National Forum

Inconsistency In Tie-Breaker Rules Between Munster And Leinster

(Oldest Posts First)

There is a distinct possibility that we could end up with a 3-way tie in both the Leinster and Munster hurling round robins. However, the tie-breaker rule in this scenario is significantly different between the two provinces. If Wexford beat Kilkenny and Galway draw with Dublin, then Kilkenny, Galway and Dublin will be tied on 6 points. In that case, the final placings are decided based only on the results of the games between these three sides. Kilkenny would have 3 points, Galway 2 and Dublin 1 - so Kilkenny qualify for the Leinster final against Wexford and Dublin are eliminated.
In Munster, overall scoring difference is used to break a 3-way tie. If scoring difference was used in the above scenario, then Dublin would finish ahead of Galway and still be in the championship.
Cork, Clare and Waterford could finish level on 4 points in Munster and if that happens, Clare will be eliminated and Cork will go through to the Munster final. However, under the Leinster rules, the outcome would be the exact opposite.
A reasonable argument can be made for either rule but it is absolutely ridiculous and unfair that the same rule is not used in both provinces.

Gaillimh_Abu (Galway) - Posts: 1003 - 21/05/2024 18:44:20    2546229

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Replying To Gaillimh_Abu:  "There is a distinct possibility that we could end up with a 3-way tie in both the Leinster and Munster hurling round robins. However, the tie-breaker rule in this scenario is significantly different between the two provinces. If Wexford beat Kilkenny and Galway draw with Dublin, then Kilkenny, Galway and Dublin will be tied on 6 points. In that case, the final placings are decided based only on the results of the games between these three sides. Kilkenny would have 3 points, Galway 2 and Dublin 1 - so Kilkenny qualify for the Leinster final against Wexford and Dublin are eliminated.
In Munster, overall scoring difference is used to break a 3-way tie. If scoring difference was used in the above scenario, then Dublin would finish ahead of Galway and still be in the championship.
Cork, Clare and Waterford could finish level on 4 points in Munster and if that happens, Clare will be eliminated and Cork will go through to the Munster final. However, under the Leinster rules, the outcome would be the exact opposite.
A reasonable argument can be made for either rule but it is absolutely ridiculous and unfair that the same rule is not used in both provinces."
It's scoring difference in games between the 3 tied sides in Leinster. So you will finish above Dublin. The reason this change was made was because many people felt it was unfair on Galway in 2019 as they were eliminated basically because they didn't beat Carlow by much.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12685 - 21/05/2024 22:04:47    2546274

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Replying To Viking66:  "It's scoring difference in games between the 3 tied sides in Leinster. So you will finish above Dublin. The reason this change was made was because many people felt it was unfair on Galway in 2019 as they were eliminated basically because they didn't beat Carlow by much."
There's also the issue that you've 2 tiers of teams in Leinster, where Carlow and Antrim would be widely considered to be below the standard of the other 4 sides. In that scenario, the tiebreak rule is well tailored for Leinster imo. One would argue though that Munster should be using the exact same methodology, with Tipp looking like a tier2 outfit in most of their championship '24 outings.

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3579 - 22/05/2024 07:08:16    2546276

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I was sure in Munster that if two teams were tied on points the team that won the head to head went forward. Then if this did not decide it due to a draw it went to scoring difference. Isn't it a shame that this is not more definitive for the public? Typical I suppose.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2713 - 22/05/2024 08:58:07    2546295

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Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "There's also the issue that you've 2 tiers of teams in Leinster, where Carlow and Antrim would be widely considered to be below the standard of the other 4 sides. In that scenario, the tiebreak rule is well tailored for Leinster imo. One would argue though that Munster should be using the exact same methodology, with Tipp looking like a tier2 outfit in most of their championship '24 outings."
Hard to argue with that but Tipperary did come out of Munster last year, so their form this year since and including the league semi final is not what we would have expected in fairness. Similarly with Waterford. Given their league campaign and history in the RR some are saying they have overachieved this year but then when you see the personnel available with the likes of TDB, Barron and Dessie to name a few, I would argue this year is more typical of the performances they should be making.

LohansRedHelmet (Clare) - Posts: 2545 - 22/05/2024 09:30:11    2546301

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Replying To LohansRedHelmet:  "Hard to argue with that but Tipperary did come out of Munster last year, so their form this year since and including the league semi final is not what we would have expected in fairness. Similarly with Waterford. Given their league campaign and history in the RR some are saying they have overachieved this year but then when you see the personnel available with the likes of TDB, Barron and Dessie to name a few, I would argue this year is more typical of the performances they should be making."
I was only messing about Tipp. Obviously, they'd whip Antrim and Carlow by as much as they'd like, if they were playing them next weekend. The Leinster system is still better than the Munster one though imo. For example, if Clare lose to Tipp (unlikely but) and Waterford Limerick draw, you've a 3way Clare Cork Waterford tie. Bizarrely, Cork win that 3way tiebreak, even though they'd lose a 2way tiebreak against both Clare and Waterford. That is a weaker methodology imo, than the Leinster one, which would still place Clare and Waterford ahead of Cork in a 3way tiebreak, and reward Clare and Waterford for their wins over Cork, and Clare for their win over Waterford.

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3579 - 22/05/2024 11:33:21    2546350

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Replying To Canuck:  "I was sure in Munster that if two teams were tied on points the team that won the head to head went forward. Then if this did not decide it due to a draw it went to scoring difference. Isn't it a shame that this is not more definitive for the public? Typical I suppose."
That is the case. It's the case in Leinster as well. If just two teams are tied on points, then the first deciding factor between them is the result of the head-to-head match. If that match was a draw, then it goes to overall scoring difference in all games.

I do agree that the different systems are confusing, though.

I was under the impression that the new 'mini league' rule approved at Congress last year meant it would apply to all competitions. It doesn't. All it does instead is set that as the default system if the relevant CCC doesn't decide to use another way instead.

Leinster are perfectly entitled to use it, and Munster, for their own reasons, are perfectly entitled to use a different way instead.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2310 - 22/05/2024 12:12:25    2546365

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Dublin and Wexford both to win thus obviating need for any mini leagues or points calculations.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2800 - 22/05/2024 13:21:23    2546385

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Replying To LohansRedHelmet:  "Hard to argue with that but Tipperary did come out of Munster last year, so their form this year since and including the league semi final is not what we would have expected in fairness. Similarly with Waterford. Given their league campaign and history in the RR some are saying they have overachieved this year but then when you see the personnel available with the likes of TDB, Barron and Dessie to name a few, I would argue this year is more typical of the performances they should be making."
What about Tipp and Waterford in 2022;-)

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12685 - 22/05/2024 13:41:41    2546389

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Replying To Canuck:  "I was sure in Munster that if two teams were tied on points the team that won the head to head went forward. Then if this did not decide it due to a draw it went to scoring difference. Isn't it a shame that this is not more definitive for the public? Typical I suppose."
Yes that is the way Canuck. 2 teams tied it's head to head in both Munster and Leinster

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12685 - 22/05/2024 13:42:26    2546392

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Dublin and Wexford both to win thus obviating need for any mini leagues or points calculations."
Like the positivity Barney!

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12685 - 22/05/2024 13:43:44    2546394

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It is the thing I would be least exercised about the inconsistency between Munster and Leinster. The relegation situation is far more of an issue.
I say this as somebody who feared we might be relegated at the start of the year, and Wexford after they lost to Antrim. How a team can win no game for years and not suffer a risk of relegation is just crazy.
And Kerry, don't get me started.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1188 - 22/05/2024 14:52:17    2546423

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "It is the thing I would be least exercised about the inconsistency between Munster and Leinster. The relegation situation is far more of an issue.
I say this as somebody who feared we might be relegated at the start of the year, and Wexford after they lost to Antrim. How a team can win no game for years and not suffer a risk of relegation is just crazy.
And Kerry, don't get me started."
The provinces are very different in terms of the competitiveness of their respective teams and while its confusing for supporters I think its reasonable they have different rules. If they eliminated the provincials you could harmonize but given how good Munster Championship is that will not happen.
I do think in Munster the head to head rule is too confusing and it should simply be scoring difference. It just doesnt seem right that if Cork, Limerick and Clare finish on same points or if Cork and Limerick finish on same points different teams would be eliminated
On relegation it makes zero sense to try to relegate one of the big five Munster teams. We need to grow the game - protect existing strong counties and bring on new ones, not put existing ones at risk. Offaly going down a few years back was bad, but it was a reflection of how low the game had sunk there and not a case of a bad year or two. Could you say the same of Waterford last year? Or Wexford if they had lost to Kilkenny last year? Thats the dilemma the Provincial Councils find themselves in. On the one hand you cant just say let the traditional counties stay up regardless of how they perform but at the same time you cant do things that weakens the game in those counties
Tipp will likely be bottom of Munster this year - would it be good for hurling to relegate Tipp if Kerry happened to win the Joe McDonogh? Or even if they didnt? Maybe a play off in the event of Kerry winning the Joe Mc but thats as far as it should go
The big change I would like to see is in the Joe McDonogh. Its a good competition but could be so much better. Expand it to say 8 teams (was it good for hurling to relegate Kildare last year? Or is it good for Meath to go down this year?) let them play 7 games. Then semis and a final for the top 4. Play it over the provincials and the AI series with the final in Croke Park either before the AI final or on the Saturday night (weekend of hurling). Let the competition breathe. Right now its being rushed to completion so the top 2 can play meaningless one off games versus the 3rd place provincial teams where they usually get hammered. This weekend we have 4 mouthwatering hurling games. Next weekend its cold turkey - none. Wouldnt it be great if next weekend we had four competitive McDonogh cup games? Then June 8/9 we have provincial hurling finals and the McDonogh final which will be completely lost and get no attention. But it has to be played quickly so they can get those ridiculous preliminary QFs out of the way. And the winners cant even celebrate it as they are out again a week later. Imagine if you had McDonogh Cup semi finals Offaly v Westmeath and Laois v Kerry for example in Thurles, on a gap weekend between the AI QFs and SFs?
And then the Saturday night before the AI, under lights, in Parnell Park or Croke Park with live TV, Laois v Offaly?
I love watching hurling but I rarely watch the McDonogh Cup games (and some are on GAAGo) as I simply dont have the time. But if they were on days that didnt clash with AI games I would watch them

Yadse (Limerick) - Posts: 19 - 22/05/2024 15:53:48    2546434

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Picking 1 line out.

"On relegation it makes zero sense to try to relegate one of the big five Munster teams. We need to grow the game - protect existing strong counties and bring on new ones, not put existing ones at risk."

Explain this to me then, did you ever care or think for one second when Laois/Offaly/Carlow/Antrim/Westmeath were relegated from the LSHC? What did that do to grow the game? What did it do to Westmeath? Why not protect Carlow then, they got a great result v Kilkenny.

How is increasing the Joe McDonagh cup ever going to help these teams develop? Its the equivalent of a pat on the head to a 5 year old picking up the ball for the first time. Fiddling while Rome burns.

Your sounding like Donal Og. Protect the Munster Championship and lament why can't other teams improve? Because when all is said and done, hurling is a closed shop at the top level. And Donal Og nor anybody else at the top level doesn't care because "I'm alright Jack" is the prevailing attitude across the whole of the Munster Championship. The epitome of which being the nonsense proposal that 4 counties should go through from Munster.

It could easily have been Wexford or Dublin in that relegation battle this year. It very nearly was Wexford last year. What should the GAA have done if either of them had been relegated?

You can't just pick and choose who you protect.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1188 - 22/05/2024 16:11:38    2546436

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Replying To Yadse:  "The provinces are very different in terms of the competitiveness of their respective teams and while its confusing for supporters I think its reasonable they have different rules. If they eliminated the provincials you could harmonize but given how good Munster Championship is that will not happen.
I do think in Munster the head to head rule is too confusing and it should simply be scoring difference. It just doesnt seem right that if Cork, Limerick and Clare finish on same points or if Cork and Limerick finish on same points different teams would be eliminated
On relegation it makes zero sense to try to relegate one of the big five Munster teams. We need to grow the game - protect existing strong counties and bring on new ones, not put existing ones at risk. Offaly going down a few years back was bad, but it was a reflection of how low the game had sunk there and not a case of a bad year or two. Could you say the same of Waterford last year? Or Wexford if they had lost to Kilkenny last year? Thats the dilemma the Provincial Councils find themselves in. On the one hand you cant just say let the traditional counties stay up regardless of how they perform but at the same time you cant do things that weakens the game in those counties
Tipp will likely be bottom of Munster this year - would it be good for hurling to relegate Tipp if Kerry happened to win the Joe McDonogh? Or even if they didnt? Maybe a play off in the event of Kerry winning the Joe Mc but thats as far as it should go
The big change I would like to see is in the Joe McDonogh. Its a good competition but could be so much better. Expand it to say 8 teams (was it good for hurling to relegate Kildare last year? Or is it good for Meath to go down this year?) let them play 7 games. Then semis and a final for the top 4. Play it over the provincials and the AI series with the final in Croke Park either before the AI final or on the Saturday night (weekend of hurling). Let the competition breathe. Right now its being rushed to completion so the top 2 can play meaningless one off games versus the 3rd place provincial teams where they usually get hammered. This weekend we have 4 mouthwatering hurling games. Next weekend its cold turkey - none. Wouldnt it be great if next weekend we had four competitive McDonogh cup games? Then June 8/9 we have provincial hurling finals and the McDonogh final which will be completely lost and get no attention. But it has to be played quickly so they can get those ridiculous preliminary QFs out of the way. And the winners cant even celebrate it as they are out again a week later. Imagine if you had McDonogh Cup semi finals Offaly v Westmeath and Laois v Kerry for example in Thurles, on a gap weekend between the AI QFs and SFs?
And then the Saturday night before the AI, under lights, in Parnell Park or Croke Park with live TV, Laois v Offaly?
I love watching hurling but I rarely watch the McDonogh Cup games (and some are on GAAGo) as I simply dont have the time. But if they were on days that didnt clash with AI games I would watch them"
Problem there is that if we had of lost to Kilkenny last year we would have been relegated. Despite winning a game. Waterford and Tipp have both finished bottom without winning a game and not been relegated. So it is lopsided. I agree I don't think there should be relegation after 1 bad season? But what about after 2? Or after 3? Where do you draw the line?
Or if you decide not to draw that line, then why is there relegation in Leinster? Why not run Leinster and Munster as seperate competitions entirely, maybe go back to straight knockout and do away with League finals, and have the AI series as a totally seperate competition too, with the Joe Mac, Christy Ring etc as 2nd, 3rd tiers? With promotion and relegation between them?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12685 - 22/05/2024 16:18:17    2546439

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "It is the thing I would be least exercised about the inconsistency between Munster and Leinster. The relegation situation is far more of an issue.
I say this as somebody who feared we might be relegated at the start of the year, and Wexford after they lost to Antrim. How a team can win no game for years and not suffer a risk of relegation is just crazy.
And Kerry, don't get me started."
The provinces are very different in terms of the competitiveness of their respective teams and while its confusing for supporters I think its reasonable they have different rules. If they eliminated the provincials you could harmonize but given how good Munster Championship is that will not happen.
I do think in Munster the head to head rule is too confusing and it should simply be scoring difference. It just doesnt seem right that if Cork, Limerick and Clare finish on same points or if Cork and Limerick finish on same points different teams would be eliminated
On relegation it makes zero sense to try to relegate one of the big five Munster teams. We need to grow the game - protect existing strong counties and bring on new ones, not put existing ones at risk. Offaly going down a few years back was bad, but it was a reflection of how low the game had sunk there and not a case of a bad year or two. Could you say the same of Waterford last year? Or Wexford if they had lost to Kilkenny last year? Thats the dilemma the Provincial Councils find themselves in. On the one hand you cant just say let the traditional counties stay up regardless of how they perform but at the same time you cant do things that weakens the game in those counties
Tipp will likely be bottom of Munster this year - would it be good for hurling to relegate Tipp if Kerry happened to win the Joe McDonogh? Or even if they didnt? Maybe a play off in the event of Kerry winning the Joe Mc but thats as far as it should go
The big change I would like to see is in the Joe McDonogh. Its a good competition but could be so much better. Expand it to say 8 teams (was it good for hurling to relegate Kildare last year? Or is it good for Meath to go down this year?) let them play 7 games. Then semis and a final for the top 4. Play it over the provincials and the AI series with the final in Croke Park either before the AI final or on the Saturday night (weekend of hurling). Let the competition breathe. Right now its being rushed to completion so the top 2 can play meaningless one off games versus the 3rd place provincial teams where they usually get hammered. This weekend we have 4 mouthwatering hurling games. Next weekend its cold turkey - none. Wouldnt it be great if next weekend we had four competitive McDonogh cup games? Then June 8/9 we have provincial hurling finals and the McDonogh final which will be completely lost and get no attention. But it has to be played quickly so they can get those ridiculous preliminary QFs out of the way. And the winners cant even celebrate it as they are out again a week later. Imagine if you had McDonogh Cup semi finals Offaly v Westmeath and Laois v Kerry for example in Thurles, on a gap weekend between the AI QFs and SFs?
And then the Saturday night before the AI, under lights, in Parnell Park or Croke Park with live TV, Laois v Offaly?
I love watching hurling but I rarely watch the McDonogh Cup games (and some are on GAAGo) as I simply dont have the time. But if they were on days that didnt clash with AI games I would watch them

Yadse (Limerick) - Posts: 19 - 22/05/2024 16:28:48    2546441

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "It is the thing I would be least exercised about the inconsistency between Munster and Leinster. The relegation situation is far more of an issue.
I say this as somebody who feared we might be relegated at the start of the year, and Wexford after they lost to Antrim. How a team can win no game for years and not suffer a risk of relegation is just crazy.
And Kerry, don't get me started."
Yes. Bottom team in Munster ought to face the same relegation as Leinster, Ridiculous that they be immune.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2800 - 22/05/2024 18:54:45    2546473

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Replying To Yadse:  "The provinces are very different in terms of the competitiveness of their respective teams and while its confusing for supporters I think its reasonable they have different rules. If they eliminated the provincials you could harmonize but given how good Munster Championship is that will not happen.
I do think in Munster the head to head rule is too confusing and it should simply be scoring difference. It just doesnt seem right that if Cork, Limerick and Clare finish on same points or if Cork and Limerick finish on same points different teams would be eliminated
On relegation it makes zero sense to try to relegate one of the big five Munster teams. We need to grow the game - protect existing strong counties and bring on new ones, not put existing ones at risk. Offaly going down a few years back was bad, but it was a reflection of how low the game had sunk there and not a case of a bad year or two. Could you say the same of Waterford last year? Or Wexford if they had lost to Kilkenny last year? Thats the dilemma the Provincial Councils find themselves in. On the one hand you cant just say let the traditional counties stay up regardless of how they perform but at the same time you cant do things that weakens the game in those counties
Tipp will likely be bottom of Munster this year - would it be good for hurling to relegate Tipp if Kerry happened to win the Joe McDonogh? Or even if they didnt? Maybe a play off in the event of Kerry winning the Joe Mc but thats as far as it should go
The big change I would like to see is in the Joe McDonogh. Its a good competition but could be so much better. Expand it to say 8 teams (was it good for hurling to relegate Kildare last year? Or is it good for Meath to go down this year?) let them play 7 games. Then semis and a final for the top 4. Play it over the provincials and the AI series with the final in Croke Park either before the AI final or on the Saturday night (weekend of hurling). Let the competition breathe. Right now its being rushed to completion so the top 2 can play meaningless one off games versus the 3rd place provincial teams where they usually get hammered. This weekend we have 4 mouthwatering hurling games. Next weekend its cold turkey - none. Wouldnt it be great if next weekend we had four competitive McDonogh cup games? Then June 8/9 we have provincial hurling finals and the McDonogh final which will be completely lost and get no attention. But it has to be played quickly so they can get those ridiculous preliminary QFs out of the way. And the winners cant even celebrate it as they are out again a week later. Imagine if you had McDonogh Cup semi finals Offaly v Westmeath and Laois v Kerry for example in Thurles, on a gap weekend between the AI QFs and SFs?
And then the Saturday night before the AI, under lights, in Parnell Park or Croke Park with live TV, Laois v Offaly?
I love watching hurling but I rarely watch the McDonogh Cup games (and some are on GAAGo) as I simply dont have the time. But if they were on days that didnt clash with AI games I would watch them"
Yes, it made sense to relegate Kildare because they have a great chance of winning the Christy Ring, but they are not good enough to win a Joe Mac at the moment.

You have to have relegation. Or it gets stale.

CARPS (Carlow) - Posts: 633 - 22/05/2024 19:57:35    2546482

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Look we can crow all we like about the Munster championship and I do but it is not the best way to decide the All Ireland championship. It does not give the second tier teams the best chance. Ask any team is winning the province more important than getting to the All Ireland series.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2713 - 22/05/2024 20:02:15    2546483

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Replying To CARPS:  "Yes, it made sense to relegate Kildare because they have a great chance of winning the Christy Ring, but they are not good enough to win a Joe Mac at the moment.

You have to have relegation. Or it gets stale."
It made sense to relegate Kildare because rules are rules.

But remember Kildare were in the Division 2 final last year as well and lost narrowly. Almost created an anomaly where a Division 1 team would have been playing in the Christy Ring.

It makes little sense for 11 teams to be in the top tier with only 6 in each tier under it. When the tiers were brought in first there were 10 teams in the second tier (then the Christy Ring). It was the right number then and is probably the right number now.

There should be a relegation play off between the bottom team in Leinster and the bottom team in Munster each year to decide who goes down.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 303 - 23/05/2024 12:15:43    2546565

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