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Replying To arock:  "O'Rourke said Provincials are a shambles but many would argue its the counties in Leinster that are a shambles. How can counties like Meath and Kildare with decent populations struggle so much? I remember in the Geraghty era a full house between Dublin and Meath, not now. Dublin were wasteful, seriously sloppy but Meath were worse. Football needs a strong Meath and Kildare something just doesnt stack up."
You're probably right arock. Meath, Kildare and other Leinster counties have to shoulder a fair share of responsibility.

I do wonder what impact the past 20 years have had on the mentality of players in those counties. Take a 25 year old from Meath - he was 10 the last time Meath bet Dublin and have lost every game since by an average of (I'm guessing) 10 points. That has to be having an impact on belief, motivation etc.

Paul Flynn talked about the Derry example last night on the Sunday game - and again he's not wrong but those Derry players haven't been watching Derry going out to Croke Park year after year to get humiliated - and I think it has a spiraling effect.

We can talk all day about structures etc. but it appears most people don't think this format is working. Credit to the GAA for trying something different

Cbar (Mayo) - Posts: 309 - 15/04/2024 09:35:19    2537911

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Replying To arock:  "O'Rourke said Provincials are a shambles but many would argue its the counties in Leinster that are a shambles. How can counties like Meath and Kildare with decent populations struggle so much? I remember in the Geraghty era a full house between Dublin and Meath, not now. Dublin were wasteful, seriously sloppy but Meath were worse. Football needs a strong Meath and Kildare something just doesnt stack up."
Oh I agree Kildare and Meath should be doing much better.Whatever about football in general Leinster needs both Meath and Kildare going well.However the truth is as you say Arock Dubs were sloppy yesterday and without the best midfielder of his generation and still won by 16 pts.I dont know the remedy but even Dublin fans not going anymore.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3717 - 15/04/2024 09:51:52    2537919

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Replying To Cbar:  "You're probably right arock. Meath, Kildare and other Leinster counties have to shoulder a fair share of responsibility.

I do wonder what impact the past 20 years have had on the mentality of players in those counties. Take a 25 year old from Meath - he was 10 the last time Meath bet Dublin and have lost every game since by an average of (I'm guessing) 10 points. That has to be having an impact on belief, motivation etc.

Paul Flynn talked about the Derry example last night on the Sunday game - and again he's not wrong but those Derry players haven't been watching Derry going out to Croke Park year after year to get humiliated - and I think it has a spiraling effect.

We can talk all day about structures etc. but it appears most people don't think this format is working. Credit to the GAA for trying something different"
Or is that too easy of an excuse to make. No disrepect to Kildare but given Meaths history, is there not a burning anger almost in them that would drive them into ending that Dublin dominance. Like those Meath and Kildare young lads have no fear of Dublin coming up through the underage ranks. Derry no great shakes for years. That crop of players now would have been very young when Derry last played in an Ulster before 2022. Watched their team slide to Div 4. Derry haven't anything on the history of Meath. Before the current crop of players they only managed to win one Ulster after 1993 and 93 was their only AI success. They now play with the confidence of a county that has multiple All Irelands.

MachaireConnacht (Roscommon) - Posts: 870 - 15/04/2024 10:00:25    2537926

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The issue in Leinster is that Dublin have been so dominant since 2011 or so that it has just sucked the life out of it. The atmosphere is terrible, teams know they can't win and physiologically it's just damning. Back in the 2000s, we all knew Dublin were the best team in Leinster, but you always felt like a good performance and you could catch them. That can't happen anymore.

That 2011-2020 Dublin team is arguably the greatest team ever, They've won 8 All Irelands during that period, and you could have put them in any province and the result would have been the same. Dublin don't take their foot off the gas, they've turned it into an art. There's only about 2 teams capable of beating them in the country, and even then they have to be at their best. So the hope of a team in Leinster catching them is slim to none.

They've just an array of talent - look at their bench yesterday, Cormac Costello, Paddy Small, Killian O'Gara, all of these would be starting forwards for any county in Ireland. James McCarthy on the bench too, Fenton suspended, Dublin have a serious amount of talent.

I do agree Meath and Kildare need to get their houses in order and for Meath it is a very young panel and there have been signs of something - but both teams have had decent underage success it just hasn't translated through yet. Meath won an All Ireland minor in 2021, a lot of those players are involved in the U20s.

I'd be more worried about Kildare, they've been involved in 3 U20 All Ireland finals since 2018, and won two of them - yet they've regressed to a Div 3 team. Nothing seems to have come through, and they definitely need a change in management.

But the issue is the provincial system just lacks balance and I don't know why we continue to obsesses over it. In no other sport would you have 32 counties split into 4 groups of 12, 9, 6 and 7 (including London & NY). Doesn't make any sense.

hyperache (Meath) - Posts: 215 - 15/04/2024 10:11:42    2537934

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Replying To arock:  "O'Rourke said Provincials are a shambles but many would argue its the counties in Leinster that are a shambles. How can counties like Meath and Kildare with decent populations struggle so much? I remember in the Geraghty era a full house between Dublin and Meath, not now. Dublin were wasteful, seriously sloppy but Meath were worse. Football needs a strong Meath and Kildare something just doesnt stack up."
I agree with a lot of that. Leinster is a very hard watch, but I'd lay a lot more of the responsibility for it at doors of Meath and Kildare.
How can counties like Mayo for years, Derry currently and even Monaghan be very competitive with Dublin at times, yet Meath and Kildare are doing well when they keep the margin of defeat below 15 points?
Neither of them have made a real dent in the championship since Kildare's semi-final in 2010. Kildare's win against Mayo in Newbridge probably being the only big result by either of them in that time.
In an era where teams have reached All-Ireland semi-finals through qualifiers and round robins, neither of them have even come close to doing so.
Their league results over the same period are similar.
I'm not trying to run either county down, but they are massively underperforming compared to counties like Mayo, Tyrone, Monaghan, Roscommon, Donegal etc. Never mind Dublin.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2080 - 15/04/2024 10:33:17    2537943

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "I agree with a lot of that. Leinster is a very hard watch, but I'd lay a lot more of the responsibility for it at doors of Meath and Kildare.
How can counties like Mayo for years, Derry currently and even Monaghan be very competitive with Dublin at times, yet Meath and Kildare are doing well when they keep the margin of defeat below 15 points?
Neither of them have made a real dent in the championship since Kildare's semi-final in 2010. Kildare's win against Mayo in Newbridge probably being the only big result by either of them in that time.
In an era where teams have reached All-Ireland semi-finals through qualifiers and round robins, neither of them have even come close to doing so.
Their league results over the same period are similar.
I'm not trying to run either county down, but they are massively underperforming compared to counties like Mayo, Tyrone, Monaghan, Roscommon, Donegal etc. Never mind Dublin."
I too would like Kildare and Meath to be more competitive in Leinster.

There's an annual discussion on here at Leinster championship time about Dublin's dominance.

I make the point every year they if you put Dublin in any province and they'd be just as dominant - as proven in the All Ireland

In all other provinces there's a big prize to win. Leinster is falling well behind as Dublin win at a canter.

Kildare have had a decent bit of under age success in the past few years. The trick is to work out how to transmit that to senior success while coming up against a professional outfit and pumping all your own cash into a long overdue stadium redevelopment.

I think the GAA can help by putting a limit on intercounty spending. But until that happens it's up to the lads themselves.

If I were the Kildare manager I'd have ignored the championship in favour of the league and trust that the championship performances would then come. That's what Jack O'Connor was doing; however our management team are now doing the opposite.

Hope Springs eternal in GAA - and I believe the talent is in Kildare to beat Dublin but it needs to be supported better. If Derry can come from a low ebb to be genuine challengers there's no reason why Kildare or Meath can't aim to do the same.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 303 - 15/04/2024 15:59:34    2538127

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Has the growth in popularity of rugby been a factor at all? Reason I ask is I recently got chatting to some Meath folks who were up here visiting, and I brought up Meath GAA. The man rolled his eyes and swiftly moved the topic of conversation on to Leinster rugby.

Obviously that was just one person, but with Dublin hooevering up every Leinster title going at senior level for the last 14 years, has interest in the GAA waned from what it used to be in the likes of Kildare and Meath? It's a funny one because I would have thought that some success at underage level like Kildare have had recently would've created a bit of buzz and momentum. But it's backwards they seem to be going?

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9238 - 15/04/2024 16:29:50    2538137

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Replying To brianb:  "I too would like Kildare and Meath to be more competitive in Leinster.

There's an annual discussion on here at Leinster championship time about Dublin's dominance.

I make the point every year they if you put Dublin in any province and they'd be just as dominant - as proven in the All Ireland

In all other provinces there's a big prize to win. Leinster is falling well behind as Dublin win at a canter.

Kildare have had a decent bit of under age success in the past few years. The trick is to work out how to transmit that to senior success while coming up against a professional outfit and pumping all your own cash into a long overdue stadium redevelopment.

I think the GAA can help by putting a limit on intercounty spending. But until that happens it's up to the lads themselves.

If I were the Kildare manager I'd have ignored the championship in favour of the league and trust that the championship performances would then come. That's what Jack O'Connor was doing; however our management team are now doing the opposite.

Hope Springs eternal in GAA - and I believe the talent is in Kildare to beat Dublin but it needs to be supported better. If Derry can come from a low ebb to be genuine challengers there's no reason why Kildare or Meath can't aim to do the same."
I don't think they'd be just as dominant in other provinces. They'd be playing far better teams and some of their games would be a lot tighter.
The performances of other teams against them, such as Mayo, Kerry, Donegal, now Derry and Monaghan at times suggests they'd be given much tougher battles than they have faced in Leinster for the last decade.
Away from the Leinster championship, in qualifiers, Super 8s and league matches, Meath and Kildare have done very little over the same period. They struggle with teams they should be beating, given their resources. The counties I mentioned above have all outperformed them, some of them with only a fraction of the playing numbers.
Dublin are fantastic, but it's a complete cop-out to say this is why Meath have spent the vast majority of the past decade outside of division 1.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2080 - 15/04/2024 16:35:33    2538140

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Replying To arock:  "O'Rourke said Provincials are a shambles but many would argue its the counties in Leinster that are a shambles. How can counties like Meath and Kildare with decent populations struggle so much? I remember in the Geraghty era a full house between Dublin and Meath, not now. Dublin were wasteful, seriously sloppy but Meath were worse. Football needs a strong Meath and Kildare something just doesnt stack up."
The Munster SFC is ridiculous also. But doesnt get half the spotlight of Leinster.

Used to be Cork and Kerry, with the odd other county being a little bit competitive.
Once in a blue moon a non Kerry or Cork team wins.

Now unless Kerry take their eye off the ball again, like they did a few years ago, it will be another cake walk down there for them.

People ask which counties are under achieving compared to population, sponsorship, facilities etc - Cork has to be on the top of that list. The GAA seriously need to look at Cork GAA and find out what is going wrong down there.

Another county which baffles me is Kildare - so much underage success but not making the senior team any more competitive. There is no way a county like Kildare should be relegated to Div 3

Monaghan always box well above their weight and should be applauded for that.

Fionn (Dublin) - Posts: 3782 - 15/04/2024 16:35:39    2538141

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Clare, Limerick, Tipperary and Waterford wanted to restrict Cork and Kerry finals. Their own people aren't supporting them for beating each other. It would be wrong to name Cork and Kerry as seeds but if both are the top 2 from the league, league should be a fair seeding.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8000 - 15/04/2024 17:08:00    2538151

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Clare, Limerick, Tipperary and Waterford wanted to restrict Cork and Kerry finals. Their own people aren't supporting them for beating each other. It would be wrong to name Cork and Kerry as seeds but if both are the top 2 from the league, league should be a fair seeding."
Cork are miles of Kerry.
Let's be honest here - the Munster SFC is so uncompetitive.
And dont let the odd rare shock change that narrative.

Ulster and Connacht are the only 2 provinces which have a bit of competition.
And even Ulster has Derry going for 3 in a row.

Fionn (Dublin) - Posts: 3782 - 15/04/2024 17:22:31    2538157

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Replying To Fionn:  "The Munster SFC is ridiculous also. But doesnt get half the spotlight of Leinster.

Used to be Cork and Kerry, with the odd other county being a little bit competitive.
Once in a blue moon a non Kerry or Cork team wins.

Now unless Kerry take their eye off the ball again, like they did a few years ago, it will be another cake walk down there for them.

People ask which counties are under achieving compared to population, sponsorship, facilities etc - Cork has to be on the top of that list. The GAA seriously need to look at Cork GAA and find out what is going wrong down there.

Another county which baffles me is Kildare - so much underage success but not making the senior team any more competitive. There is no way a county like Kildare should be relegated to Div 3

Monaghan always box well above their weight and should be applauded for that."
Kerry dont take Cork for granted and know Cork are capable of putting it up to them although Cork are not all Ireland contenders.Kerry only beat Cork by 2points last year and Cork also beat Mayo in the championship.I agree MSFC is dead too but Cork have some fight every so often whereas no one in Leinster can come even close to Dublin.Now admittedly Dublin are a super team but Leinster is shocking.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3717 - 15/04/2024 20:11:09    2538185

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There have been two All Munster All-Ireland finals. Clare and Limerick have made All-Ireland quarter-finals. Tipperary have made two All-Ireland semi-finals in the last 10 years. In the first year of the Tailteann Cup, 4 out of 6 Munster counties were in the All-Ireland 16.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8000 - 15/04/2024 21:39:21    2538194

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Clare, Limerick, Tipperary and Waterford wanted to restrict Cork and Kerry finals. Their own people aren't supporting them for beating each other. It would be wrong to name Cork and Kerry as seeds but if both are the top 2 from the league, league should be a fair seeding."
If you remove the luck of the draw alot of the romance is gone though. If you go that far why not put the 4 other counties in a B competition and be done with it? Would Clare have won in 1992 if the seedings weren't done away with in 91? Tipp wouldn't have won it in 2020 either. Seeding teams is only for greedy people thinking of gate receipts.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12685 - 15/04/2024 21:55:14    2538197

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "I agree with a lot of that. Leinster is a very hard watch, but I'd lay a lot more of the responsibility for it at doors of Meath and Kildare.
How can counties like Mayo for years, Derry currently and even Monaghan be very competitive with Dublin at times, yet Meath and Kildare are doing well when they keep the margin of defeat below 15 points?
Neither of them have made a real dent in the championship since Kildare's semi-final in 2010. Kildare's win against Mayo in Newbridge probably being the only big result by either of them in that time.
In an era where teams have reached All-Ireland semi-finals through qualifiers and round robins, neither of them have even come close to doing so.
Their league results over the same period are similar.
I'm not trying to run either county down, but they are massively underperforming compared to counties like Mayo, Tyrone, Monaghan, Roscommon, Donegal etc. Never mind Dublin."
Asked a Kildare man once and he said they don't care enough…now I don't buy that for one minute. Every GAA person cares about their own county.

That said in Mayo for example people ask why we are always competitive despite 15 counties with higher populations, high immigration etc. Gaelic Football is religion and talked about 24/7. Local newspapers have wall to wall coverage even of junior league games. Every young lad and girl wants to play for Mayo. That's one lasting legacy of the team we had the past 10 years…while they didn't win Sam they have guaranteed the next generation coming through have the drive and interest.

Kerry obviously same with much much higher success than us. I see it in Roscommon too, small county but love their football. Kildare seem to get huge following when they are going well, so too Meath. The raw materials are all there for those counties to be at the very least competitive.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11278 - 15/04/2024 22:04:39    2538200

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Given its population concentration, could Dublin become a new separate province at some point?

The "Dublin Provincial Championship" with 5 or 6 regional teams could be exciting and make the AIC more equitable.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2701 - 15/04/2024 22:23:45    2538203

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "Kerry dont take Cork for granted and know Cork are capable of putting it up to them although Cork are not all Ireland contenders.Kerry only beat Cork by 2points last year and Cork also beat Mayo in the championship.I agree MSFC is dead too but Cork have some fight every so often whereas no one in Leinster can come even close to Dublin.Now admittedly Dublin are a super team but Leinster is shocking."
Cork are about the same level as Meath and Louth based on league form and head to heads over the last few years. Throw in Kildare there too, although their recent form hasn't been great.

But If Cork were taking part in the Leinster Championship, they'd get absolutely thumped by Dublin in Croke Park too. If you think otherwise, well that's on you my friend.

When you're continuously stuck in the firing line of maybe the greatest team ever and have been for the last 10/15 years, it's impossible not to take some kind of psychological damage.

hyperache (Meath) - Posts: 215 - 15/04/2024 23:57:16    2538218

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Replying To hyperache:  "Cork are about the same level as Meath and Louth based on league form and head to heads over the last few years. Throw in Kildare there too, although their recent form hasn't been great.

But If Cork were taking part in the Leinster Championship, they'd get absolutely thumped by Dublin in Croke Park too. If you think otherwise, well that's on you my friend.

When you're continuously stuck in the firing line of maybe the greatest team ever and have been for the last 10/15 years, it's impossible not to take some kind of psychological damage."
Exactly - if Kerry really wanted to beat Cork by 10 or 15 points - they would be able to do it.

Miles ahead of them.

To say Cork are close to them, is pie in the sky, and only spoof.

And the year Cork beat them - yes, Kerry did take their eye off the ball and focus too much on an upcoming game with Dublin. A blind man could see that.

Freak results happen all the time - but for anyone to say Munster is competitive is not being honest.

Fionn (Dublin) - Posts: 3782 - 16/04/2024 08:43:20    2538238

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Replying To yew_tree:  "Asked a Kildare man once and he said they don't care enough…now I don't buy that for one minute. Every GAA person cares about their own county.

That said in Mayo for example people ask why we are always competitive despite 15 counties with higher populations, high immigration etc. Gaelic Football is religion and talked about 24/7. Local newspapers have wall to wall coverage even of junior league games. Every young lad and girl wants to play for Mayo. That's one lasting legacy of the team we had the past 10 years…while they didn't win Sam they have guaranteed the next generation coming through have the drive and interest.

Kerry obviously same with much much higher success than us. I see it in Roscommon too, small county but love their football. Kildare seem to get huge following when they are going well, so too Meath. The raw materials are all there for those counties to be at the very least competitive."
Most neutral supporters have great respect for that great Mayo team of 2010 - 2020 approx. They were very unlucky to come up against the best team of all time in Dublin. They in my opinion are the best team never to win an All Ireland and deserve great credit for coming back year after year and never giving up. ( Not easy to do ) Lee Keegan is also in the top three of the greatest players to never win an All Ireland.

Having said all of that, I hope that the Rossies get the better of ye on Sunday. Should be a good crowd.

letsgetgoing (Roscommon) - Posts: 551 - 16/04/2024 08:59:27    2538243

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Replying To hyperache:  "Cork are about the same level as Meath and Louth based on league form and head to heads over the last few years. Throw in Kildare there too, although their recent form hasn't been great.

But If Cork were taking part in the Leinster Championship, they'd get absolutely thumped by Dublin in Croke Park too. If you think otherwise, well that's on you my friend.

When you're continuously stuck in the firing line of maybe the greatest team ever and have been for the last 10/15 years, it's impossible not to take some kind of psychological damage."
I agree Cork would get destroyed by Dublin too but my point is no one in Leinster is able to come close to Dublin.In Munster Cork can put it up to Kerry on any given day.Im not saying Munster is competitive at all.Its nearly as bad as Leinster but at least there s hope of a competitive game.Kerry only beat Cork by two points last year with both teams scoring same amount of scores 1-14 to 15points.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3717 - 16/04/2024 09:03:51    2538244

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