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Power Shift In Hurling. Here To Stay?

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For 100 years there has been a dominance of the great game by the big 3 of Kilkenny, Cork and Tipperary. In that time there has been periods of great success with the likes of Wexford, Galway, Offaly and Clare having teams that won the All Ireland more than once in a short period of time. These successes were always met with the reinvigorating and further dominance by the big 3.

Since 2018 Limerick have turned hurling on its head. The minute detail to preparation involving systematic youth development within an organised structure covering a broad facet of all aspects of the game. The skill development of hurling to a fine detail from 13 years of age for those young players showing early potential and blended into an academy structure. The introduction at that early age of the basic fundamentals of strength and conditioning, nutrition, video analysis, group dynamics, individual preparation, mental preparation and lifestyle choices.

It might well be coincidental that Limericks novel approach 13 years ago was massively supported with a generational group of hurlers all at the same time but the approach none the less has seen unparalleled success for a county outside the top 3. 5 All irelands in 6 years. 5 in a row munster titles. 3 National league titles. 13 finals won from 13. That is an unprecedented amount of success even for the big 3.

I was lucky to be involved in a limerick minor setup in the early 90s. I can say the preparation was world's apart from what I've touched on. We were duly beaten by cork by 17 points and happy to have got a jersey.

So to the question at hand. Will this be a moment in time that will be looked at in 50 years like the great wexford team of the rackards? The great back to back Galway team of the 80s. The Dooley driven Offaly team of the 90s and the Dalo led Clare team of the same decade?

We see around the country that significant structures now are developing in clare, wexford, new stadium in Waterford , huge back room team in Galway. Great strides are being made in Offaly. Dublin are a sleeping giant with an impressive 7 point win over Galway u20s last night. Carlow drawing with kilkenny. Antrim beating wexford. Munster a constant bear pit and completely unpredictable.

My opinion is that for an awful long time certain countys didn't prepare teams to any proper degree and Limerick have now shown what can be Done with proper investment, coaching, preparation. There is plenty of investment in all inter County set ups now. Has the playing field been levelled for good?

daveboy (Limerick) - Posts: 1197 - 16/05/2024 08:34:02    2545016

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Replying To daveboy:  "For 100 years there has been a dominance of the great game by the big 3 of Kilkenny, Cork and Tipperary. In that time there has been periods of great success with the likes of Wexford, Galway, Offaly and Clare having teams that won the All Ireland more than once in a short period of time. These successes were always met with the reinvigorating and further dominance by the big 3.

Since 2018 Limerick have turned hurling on its head. The minute detail to preparation involving systematic youth development within an organised structure covering a broad facet of all aspects of the game. The skill development of hurling to a fine detail from 13 years of age for those young players showing early potential and blended into an academy structure. The introduction at that early age of the basic fundamentals of strength and conditioning, nutrition, video analysis, group dynamics, individual preparation, mental preparation and lifestyle choices.

It might well be coincidental that Limericks novel approach 13 years ago was massively supported with a generational group of hurlers all at the same time but the approach none the less has seen unparalleled success for a county outside the top 3. 5 All irelands in 6 years. 5 in a row munster titles. 3 National league titles. 13 finals won from 13. That is an unprecedented amount of success even for the big 3.

I was lucky to be involved in a limerick minor setup in the early 90s. I can say the preparation was world's apart from what I've touched on. We were duly beaten by cork by 17 points and happy to have got a jersey.

So to the question at hand. Will this be a moment in time that will be looked at in 50 years like the great wexford team of the rackards? The great back to back Galway team of the 80s. The Dooley driven Offaly team of the 90s and the Dalo led Clare team of the same decade?

We see around the country that significant structures now are developing in clare, wexford, new stadium in Waterford , huge back room team in Galway. Great strides are being made in Offaly. Dublin are a sleeping giant with an impressive 7 point win over Galway u20s last night. Carlow drawing with kilkenny. Antrim beating wexford. Munster a constant bear pit and completely unpredictable.

My opinion is that for an awful long time certain countys didn't prepare teams to any proper degree and Limerick have now shown what can be Done with proper investment, coaching, preparation. There is plenty of investment in all inter County set ups now. Has the playing field been levelled for good?"
The playing field is alot leveller now than before for sure. and Ive no doubt it will stay. The pessimists will say hurling is dying but I say the opposite. Offaly on the rise again is great to see and hopefully Dublin can improve on their status soon. It really does take generations to make hurling stick in a county, as we well know. Generations of hidings and learnings before it takes hold.

ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 708 - 16/05/2024 09:41:14    2545033

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Expand on "There is plenty of investment in all inter County set ups now". An even playing field between say Limerick and Carlow?

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1785 - 16/05/2024 10:05:48    2545043

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Replying To daveboy:  "For 100 years there has been a dominance of the great game by the big 3 of Kilkenny, Cork and Tipperary. In that time there has been periods of great success with the likes of Wexford, Galway, Offaly and Clare having teams that won the All Ireland more than once in a short period of time. These successes were always met with the reinvigorating and further dominance by the big 3.

Since 2018 Limerick have turned hurling on its head. The minute detail to preparation involving systematic youth development within an organised structure covering a broad facet of all aspects of the game. The skill development of hurling to a fine detail from 13 years of age for those young players showing early potential and blended into an academy structure. The introduction at that early age of the basic fundamentals of strength and conditioning, nutrition, video analysis, group dynamics, individual preparation, mental preparation and lifestyle choices.

It might well be coincidental that Limericks novel approach 13 years ago was massively supported with a generational group of hurlers all at the same time but the approach none the less has seen unparalleled success for a county outside the top 3. 5 All irelands in 6 years. 5 in a row munster titles. 3 National league titles. 13 finals won from 13. That is an unprecedented amount of success even for the big 3.

I was lucky to be involved in a limerick minor setup in the early 90s. I can say the preparation was world's apart from what I've touched on. We were duly beaten by cork by 17 points and happy to have got a jersey.

So to the question at hand. Will this be a moment in time that will be looked at in 50 years like the great wexford team of the rackards? The great back to back Galway team of the 80s. The Dooley driven Offaly team of the 90s and the Dalo led Clare team of the same decade?

We see around the country that significant structures now are developing in clare, wexford, new stadium in Waterford , huge back room team in Galway. Great strides are being made in Offaly. Dublin are a sleeping giant with an impressive 7 point win over Galway u20s last night. Carlow drawing with kilkenny. Antrim beating wexford. Munster a constant bear pit and completely unpredictable.

My opinion is that for an awful long time certain countys didn't prepare teams to any proper degree and Limerick have now shown what can be Done with proper investment, coaching, preparation. There is plenty of investment in all inter County set ups now. Has the playing field been levelled for good?"
Investment, tell what county besides Dublin will be able to compete financially with limerick. 2 centres of excellence and another one bought. While other counties go cap in hand to supporters. It's gone like the premier league now the rich get better while the rest go broke trying to keep up.

2maroonjerseys (Galway) - Posts: 98 - 16/05/2024 10:07:39    2545045

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Replying To daveboy:  "For 100 years there has been a dominance of the great game by the big 3 of Kilkenny, Cork and Tipperary. In that time there has been periods of great success with the likes of Wexford, Galway, Offaly and Clare having teams that won the All Ireland more than once in a short period of time. These successes were always met with the reinvigorating and further dominance by the big 3.

Since 2018 Limerick have turned hurling on its head. The minute detail to preparation involving systematic youth development within an organised structure covering a broad facet of all aspects of the game. The skill development of hurling to a fine detail from 13 years of age for those young players showing early potential and blended into an academy structure. The introduction at that early age of the basic fundamentals of strength and conditioning, nutrition, video analysis, group dynamics, individual preparation, mental preparation and lifestyle choices.

It might well be coincidental that Limericks novel approach 13 years ago was massively supported with a generational group of hurlers all at the same time but the approach none the less has seen unparalleled success for a county outside the top 3. 5 All irelands in 6 years. 5 in a row munster titles. 3 National league titles. 13 finals won from 13. That is an unprecedented amount of success even for the big 3.

I was lucky to be involved in a limerick minor setup in the early 90s. I can say the preparation was world's apart from what I've touched on. We were duly beaten by cork by 17 points and happy to have got a jersey.

So to the question at hand. Will this be a moment in time that will be looked at in 50 years like the great wexford team of the rackards? The great back to back Galway team of the 80s. The Dooley driven Offaly team of the 90s and the Dalo led Clare team of the same decade?

We see around the country that significant structures now are developing in clare, wexford, new stadium in Waterford , huge back room team in Galway. Great strides are being made in Offaly. Dublin are a sleeping giant with an impressive 7 point win over Galway u20s last night. Carlow drawing with kilkenny. Antrim beating wexford. Munster a constant bear pit and completely unpredictable.

My opinion is that for an awful long time certain countys didn't prepare teams to any proper degree and Limerick have now shown what can be Done with proper investment, coaching, preparation. There is plenty of investment in all inter County set ups now. Has the playing field been levelled for good?"
It's hard to know really. What I will say though is success generally breeds success. Kids in Limerick are growing up now with a mentality that they are in charge Which is huge.

But make no mistake, Kilkenny are looking at this and plotting as they always do.

Back in 96 Liam Griffin gave a speech in Wexford imploring everyone to get involved. That we'd returned to the promised land, but this was the beginning not the end. We didn't listen.

Take note in Limerick, the second you drop the ball the big three are waiting in the wings to punish you.

Nonetheless, Limerick have been an inspiration to us all. If you can do it, why not us?

Here's hoping.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3148 - 16/05/2024 10:15:38    2545050

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Replying To daveboy:  "For 100 years there has been a dominance of the great game by the big 3 of Kilkenny, Cork and Tipperary. In that time there has been periods of great success with the likes of Wexford, Galway, Offaly and Clare having teams that won the All Ireland more than once in a short period of time. These successes were always met with the reinvigorating and further dominance by the big 3.

Since 2018 Limerick have turned hurling on its head. The minute detail to preparation involving systematic youth development within an organised structure covering a broad facet of all aspects of the game. The skill development of hurling to a fine detail from 13 years of age for those young players showing early potential and blended into an academy structure. The introduction at that early age of the basic fundamentals of strength and conditioning, nutrition, video analysis, group dynamics, individual preparation, mental preparation and lifestyle choices.

It might well be coincidental that Limericks novel approach 13 years ago was massively supported with a generational group of hurlers all at the same time but the approach none the less has seen unparalleled success for a county outside the top 3. 5 All irelands in 6 years. 5 in a row munster titles. 3 National league titles. 13 finals won from 13. That is an unprecedented amount of success even for the big 3.

I was lucky to be involved in a limerick minor setup in the early 90s. I can say the preparation was world's apart from what I've touched on. We were duly beaten by cork by 17 points and happy to have got a jersey.

So to the question at hand. Will this be a moment in time that will be looked at in 50 years like the great wexford team of the rackards? The great back to back Galway team of the 80s. The Dooley driven Offaly team of the 90s and the Dalo led Clare team of the same decade?

We see around the country that significant structures now are developing in clare, wexford, new stadium in Waterford , huge back room team in Galway. Great strides are being made in Offaly. Dublin are a sleeping giant with an impressive 7 point win over Galway u20s last night. Carlow drawing with kilkenny. Antrim beating wexford. Munster a constant bear pit and completely unpredictable.

My opinion is that for an awful long time certain countys didn't prepare teams to any proper degree and Limerick have now shown what can be Done with proper investment, coaching, preparation. There is plenty of investment in all inter County set ups now. Has the playing field been levelled for good?"
Interesting post, daveboy, and plenty of food for thought. I will say this much - Limerick's successes to date have been phenomenal. The achievements of the great Wexford, Galway, Offaly and Clare teams of the past 70 years will always be celebrated, and rightly so, but even if this Limerick team wins nothing more (which I don't believe) their achievements will stand the test of time and will be remembered as a very unique group of players. In general, the work being done in the other counties you mention will, if sustained and adequately resourced, go a long way towards ensuring that more teams will have a realistic chance of winning the big prizes and producing a more level playing field.

midlands (Westmeath) - Posts: 583 - 16/05/2024 10:30:17    2545052

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "It's hard to know really. What I will say though is success generally breeds success. Kids in Limerick are growing up now with a mentality that they are in charge Which is huge.

But make no mistake, Kilkenny are looking at this and plotting as they always do.

Back in 96 Liam Griffin gave a speech in Wexford imploring everyone to get involved. That we'd returned to the promised land, but this was the beginning not the end. We didn't listen.

Take note in Limerick, the second you drop the ball the big three are waiting in the wings to punish you.

Nonetheless, Limerick have been an inspiration to us all. If you can do it, why not us?

Here's hoping."
I think you're spot on regarding success. 20 yrs ago, young fellas in Limerick wanted to play rugby for Munster.. Now hurling rules the roost.

I drive through Southill in Limerick regularly for work and saw 3 young lads playing hurling recently. I'm all my years, I've never seen lads having a puc around in this area.. It's always soccer.
It was a very heart warming sight and bodes well for the future. My hope is that when this team go into decline enough work will have been done to sustain us as legitimate challengers..hopefully winning an all Ireland every few years and not letting decades go by again.

skillet (Limerick) - Posts: 1103 - 16/05/2024 11:17:58    2545068

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "It's hard to know really. What I will say though is success generally breeds success. Kids in Limerick are growing up now with a mentality that they are in charge Which is huge.

But make no mistake, Kilkenny are looking at this and plotting as they always do.

Back in 96 Liam Griffin gave a speech in Wexford imploring everyone to get involved. That we'd returned to the promised land, but this was the beginning not the end. We didn't listen.

Take note in Limerick, the second you drop the ball the big three are waiting in the wings to punish you.

Nonetheless, Limerick have been an inspiration to us all. If you can do it, why not us?

Here's hoping."
Cats will always be there, but they are seemingly in relative slump at underage, would you not think?

Their senior club is of such a standard though that it will bring on lots of lads.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3127 - 16/05/2024 12:01:51    2545079

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Replying To daveboy:  "For 100 years there has been a dominance of the great game by the big 3 of Kilkenny, Cork and Tipperary. In that time there has been periods of great success with the likes of Wexford, Galway, Offaly and Clare having teams that won the All Ireland more than once in a short period of time. These successes were always met with the reinvigorating and further dominance by the big 3.

Since 2018 Limerick have turned hurling on its head. The minute detail to preparation involving systematic youth development within an organised structure covering a broad facet of all aspects of the game. The skill development of hurling to a fine detail from 13 years of age for those young players showing early potential and blended into an academy structure. The introduction at that early age of the basic fundamentals of strength and conditioning, nutrition, video analysis, group dynamics, individual preparation, mental preparation and lifestyle choices.

It might well be coincidental that Limericks novel approach 13 years ago was massively supported with a generational group of hurlers all at the same time but the approach none the less has seen unparalleled success for a county outside the top 3. 5 All irelands in 6 years. 5 in a row munster titles. 3 National league titles. 13 finals won from 13. That is an unprecedented amount of success even for the big 3.

I was lucky to be involved in a limerick minor setup in the early 90s. I can say the preparation was world's apart from what I've touched on. We were duly beaten by cork by 17 points and happy to have got a jersey.

So to the question at hand. Will this be a moment in time that will be looked at in 50 years like the great wexford team of the rackards? The great back to back Galway team of the 80s. The Dooley driven Offaly team of the 90s and the Dalo led Clare team of the same decade?

We see around the country that significant structures now are developing in clare, wexford, new stadium in Waterford , huge back room team in Galway. Great strides are being made in Offaly. Dublin are a sleeping giant with an impressive 7 point win over Galway u20s last night. Carlow drawing with kilkenny. Antrim beating wexford. Munster a constant bear pit and completely unpredictable.

My opinion is that for an awful long time certain countys didn't prepare teams to any proper degree and Limerick have now shown what can be Done with proper investment, coaching, preparation. There is plenty of investment in all inter County set ups now. Has the playing field been levelled for good?"
Statistics show that since 2000, only 2 teams dominated, Kilkenny and Limerick. Dublin last won all Ireland 1938, Waterford 1959, Wexford 1996, so apart from Limerick there hasn't been any great breakthrough. Waterford in particular have had great teams in late fifties and early sixties, and in the noughties. Limerick's all conquering under 20's team were successfully and quickly transitioned to senior, and for that they deserve great credit.

Ryanteam (Cork) - Posts: 376 - 16/05/2024 12:11:02    2545082

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Cats will always be there, but they are seemingly in relative slump at underage, would you not think?

Their senior club is of such a standard though that it will bring on lots of lads."
You could say that by their own standards but they still won and under 20 in 2022 and were in minor finals in 18,19 and 20.

You just don't get bad Kilkenny teams.

You could say the current senior group are poor by their standards too but they're still in all Ireland finals, winning the league last year and have 4 Leinsters in a row.

They're either very good or excellent.

In spite of all the talk about Clare Kilkenny are still beating them when it counts.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3148 - 16/05/2024 13:03:15    2545092

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Cats will always be there, but they are seemingly in relative slump at underage, would you not think?

Their senior club is of such a standard though that it will bring on lots of lads."
The cats also are in the unique position that they are a unicode county which is definitely a major help.

Overthebar53 (Carlow) - Posts: 284 - 16/05/2024 13:26:02    2545098

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Replying To Ryanteam:  "Statistics show that since 2000, only 2 teams dominated, Kilkenny and Limerick. Dublin last won all Ireland 1938, Waterford 1959, Wexford 1996, so apart from Limerick there hasn't been any great breakthrough. Waterford in particular have had great teams in late fifties and early sixties, and in the noughties. Limerick's all conquering under 20's team were successfully and quickly transitioned to senior, and for that they deserve great credit."
You're being a little hard on your own counties back to back in 04/05.

Sean og, Curran, Sullivan, Dean, the o Connors are all legends of the era.

03 semi final was the best game I ever saw bar none.

The less said about the following year the better.

It's quite remarkable the Waterford team of that era didn't manage to win one. McGrath, brown, mullane, shanahan, the brick. Also legends.

04 is probably the only time I wished there was no back door. A Wexford Waterford final would have been an unbelievable occasion had it came to be.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3148 - 16/05/2024 13:43:15    2545104

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I would be a little concerned that once this current crop of Limerick players have finished playing that we may struggle to win All Irelands again on a regular basis. It has been a remarkable achievement to date but I don't think hurling is ingrained into society as much as it is in the big three counties. Other sports such as soccer and rugby are played in much higher numbers in Limerick compared to Tipp and Kilkenny and maybe less so Cork. From coaching kids you will generally see that a child will be good at all sports and in Tipp and Kilkenny hurling is no.1 priority sport. The amalgamation of alot of rural clubs in Limerick at underage level is very concerning indicating reduced playing numbers. Go back 30 years ago every child played hurling up until U16/18 as there was little other sports, activities. Most rural areas now have soccer teams and parents will send children to other activities if they are not competitive at hurling. Having a manager like JKiely is akin to what Alex Ferguson did at Man Utd keeping players together and having huge success. Man U have slipped back to the pre Fergie status now and I only hope this does not happen Limerick. Other counties are well prepared now and have caught up on academies. The U17 and U20 results this season are concerning also. We regularly got hammered at minor/U21 level back to the hands of Tipp and Cork in the 90s/00s mainly down to poor preparation and the academies certainly helped greatly improve this. We will need to continue to work hard in schools and helping rural clubs as much as possible to ensure we never go 45 years again without an All Ireland.

journeyman (Limerick) - Posts: 141 - 16/05/2024 13:48:21    2545108

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Replying To Ryanteam:  "Statistics show that since 2000, only 2 teams dominated, Kilkenny and Limerick. Dublin last won all Ireland 1938, Waterford 1959, Wexford 1996, so apart from Limerick there hasn't been any great breakthrough. Waterford in particular have had great teams in late fifties and early sixties, and in the noughties. Limerick's all conquering under 20's team were successfully and quickly transitioned to senior, and for that they deserve great credit."
The fact that it was u21 at the time probably made that transition easier though.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 16/05/2024 14:12:24    2545114

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "You could say that by their own standards but they still won and under 20 in 2022 and were in minor finals in 18,19 and 20.

You just don't get bad Kilkenny teams.

You could say the current senior group are poor by their standards too but they're still in all Ireland finals, winning the league last year and have 4 Leinsters in a row.

They're either very good or excellent.

In spite of all the talk about Clare Kilkenny are still beating them when it counts."
All relative I suppose. We live in hope!

I do think they might go into relative decline for a few years at senior once TJ and a few others finally head into the sunset.

Always got the impression that Cody stayed on one last year to see how they might do against Limerick and that Lyng has been relatively conservative in making changes since.

I'd have expected that Drennan for example and a few other underage stars might have been more central by this stage.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3127 - 16/05/2024 14:22:06    2545119

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Replying To Overthebar53:  "The cats also are in the unique position that they are a unicode county which is definitely a major help."
Maybe so, but worth bearing in mind:

- the hurling-dominated area of County Cork is still far larger than the whole of County Kilkenny

- Take the football area pockets out of Tipperary, and you're still left with an area that's far larger than Kilkenny too. County Tipp as a whole is more than twice the size of County Kilkenny.

The whole "Kilkenny only play hurling so no wonder they're good at it" argument might have some merit, but it's often overstated.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2622 - 16/05/2024 14:34:36    2545122

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Great to see a change of the guard and It is remarkable what Limerick have been able to do. But the infrastructure you mention is professional level sport and investment is the key word. Limerick are blessed to have the likes of JP McManus on board. Likewise most counties are hoping they have a few millionaire businessmen willing to invest in the county set up. I know Roscommon would be lost but for two in particular and probably could do with a few more. But aside from Dublin, who when things aren't going well will have the government to financially back them almost like Real Madrid falling back on the house of Bourbon, every other county is dependent on having a rich donor to fund a professional sports model. First of all it can't be equitable as the bigger population counties are more likely to have more potential donors to call on but also is it sustainable? If a county is very reliant on such a donation and for whatever reason that stream ends, then things get very difficult given the money being spent now. As a Galway poster says, the money now needed to catch up with the top teams is immense and financially risky. That's taking nothing away from the good way Dublin or Limerick or whoever spends the money. You could have all the money in the world and it can easily be squandered.

MachaireConnacht (Roscommon) - Posts: 999 - 16/05/2024 16:15:43    2545143

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Maybe so, but worth bearing in mind:

- the hurling-dominated area of County Cork is still far larger than the whole of County Kilkenny

- Take the football area pockets out of Tipperary, and you're still left with an area that's far larger than Kilkenny too. County Tipp as a whole is more than twice the size of County Kilkenny.

The whole "Kilkenny only play hurling so no wonder they're good at it" argument might have some merit, but it's often overstated."
Defenitely, and keep in mind the vast majority of counties prioritise football over hurling, most of them considerably so, so it's ironic listening to football people criticise kilkenny for only focusing on one code.
Kilkenny may not do football but they're still an amazing gaa county imo.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1942 - 16/05/2024 16:19:51    2545145

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "All relative I suppose. We live in hope!

I do think they might go into relative decline for a few years at senior once TJ and a few others finally head into the sunset.

Always got the impression that Cody stayed on one last year to see how they might do against Limerick and that Lyng has been relatively conservative in making changes since.

I'd have expected that Drennan for example and a few other underage stars might have been more central by this stage."
He's not good enough from play to be central. He's still only young though his time might come if he works hard at it.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 16/05/2024 17:37:31    2545164

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Maybe so, but worth bearing in mind:

- the hurling-dominated area of County Cork is still far larger than the whole of County Kilkenny

- Take the football area pockets out of Tipperary, and you're still left with an area that's far larger than Kilkenny too. County Tipp as a whole is more than twice the size of County Kilkenny.

The whole "Kilkenny only play hurling so no wonder they're good at it" argument might have some merit, but it's often overstated."
People forget its a relatively small county even compared to Wexford. It has a fraction of the population of Dublin, Cork, Galway and Limerick. Around half Limericks population. And around 60000 less than Tipp or Wexford. 20000 odd less than Waterford or Clare.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 16/05/2024 17:41:45    2545165

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