|
Replying To omahant: "@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8418 - 15/01/2025 10:33:36
So my Shield and Plate (or Tailteann) could be worth winning? No promotion beyond Shield QFs.
Do you prefer Shield PQF byes and automatic following year Tier 1 status for 9-10-17-18 or 9-10-11-12, plus PQF winners?" Secondary competitions aren't valued without a reward e.g. The Tommy Murphy Cup.
Division 2, 3 and 4 finals are fine. A day out in Croke Park and both finalists have already earned promotion.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8434 - 15/01/2025 17:30:37
2586010
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Whammo86: "I don't think there should be a league at all. I think there should be a tight intense inter county championship and there be a better balance between club and county." Yeah, that balance should be the ultimate if the GAA wishes to maintain its amateur grassroots tradition.
A smaller inter-county footprint of about 10 games (incl group/league stage and Prov KO) is probably best if that balance is to be achieved.
I hope the GAA brass reflect on Noel McCaffrey's comments.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2997 - 15/01/2025 18:48:58
2586019
Link
0
|
|
Provincial finalists can someone times get caught out by a wounded opponent who have been waiting in the long grass. Some of the qualifiers are waiting a few weeks after provincial knockout for the All Ireland. The group stage or double eliminator offers both an opportunity to grow into the competition.
The rewards given to provincial runners up is a recurring sticky point. As mentioned before, why do Meath and/or Down not bring a motion to Congress?
It should be in provincial councils best interests that there is a meaningful reward for winning the provincial championships?
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8434 - 15/01/2025 19:12:01
2586020
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Whammo86: "It's not so bad no.
I just think 2 groups of 8 is a very natural way of running a competition moving to playoffs.
It retains a historical tradition of the league being made up of 8 team sections.
It is a football format that is pretty analogous to the successful hurling format, albeit without the Provincial element.
I think it can have a straightforward playoff phase and relegation element without sacrificing intensity of the group section.
A 27 week season devoted to inter county is out of balance with the club game." It is possible to have 2 groups of 6 in a 12:10:10 split.
All Ireland 12 in 2 groups of 6:
• 4 provincial winners - Seeds 1 and 2 on league placing.
• 7 qualifiers and Tailteann winner - Seeds 3, 4, 5 and 6 on league placing.
- 1st place direct to semi finals.
- 2nd and 3rd into quarter finals.
* 4 provincial winners, 1 Tailteann winner and 1 highest league ranked county possibly awarded 3 home games.
• Top 3 from each group automatically qualified for the following year.
• 4th v 5th in a 4 way playoff for the 7th automatic qualifier spot.
• 5 places vacant for 4 provincial winners and Tailteann winner.
- Where there is any duplication of qualification, league placing can be used for wildcards.
Requires league: 1, 2, 3, break, 4, 5, 6, break, 7 and straight into provincial championships without league finals.
Requires All Ireland Championship: Weekend off after Leinster & Ulster finals, 1, 2, 3, break, 4, 5, quarter finals, break, semi finals, break and final.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8434 - 15/01/2025 19:31:50
2586022
Link
0
|
|
omahant
Yes that makes sense -any potential Provincial Final pairing is taken into account and is scheduled to take place towards the end of the AILC when the initial 12 game draw is being made.
One thing that needs further explanation and that is when a Tier 2 teams qualifies for a Provincial Semi Final and taking the 2024 Connacht Championship as an example with Sligo being the Tier 2 team-you state that Mayo Galway Roscommon and Sligo are drawn to 4 different groups in Tier 1 - now that is the part that does not seem to make sense as Sligo would also be drawn in the Tier 2 12 game schedule.
With a 12 game schedule then the expectation would be that each team would have 6 home /6 away games. Now with the Provincial Semi Finals/Finals being part of the AILC that balance might be difficult to achieve with teams having home and away arrangements [and neutral venues].
edu (Mayo) - Posts: 77 - 15/01/2025 20:51:18
2586026
Link
0
|
|
@edu (Mayo) - Posts: 75 - 15/01/2025 20:51:18
To clarify, each Prov SF4 is drawn to separate groups, regardless of tier. In your Connacht example, Sligo is drawn to a Tier 2 group (as you expected), the other 3 (big 3) each to a different Tier 1 group.
Because of the presence of Sligo above, that's why I gave the Ulster SF4 example of an 'assumed all Tier 1' as well, with its 6 ties = 2 Ulster SFs + 1 Ulster Final + 3 'league only' ties (played in 'match pairs', over 3 rds/ weekends 12, 16 & 17).
I view my AILC as elaborate and innovative - but probably far too complex for the GAA.
Do you agree - or would it work?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2997 - 15/01/2025 22:47:58
2586032
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Whammo86: "A season with provincial championship, 7 rounds of an All Ireland group phase, followed by playoffs is still going to be 21 weeks long. It's still more than half of the annual prime GAA playing time available each year." Perhaps 20 weeks could be given to inter-county and 20 more to the clubs - each structuring exciting competitions within the allocated window.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2997 - 16/01/2025 01:40:43
2586040
Link
0
|
|
If a Third Tier comes in eventually, it could suit that the final 4 places in the All Ireland are through a playoff.
All Ireland qualification:
4 provincial winners.
4 provincial runners up. (Though I don't agree!)
3 league qualifiers
1 Tailteann winner
4 playoff winners
Playoff: 8 best league teams after top 3.
Example playoff from 2024:
Monaghan v Down
Cavan v Fermanagh
Cork v Kildare
Westmeath v Sligo
The playoffs can be the weekend after the Leinster and Ulster finals, a week before All Ireland Round 1.
Provincial winners could be drawn against playoff winners. Provincial runners up could be drawn against League top 3 and Tailteann winner. Home advantage for provincial finalists except for provincial runner up drawn against Tailteann winner.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8434 - 16/01/2025 08:17:18
2586042
Link
0
|
|
Replying To legendzxix: "It is possible to have 2 groups of 6 in a 12:10:10 split.
All Ireland 12 in 2 groups of 6:
• 4 provincial winners - Seeds 1 and 2 on league placing.
• 7 qualifiers and Tailteann winner - Seeds 3, 4, 5 and 6 on league placing.
- 1st place direct to semi finals.
- 2nd and 3rd into quarter finals.
* 4 provincial winners, 1 Tailteann winner and 1 highest league ranked county possibly awarded 3 home games.
• Top 3 from each group automatically qualified for the following year.
• 4th v 5th in a 4 way playoff for the 7th automatic qualifier spot.
• 5 places vacant for 4 provincial winners and Tailteann winner.
- Where there is any duplication of qualification, league placing can be used for wildcards.
Requires league: 1, 2, 3, break, 4, 5, 6, break, 7 and straight into provincial championships without league finals.
Requires All Ireland Championship: Weekend off after Leinster & Ulster finals, 1, 2, 3, break, 4, 5, quarter finals, break, semi finals, break and final." It's just a tough schedule really and a large overall footprint.
It's why I just think there isn't room for a National league as a secondary competition and getting exclusive access to club players in that time.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4377 - 16/01/2025 09:44:29
2586045
Link
0
|
|
Replying To omahant: "Perhaps 20 weeks could be given to inter-county and 20 more to the clubs - each structuring exciting competitions within the allocated window." Yeah.
I've ideas on how it could work.
February to March Provincial/All Ireland club. Inter- county secondary competitions without club players.
April/May Provincial Championship with an onus for county boards to schedule 2 club games around inter county in that window.
June/July/August Inter county championship group stage with 3 club weekends per code scheduled.
September All Ireland playoffs. Any county able to proceed with club championship can press on.
Should be a directive that All Counties provide a minimum of 7 fixtures per code to all teams.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4377 - 16/01/2025 09:50:16
2586047
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Whammo86: "It's just a tough schedule really and a large overall footprint.
It's why I just think there isn't room for a National league as a secondary competition and getting exclusive access to club players in that time." Agreed that it is a tough schedule. The league would have to complete over 6 rounds and within 7 weekends for a more reasonable schedule.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8434 - 16/01/2025 10:17:27
2586048
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Whammo86: "Yeah.
I've ideas on how it could work.
February to March Provincial/All Ireland club. Inter- county secondary competitions without club players.
April/May Provincial Championship with an onus for county boards to schedule 2 club games around inter county in that window.
June/July/August Inter county championship group stage with 3 club weekends per code scheduled.
September All Ireland playoffs. Any county able to proceed with club championship can press on.
Should be a directive that All Counties provide a minimum of 7 fixtures per code to all teams." All Ireland finals moving from late July to late August and the majority of County finals moving from late October to late November might be an agreeable compromise.
I'd agree with decoupling the league from championship for All Ireland club finals in March. It could entail All Ireland 8 quarter finalists qualifying automatically for the following year. Pre QF losers would have to playoff for 3 more qualifying spots.
Round 2B losers then would have to playoff for seeding 13 to 16. The Pre QF missing out on qualification and Round 2B losers can be seeded 12 to 16. Where there is duplication of provincial winners and the Tailteann winner qualifying, 12 to 16 can claim a wildcard spot in that order.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8434 - 16/01/2025 10:32:08
2586050
Link
0
|
|
Replying To omahant: "@edu (Mayo) - Posts: 75 - 15/01/2025 20:51:18
To clarify, each Prov SF4 is drawn to separate groups, regardless of tier. In your Connacht example, Sligo is drawn to a Tier 2 group (as you expected), the other 3 (big 3) each to a different Tier 1 group.
Because of the presence of Sligo above, that's why I gave the Ulster SF4 example of an 'assumed all Tier 1' as well, with its 6 ties = 2 Ulster SFs + 1 Ulster Final + 3 'league only' ties (played in 'match pairs', over 3 rds/ weekends 12, 16 & 17).
I view my AILC as elaborate and innovative - but probably far too complex for the GAA.
Do you agree - or would it work?" Yes elaborate and innovative it most certainly it is and may come across as complex [initially anyway] and would probably go over the head of most people. It may be an idea to do a simulation draw [at least for Tier 1] and post the seedings /groups and 12 game fixture schedule [or at least the rounds that include the Provincial S.Fs and Finals] and post it on here. It would give people a better idea of how it all works.
You mentioned about adding the pre Provincial S.F results to the tables after the draws are made . Now that may be a bit messy.
Would it work? It is definitely better than what is currently in place. Every victory/draw counts in the 12 game schedule as to how well a team does in The Championship. Now having the Provincial S.Fs and Finals [apart from any Tier 1 v Tier 2 match] built into the 12 game AILC schedule is a totally alien concept in Gaelic sports but it is novel.
Just a different slant on the post regular season [below the top 8 that compete for the AIC.]
An additional competition is added[ The Bottom 4 play offs in Tier 1] [3 up /3 down between Tiers]
SEMI FINALS
13 V 16
14 V 15
FINAL
Winner 2 S.F
Losing Semi Finalists and loser Final are the 3 teams relegated to Tier 2 [AILC Division 2] for following season.
Winner Final retain Tier 1 [AILC Division 1] status for following season.
A.I. SHIELD [6 teams]
9 10 11 12 17[Tier 2 winner] 18 [tier 2 Runner up]
9 + 17 -----Direct to S.F---- Other 4 to Q.F.
Winner guaranteed not to be relegated the following season.
i.e If finishing in the bottom 4 they will avoid the bottom 4 play offs.
In essence winning the Shield gives a team a guarantee of competing in Tier 1 for the next 2 years.
A.I PLATE [10 teams] All are Tier 2 teams playing for one promotion spot]
19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28
4 lowest ranked play Preliminary Round and winners join other 6 in Q.Fs
Above 4 competitions highest ranked team is drawn to play at home to lowest ranked team with all finals in Croke Park
edu (Mayo) - Posts: 77 - 16/01/2025 16:46:23
2586107
Link
0
|
|
@edu (Mayo) - Posts: 76 - 16/01/2025 16:46:23
Adding a few more layers of complexity, I see :)
That's a good suggestion about me simulating a full Tier 1 draw to post in this thread later.
A few more points on my design decisions:
- In the current/ existing Tailteann Cup, some have argued that a 'bottom 16' is too many, as about 4 of them are too strong for the rest - and I agree.
This guided my decision to have have the AI Plate highest cutoff at 21st, and separately, that a lowest cutoff at 28th is preferable to 32nd, as teams would need to strive to qualify (latter is better, I think).
Given my 21-28, none are high enough for a promotion berth, especially as 19 & 20 have no such guarantee in my Shield.
Your 19-28 is interesting in that it awards the Plate Champ a 3rd promotion berth, but I wonder if 19 & 20 are too strong for the Plate competition?
- Your relegation playoff formula (13-16) is also interesting, as the two losers go down.
I have this as part of my Shield PQF ties: 11,12,13,14 host 20,19,16,15 (was my unstated "respectively" implied?)
My plan has the two losers going down as well (replaced by byes 17/18, while byes 9/10 stay up).
11v20 and 12v19 would provide up to two more promotion berths, if the lower seeds win away.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2997 - 16/01/2025 18:22:48
2586123
Link
0
|
|
@edu (Mayo) - Posts: 76 - 16/01/2025 16:46:23
Other point - I don't think playing Prov Prelim/QF ties before the AILC draw and then 'possibly' adding those results to each 16-team table (own tier only) is messy.
They know when playing the match that it will count if both are Tier 1, or both are Tier 2 (but not count/Prov stand alone, if Tier 1v2).
When making the AILC draw, Prelim/QF losing teams (and winners) must be drawn to groups 'not' containing teams they've played (as all 12 match opponents are 'crossover').
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2997 - 16/01/2025 18:36:55
2586125
Link
0
|
|
Jarlath Burns' favoured double eliminator is actually very suitable for 11 automatic qualifiers, allowing 5 spots for the Tailteann winner and the 4 provincial winners.
• 8 All Ireland quarter finalists: automatically qualified. Big incentive to get to Round 2A and onto the quarter finalists with minimal fuss.
• The 4 Round 2B losers should enter Playoff semi finals. The 2 winners and the 4 Pre QF losers can enter Playoff finals for 3 more qualification spots.
• The Tailteann winner will take the 12th qualifying spot.
• 4 spots are left vacant for the following year's provincial championships.
- Where duplication of qualification occurs, the league can provide wildcards.
- League seeding could apply in Round 1 for Provincial winners v Seed 4 and Seed 2 v Seed 3.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8434 - 16/01/2025 18:48:58
2586127
Link
0
|
|
To edu
You posted:
"Now having the Provincial S.Fs and Finals [apart from any Tier 1 v Tier 2 match] built into the 12 game AILC schedule is a totally alien concept in Gaelic sports but it is novel."
Yes, and after the AILC draw, Prelims/QFs (already played) are backfilled as well.
It would be "alien/novel" but as I wrote before, other sports "double up" ties - e.g.
Calcutta Cup within Triple Crown, within rugby's Six Nations;
Shield 'regional quartets' within URC league schedule; and tournament-style NBA Cup, a subset of the NBA regular season.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2997 - 16/01/2025 19:12:13
2586132
Link
0
|
|
Replying To legendzxix: "Jarlath Burns' favoured double eliminator is actually very suitable for 11 automatic qualifiers, allowing 5 spots for the Tailteann winner and the 4 provincial winners.
• 8 All Ireland quarter finalists: automatically qualified. Big incentive to get to Round 2A and onto the quarter finalists with minimal fuss.
• The 4 Round 2B losers should enter Playoff semi finals. The 2 winners and the 4 Pre QF losers can enter Playoff finals for 3 more qualification spots.
• The Tailteann winner will take the 12th qualifying spot.
• 4 spots are left vacant for the following year's provincial championships.
- Where duplication of qualification occurs, the league can provide wildcards.
- League seeding could apply in Round 1 for Provincial winners v Seed 4 and Seed 2 v Seed 3." How much of this is Jarlath's, how much is your opinion?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2997 - 17/01/2025 00:17:48
2586152
Link
0
|
|
Replying To omahant: "How much of this is Jarlath's, how much is your opinion?" The double eliminator is Jarlath Burns' baby! I merely suggest how the double eliminator can be utilised for 11 automatic qualifiers for the next championship.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8434 - 17/01/2025 09:35:15
2586170
Link
0
|
|
Replying To legendzxix: "The double eliminator is Jarlath Burns' baby! I merely suggest how the double eliminator can be utilised for 11 automatic qualifiers for the next championship." Looks like "Jarlath's baby" is the only show in town and will be voted in overwhelmingly at Congress.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2031 - 17/01/2025 10:58:54
2586178
Link
0
|