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Football Format Changes Discussion

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Looks like "Jarlath's baby" is the only show in town and will be voted in overwhelmingly at Congress."
Great news for Sligo and Clare if lopsided draws give them easy access to the All Ireland and possibly home advantage against lower ranked league counties.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8434 - 17/01/2025 11:56:51    2586183

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Looks like "Jarlath's baby" is the only show in town and will be voted in overwhelmingly at Congress."
Increasingly seems to be the process in the GAA.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4377 - 17/01/2025 12:34:46    2586186

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Increasingly seems to be the process in the GAA."
The double elimination part is fine. It would seem bizarre if the provincial councils are in agreement with a format without an incentive for winning the provincial titles.
Prenty was trying to push for provincial winners direct to quarter finals, with 4 groups of 3 to determine the remaining quarter finalists. The fly in the ointment for his plan was Connacht and Munster winners lying idle for 5 weeks. The likely criticism upon Connacht and Munster winners being dumped out after a 5 week wait was obvious!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8434 - 17/01/2025 13:15:49    2586191

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The double elimination part is fine. It would seem bizarre if the provincial councils are in agreement with a format without an incentive for winning the provincial titles.
Prenty was trying to push for provincial winners direct to quarter finals, with 4 groups of 3 to determine the remaining quarter finalists. The fly in the ointment for his plan was Connacht and Munster winners lying idle for 5 weeks. The likely criticism upon Connacht and Munster winners being dumped out after a 5 week wait was obvious!"
Haven't heard a single whisper of anyone proposing anything different to "Jarlath's baby" with the Congress not that far off.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2030 - 17/01/2025 14:16:39    2586203

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The double elimination part is fine. It would seem bizarre if the provincial councils are in agreement with a format without an incentive for winning the provincial titles.
Prenty was trying to push for provincial winners direct to quarter finals, with 4 groups of 3 to determine the remaining quarter finalists. The fly in the ointment for his plan was Connacht and Munster winners lying idle for 5 weeks. The likely criticism upon Connacht and Munster winners being dumped out after a 5 week wait was obvious!"
I wonder would something like Omahant's format work.

Say have an All Ireland series of 20 teams.

Ulster and Leinster semi-finalists, Munster and Connacht finalists plus 8 other wild cards (based on previous seasons Sam Maguire performance) to include a Tailteann winner.

Teams play 5 games each.

Top 8 to All Ireland quarter finals.

Provincial results from the semifinals in Ulster/Leinster and Munster/Connacht finals to count towards the 5 games played.

Munster and Connacht finalists wouldn't have to sit idle.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4377 - 17/01/2025 14:39:04    2586207

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I wonder would something like Omahant's format work.

Say have an All Ireland series of 20 teams.

Ulster and Leinster semi-finalists, Munster and Connacht finalists plus 8 other wild cards (based on previous seasons Sam Maguire performance) to include a Tailteann winner.

Teams play 5 games each.

Top 8 to All Ireland quarter finals.

Provincial results from the semifinals in Ulster/Leinster and Munster/Connacht finals to count towards the 5 games played.

Munster and Connacht finalists wouldn't have to sit idle."
Seems over the top. Connacht and Munster have two rounds to determine finalists. Leinster and Ulster have three rounds to determine finalists. As Leinster and Ulster have an extra hurdle to jump, Leinster and Ulster semi finalists possibly should qualify.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8434 - 17/01/2025 15:23:18    2586209

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Seems over the top. Connacht and Munster have two rounds to determine finalists. Leinster and Ulster have three rounds to determine finalists. As Leinster and Ulster have an extra hurdle to jump, Leinster and Ulster semi finalists possibly should qualify."
Yeah that's what I have but then those semi-finals then count.

So a losing semifinalist starts with a 1 game loss and has 4 more games to go.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4377 - 17/01/2025 15:45:59    2586211

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That championship could be played over 15 weeks.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4377 - 17/01/2025 15:49:16    2586213

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Leinster semi finalists will be mainly Tailteann teams.
Yet ye propose qualifying them before 1 of Galway, Ros, Mayo....????

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2030 - 17/01/2025 16:00:04    2586214

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Leinster semi finalists will be mainly Tailteann teams.
Yet ye propose qualifying them before 1 of Galway, Ros, Mayo....????"
There'd still be 7 other places open for the Connacht teams, 7 Leinster teams, 4 Munster and 5 Ulster for them to finish ahead of. It's not as bad as it you frame it.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4377 - 17/01/2025 16:36:26    2586219

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The double eliminator is Jarlath Burns' baby! I merely suggest how the double eliminator can be utilised for 11 automatic qualifiers for the next championship."
I like the idea of '11 automatic qualification'berths for the next 'AI Sam'. Also, the following year's league would likely have 'wild cards', as you call them, given the likely 'duplicate qualification' of Prov Champs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2994 - 17/01/2025 17:40:07    2586227

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Leinster semi finalists will be mainly Tailteann teams.
Yet ye propose qualifying them before 1 of Galway, Ros, Mayo....????"
You do raise a fair point. Clare, Kerry and Leitrim are one game away from a provincial final and All Ireland qualification. I merely suggest offering the same possibility to Leinster and Ulster, in the interest of balance and fairness.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8434 - 17/01/2025 17:42:59    2586228

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Replying To Whammo86:  "There'd still be 7 other places open for the Connacht teams, 7 Leinster teams, 4 Munster and 5 Ulster for them to finish ahead of. It's not as bad as it you frame it."
It'd be possible for every county from any Province to be able to qualify.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4377 - 17/01/2025 18:49:50    2586230

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Replying To legendzxix:  "You do raise a fair point. Clare, Kerry and Leitrim are one game away from a provincial final and All Ireland qualification. I merely suggest offering the same possibility to Leinster and Ulster, in the interest of balance and fairness."
Perhaps I don't your point but most of Ulster start in the QFs, also one step away from AIC, via a SF in this case.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2994 - 17/01/2025 19:08:21    2586237

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By popular request, I provide a 'Mock AILC Draw' below.
Well, ok - just one of you suggested it :)


AILC Draw - Simulation for a 12-Round Regular Season
(Year 1, Tier 1)

- Perform Draw 'after' all Prov Prelim & QF Rd ties are played

- Assume seeding Pots (1 to 4) based on 2024 league positions (after promotion/ relegation)

- Identify each 'Prov SF' and 'non-SF' team within each Pot

- Draw each 'Tier 1' Ulster SF team to a different Group (A to D); and repeat the process for all Ulster 'non-SF' teams

- Assign each team drawn to the 'next sequential group' that does 'not' contain a team that: a) it has already played in a Prov Prelim or QF Rd; or b) it will play in the SFs or potential Final; or c) is from the same pot

- Repeat the process for 'Tier 1' Connacht SF and non-SF teams, as well as for those in Leinster & Munster

- Separately, repeat these procedures for Tier 2 as well
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Prov Prelim & QF Rd ties below are based on the 2025 Prov Draw, with each tie's assumed 'winner and tier status' (shown in parentheses, for the purpose of illustration only).

Prelims (4)
Don v Der (Don, both Tier 1)
Wex v Lao (Lao, both Tier 2)
Car v Mea (Mea, Tier 1v2)
Wic v Long (Long, both Tier 2)

QFs (13)
Ant v Arm (Arm, Tier 1v2)
Tyr v Cav (Tyr, both Tier 1)
Fer v Dow (Dow, Tier 1v2)
Don v Mon (Don, both Tier 1)
Off v Mea (Mea, Tier 1v2)
Dub v Long (Dub, Tier 1v2)
Kild v West (Kild,Tier 1v2)
Lou v Lao (Lou, Tier 1v2)
NY v Gal (Gal, stand alone)
Lond v Ros (Ros, Tier 1v2)
May v Sli (May, Tier 1v2)
Wat v Tipp (Tipp, both Tier 2)
Lim v Cor (Cor, Tier 1v2)

Kerry (Tier 1), as well as Clare & Leitrim (both Tier 2), earn Prov QF byes.

Schedule all 8 Prov SFs for Week 12 (per the Calendar) and all 'potential' Prov Finals for Weeks 16 & 17.
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Based on 2024 league positions (after promotion/ relegation) and the Prov Prelim & QF results above, Pot breakdown is as follows:

SFs non- SFs
Pot 1: Dub, May, Ker Der
Pot 2: Tyr, Gal, Don Arm none
Pot 3: Ros, Cor Mon, Cav
Pot 4: Mea, Lou, Dow West
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Assume teams are drawn in the following sequence and assigned to the respective groups from the pots shown:

Teams drawn Group/Pot
Dow,Don,Arm,Tyr A4,B2,C2,D2
Cav,Der,Mon A3, 'C1', D3
('C1' as Don v Der in Prelim Rd)
Gal,May,Ros A2,B1,C3
Mea,Dub,Lou D4,A1,B4
West C4
Ker, Cor D1, 'B3' ('B3' as A is full)

So groups are:
A = Dub, Gal, Cav, Dow
B = May, Don, Cor, Lou
C = Der, Arm, Ros, West
D = Ker, Tyr, Mon, Mea

'URC schedule', less 'own-group' ties - i.e. play other 12
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SFs (8 = five 'Tier 1', *one 'Tier 2' and **two 'Tier 1v2')
Arm v Tyr
Dow v Don
Mea v Dub
**Kild v Lou
Gal v Ros
**May v Lei
Ker v Cor
*Cla v Tipp

Finals (4, expect all 'Tier 1')

Overall, of 29 Prov KO ties, 12 award match pts in Tier 1,
4 in Tier 2 and 13 are Prov KO stand alone.
______

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2994 - 18/01/2025 05:34:52    2586256

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Replying To omahant:  "Perhaps I don't your point but most of Ulster start in the QFs, also one step away from AIC, via a SF in this case."
Leinster and Ulster counties have to win a quarter final and semi final to qualify for the All Ireland series through the provincial championships. That's 2 hurdles.
Clare, Kerry and Leitrim have to win a semi final to qualify for the All Ireland series through the provincial championships. That's 1 hurdle.
I think Jarlath Burns' favoured double eliminator providing 11 automatic qualifiers is a long term solution worth considering. Counties were not in favour of the Third Tier when discussed last summer. Provincial winners only qualifying would suit alongside the introduction of a Third Tier in a 16:8:8 split. That way the Tailteann and Third Tier can run parallel to All Ireland Rounds 1, 2A & 2B, Pre QF, QF and SF. The Tailteann and Third Tier finals can be played before All Ireland semi final.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8434 - 18/01/2025 06:28:52    2586257

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@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8432 - 18/01/2025 06:28:52

Maybe the lines got crossed here, not sure - but tracing back, I thought these responses were relating to Whammo's point about an 'Uls 4, Lein 4, Conn 2 & Munster 2' - so the weight of a win in an Uls QF is similar to a Muns SF.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2994 - 18/01/2025 14:35:03    2586283

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Since the A.I.C went to a 16 team group format in 2023 the N.L has become the main qualifying path with the Provincial Championships qualifying just 3 teams in that time frame.
So the big question is since 2023 does having the Provincial link had any positive benefit/ effect on the actual A.I.C. ?

edu (Mayo) - Posts: 77 - 21/01/2025 15:50:26    2586818

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Replying To edu:  "Since the A.I.C went to a 16 team group format in 2023 the N.L has become the main qualifying path with the Provincial Championships qualifying just 3 teams in that time frame.
So the big question is since 2023 does having the Provincial link had any positive benefit/ effect on the actual A.I.C. ?"
Good question. Clare beat Cork fair and square in 2023. Hard to argue with their all Ireland qualification as a result. Meath could not really have complaints. If they do, where is their motion to Congress? Clare lost all 3 group games.
Sligo beat London and New York in 2023 to qualify for the All Ireland. Mayo, Galway and Roscommon had finished top 3 in Division 1 and were all on the other side of the draw. Division 3 winners Cavan lost out because of Sligo's easy route. Where is Cavan's motion to Congress? Sligo in fairness drew with Kildare. They lost the other games.
Clare beat Waterford in 2024 to qualify for the All Ireland. Division 3 runners up Down missed out as a result. Down has finished above Clare in Division 3. Where is Down's motion to Congress? Clare again lost all 3 games.
Cavan, Meath and Down have good reasons to bring motions to Congress. Fermanagh and/or Kildare might be in the same boat this year. If they are not bringing motions, they must be fine with the current setup?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8434 - 21/01/2025 20:28:13    2586865

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Replying To edu:  "Since the A.I.C went to a 16 team group format in 2023 the N.L has become the main qualifying path with the Provincial Championships qualifying just 3 teams in that time frame.
So the big question is since 2023 does having the Provincial link had any positive benefit/ effect on the actual A.I.C. ?"
In my AILC, league position is the only way to advance, so it's based on merit. Could awarding match pts for Prov ties (own tier) be the sweet spot for making both the league and Provs valuable?

In 2025, if Donegal wins Ulster (4 tough wins) and Clare beats the Tipp/Waterford winners and lose to Kerry or Cork (1 soft win) - both start the AIC group phase at ground zero (I would award Donegal for their hard work, well on their way to qualify from my AILC league phase).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2994 - 21/01/2025 22:18:44    2586883

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