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Football Format Changes Discussion

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The big flaw of the 2023 and 2024 format are the following: 1. 3 teams advancing from the groups. Absolutely ridiculous. Minimal jeopardy. The GAA were selling a pup! The public voted with their feet. 2. Sligo beating London and New York to qualify for the All Ireland series. Meath missing out. 3. Clare beating Waterford to qualify for the All Ireland series. Down missing out. 1 is solved by the Jarlath Burn's favoured double eliminator. 2 and 3 are solved by league seeding for balanced provincial draws or else provincial winners only qualifying through the provinces. If all provincial finalists are going to be seeded and given home advantage in the Jarlath Burn's favoured double eliminator, where will any reward be for winning the province? legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8414 - 10/01/2025 21:59:24 2585417 Link
Just out of interest --- How many games did inter county teams play last season [2024] [Excluding the pre season Provincial competitions] ? Did some research working from the 1st week of the N.L up to the A.I.C Final[ a 27 week time frame]. 2 teams played 17 games [Armagh and Galway] 2 teams played 16 games. 3 teams played 15 games. 6 teams played 14 games. 6 teams played 13 games. 11 teams played 12 games. 2 teams played 11 games.[ Longford and Carlow]. This is the minimum amount of games a team could play. Overall it is a rather comfortable game schedule with even the two A.I Finalists having 10 break weekends. In the Provincial Championships only the break down was as follows--- 0 teams played 4 games [that is the maximum number of games a team could play-Ulster and Leinster only]. 6 teams played 3 games. 13 teams played 2 games. 14 teams played 1 game. [This includes New York]. edu (Mayo) - Posts: 73 - 10/01/2025 22:01:11 2585418 Link
Replying To edu: "Just out of interest --- How many games did inter county teams play last season [2024 [Excluding the pre season Provincial competitions] ? Did some research working from the 1st week of the N.L up to the A.I.C Final[ a 27 week time frame]. 2 teams played 17 games [Armagh and Galway] 2 teams played 16 games. 3 teams played 15 games. 6 teams played 14 games. 6 teams played 13 games. 11 teams played 12 games. 2 teams played 11 games.[ Longford and Carlow]. This is the minimum amount of games a team could play. Overall it is a rather comfortable game schedule with even the two A.I Finalists having 10 break weekends. In the Provincial Championships only the break down was as follows--- 0 teams played 4 games [that is the maximum number of games a team could play-Ulster and Leinster only]. 6 teams played 3 games. 13 teams played 2 games. 14 teams played 1 game. [This includes New York]."]Took 6 weekends to play the Provincials with most teams sitting round waiting for the AI series. I suggest they should be mixed in with the League something like soccer cup competitions. Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2017 - 10/01/2025 23:29:59 2585427 Link
@edu (Mayo) - Posts: 71 - 10/01/2025 22:01:11 In my AILC, prior to a short concluding AIC Series, I have a 12-game schedule - combining actual current league (7-8), province (1-4) and AIC group stage (3), for an actual variable total of 11-15 games. To get to an AIC Series Final, I have teams playing 3-4 more games, like the actual AIC. In total, my AILC has 15-16 games (plus any inter-tier Prov ties) versus actual 14-19 - my AILC, a net game count reduction for the busiest teams. My 27-week calendar also provides sufficient rest: CALENDAR Week Activity -2 (mid Jan) Start of '2-3 game' Pre-Season 0 (end of Jan) End of Pre-Season Warm-Up 1 (start of Feb) Prov SFC Prelim Rd 2 Prov SFC QFs 2 (after QFs) AILC Draw (2 tiers of 4x4 or 6,5,5) 2 (after Draw) Prelim/QF results to league tables? 3 Bye Week 4 (end of Feb) First Full Regular Season Rd 12 (end of Apr) Rd includes all 8 Prov SFs 16 & 17 (end of May) Rds include 4 Prov Finals 20 Last Regular Season Rd 21 (end of June) Bye Week 22 AIC PSFs/PQFs, AI Shield PQFs & AI Plate QFs 23 AIC QFs & AI Shield QFs 24 AI Plate SFs 25 (end of July) AIC SFs & AI Shield SFs 26 AI Plate Final 27 (2nd week of Aug) AIC Final & AI Shield Final Note - With each team scheduled to play 12 (or 10) 'staggered' regular season games in Weeks 1-20 and '0 to 4' post-season games in Weeks 22-27, the remaining 'inactive weeks' are deemed sufficient for rest time. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2972 - 11/01/2025 04:45:41 2585433 Link
Replying To omahant: "@edu (Mayo) - Posts: 71 - 10/01/2025 22:01:11 In my AILC, prior to a short concluding AIC Series, I have a 12-game schedule - combining actual current league (7-8), province (1-4) and AIC group stage (3), for an actual variable total of 11-15 games. To get to an AIC Series Final, I have teams playing 3-4 more games, like the actual AIC. In total, my AILC has 15-16 games (plus any inter-tier Prov ties) versus actual 14-19 - my AILC, a net game count reduction for the busiest teams. My 27-week calendar also provides sufficient rest: CALENDAR Week Activity -2 (mid Jan) Start of '2-3 game' Pre-Season 0 (end of Jan) End of Pre-Season Warm-Up 1 (start of Feb) Prov SFC Prelim Rd 2 Prov SFC QFs 2 (after QFs) AILC Draw (2 tiers of 4x4 or 6,5,5) 2 (after Draw) Prelim/QF results to league tables? 3 Bye Week 4 (end of Feb) First Full Regular Season Rd 12 (end of Apr) Rd includes all 8 Prov SFs 16 & 17 (end of May) Rds include 4 Prov Finals 20 Last Regular Season Rd 21 (end of June) Bye Week 22 AIC PSFs/PQFs, AI Shield PQFs & AI Plate QFs 23 AIC QFs & AI Shield QFs 24 AI Plate SFs 25 (end of July) AIC SFs & AI Shield SFs 26 AI Plate Final 27 (2nd week of Aug) AIC Final & AI Shield Final Note - With each team scheduled to play 12 (or 10) 'staggered' regular season games in Weeks 1-20 and '0 to 4' post-season games in Weeks 22-27, the remaining 'inactive weeks' are deemed sufficient for rest time." Just to confirm the teams that play in Tier 1 are the 16 teams that reach the 4 Provincial Semi Finals and Tier 2 consists of the remaining teams that are knocked out in the Provincial Preliminary and Quarter Final rounds? edu (Mayo) - Posts: 73 - 11/01/2025 21:59:20 2585564 Link
For those suggesting league and provincial championships running in parallel, you are probably looking at the following: NFL1 NFL2 Leinster & Ulster Preliminary Round. (Rest weekend) NFL3 NFL4 Quarter Finals in all provinces. (Rest weekend) NFL5 NFL6 Semi Finals in all provinces. (Rest weekend) NFL7 NFL Finals 4 Provincial Finals on one weekend. (Rest weekend) All Ireland Round 1 (Rest weekend) All Ireland Round 2A & Round 2B (Rest weekend) All Ireland Preliminary Quarter Finals (Rest weekend) All Ireland Quarter Finals (Rest weekend) All Ireland Semi Finals (Rest weekend) All Ireland Final There is only a 4 week manageable gap from NFL7 to All Ireland Round 1. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8414 - 11/01/2025 22:25:43 2585568 Link
Replying To edu: "Just to confirm the teams that play in Tier 1 are the 16 teams that reach the 4 Provincial Semi Finals and Tier 2 consists of the remaining teams that are knocked out in the Provincial Preliminary and Quarter Final rounds?" No, and you wouldn't know from my latest post. Tier 1 could start with the league's top 16 in year 1. Promotion and relegation is via the AIC Shield KO (2nd of 3-tier AIC). I re-post my idea in full below: All-Ireland League-Championship (AILC) - 'Two-tier' league structure, encompassing Prov KO ties, within a 'Swiss System' match schedule, leading to a short concluding 'three-tier' AIC Series. Two Options: OPTION ONE - Two league tiers of 16 - Prov KO ties double as league ties (all 4 rds, own tier only); any additional tier crossover ties (Tier 1v2) are Prov KO stand alone - Play Prov Prelim & QF Rds early (1st half Feb); SFs (end Apr); and Finals (2nd half May) - After Prov QFs, draw '4 groups of 4' in each tier (from 4 seeding pots of 4) - 12-match Regular Season (URC schedule, less 'own-group' ties - i.e. play other 12), with all 'own-tier' Prov ties included in the 12 - Teams ranked 1-16 & 17-32, based on 12-match/ 16-team tables, advance to 'three-tier' AICs for Sam, Shield & Plate - Teams placed 1 & 17 win "League 1" & "League 2" - Top 8 to AI Sam AFL-style playoffs; 9-20 to AI Shield KO; 21-28 to AI Plate KO (or Tailteann Cup); and 29-32 do not advance - Prov Champs advance based on League placing (no Sam berth guarantee) - 'Shield QF 8' earn/retain Tier 1 status the next year (PQF byes to 9,10,17,18). Or, alternatively: OPTION TWO 10-match Regular Season, same as "Option One", with the following changes: - After Prov QFs, draw groups of 6, 5 & 5 in each tier - 10-match schedule (6 v both 5s, each 5 plays own round-robin group), with all 'own-tier' Prov ties included in the 10. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2972 - 12/01/2025 00:15:39 2585575 Link
Replying To legendzxix: "For those suggesting league and provincial championships running in parallel, you are probably looking at the following: NFL1 NFL2 Leinster & Ulster Preliminary Round. (Rest weekend) NFL3 NFL4 Quarter Finals in all provinces. (Rest weekend) NFL5 NFL6 Semi Finals in all provinces. (Rest weekend) NFL7 NFL Finals 4 Provincial Finals on one weekend. (Rest weekend) All Ireland Round 1 (Rest weekend) All Ireland Round 2A & Round 2B (Rest weekend) All Ireland Preliminary Quarter Finals (Rest weekend) All Ireland Quarter Finals (Rest weekend) All Ireland Semi Finals (Rest weekend) All Ireland Final There is only a 4 week manageable gap from NFL7 to All Ireland Round 1." @legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8406 - 11/01/2025 22:25:43 That's logical, tidy and ultimately what the GAA currently wants - 27 weeks with NFL 8, Provs 4, AIC 6 and Rest 9. Get your club to motion it. When is your AIC Final? It's not like mine - a steep mountain in front of myself :) omahant (USA) - Posts: 2972 - 12/01/2025 01:03:33 2585578 Link
Round 1 of the Jarlath Burn's favoured double eliminator should be split in two; Round 1A: Provincial winners v Seed 4s. Round 1B: Provincial runners up v Seed 3s. The reward for winning your province then is avoiding the likes of Derry, Tyrone, Roscommon and Monaghan. Round 2A: 1A winners v 1B winners. Round 2B: Arguably an open draw of 1A and 1B losers. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8414 - 12/01/2025 12:04:58 2585613 Link
Replying To legendzxix: "Round 1 of the Jarlath Burn's favoured double eliminator should be split in two; Round 1A: Provincial winners v Seed 4s. Round 1B: Provincial runners up v Seed 3s. The reward for winning your province then is avoiding the likes of Derry, Tyrone, Roscommon and Monaghan. Round 2A: 1A winners v 1B winners. Round 2B: Arguably an open draw of 1A and 1B losers." It is just unnecessary for it to be double elimination to be honest. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4359 - 12/01/2025 13:58:12 2585626 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "It is just unnecessary for it to be double elimination to be honest." I think "double elimination" strikes a nice balance between the harshness of 'lose once and go home' and a 'group phase that lacks jeopardy'. Also, the double elimination is limited - reducing 16 teams to a KO 12 - and can provide a few more cracking encounters. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2972 - 12/01/2025 14:47:01 2585631 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "It is just unnecessary for it to be double elimination to be honest." Depends on the starting point. Derry losing 3 games in a row between Ulster knockout and their first two group games in 2014 suggested a structure without meaningful jeopardy. If Derry lose an Ulster quarter final, Round 1 and Round 2B - it'll be a case of three strikes and Derry are out. Goodnight Irene!!! legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8414 - 12/01/2025 16:40:37 2585643 Link
Replying To legendzxix: "Depends on the starting point. Derry losing 3 games in a row between Ulster knockout and their first two group games in 2014 suggested a structure without meaningful jeopardy. If Derry lose an Ulster quarter final, Round 1 and Round 2B - it'll be a case of three strikes and Derry are out. Goodnight Irene!!!" 2024 - you are not as young as you think :) omahant (USA) - Posts: 2972 - 12/01/2025 17:12:59 2585647 Link
Replying To omahant: "I think "double elimination" strikes a nice balance between the harshness of 'lose once and go home' and a 'group phase that lacks jeopardy'. Also, the double elimination is limited - reducing 16 teams to a KO 12 - and can provide a few more cracking encounters." I just think it already coming off the back of National league and Provincial campaigns somewhat neuters those competitions. Its just starting from the start again maybe a bit unnecessarily. I think you'd want to make those the core competitions and have a higher level of intensity the whole way through. Like if you had 4 divisions of 8 and the All Ireland playoffs being top 6 from division 1, top 2 from division 2 plus non-qualified provincial champions that could be an exciting championship. Provincial winners don't automatically get a place in the last 8. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4359 - 13/01/2025 10:45:04 2585696 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "I just think it already coming off the back of National league and Provincial campaigns somewhat neuters those competitions. Its just starting from the start again maybe a bit unnecessarily. I think you'd want to make those the core competitions and have a higher level of intensity the whole way through. Like if you had 4 divisions of 8 and the All Ireland playoffs being top 6 from division 1, top 2 from division 2 plus non-qualified provincial champions that could be an exciting championship. Provincial winners don't automatically get a place in the last 8." I think my AILC addresses much of that - a guaranteed 12-match schedule (or 10) before a quick fire AIC elimination. Probably not enough bite to that 6 of 8 in Div 1. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2972 - 13/01/2025 13:46:48 2585724 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "I just think it already coming off the back of National league and Provincial campaigns somewhat neuters those competitions. Its just starting from the start again maybe a bit unnecessarily. I think you'd want to make those the core competitions and have a higher level of intensity the whole way through. Like if you had 4 divisions of 8 and the All Ireland playoffs being top 6 from division 1, top 2 from division 2 plus non-qualified provincial champions that could be an exciting championship. Provincial winners don't automatically get a place in the last 8." Galway won Connacht in 2016 and lost to Tipperary in the quarter finals. I think provincial champions do need their next game to have a reality check. Kerry had that versus Mayo in 2023. If group stages are off the table - the double eliminator or the Champions Round mooted by Dublin and Tyrone seem the only options. If no distinction is made between winning and losing a provincial final in All Ireland Round 1, it would seem crazy that Donegal winning Ulster from the preliminary round would have no seeding advantage over Clare losing a Munster final after only beating Tipperary or Waterford. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8414 - 13/01/2025 16:48:42 2585748 Link
Replying To omahant: "I think my AILC addresses much of that - a guaranteed 12-match schedule (or 10) before a quick fire AIC elimination. Probably not enough bite to that 6 of 8 in Div 1." I don't disagree with not enough bite to that 6 from 8 division 1 teams. 2 equal groups of 8 with 4 from each going forward would be better. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4359 - 13/01/2025 17:08:18 2585750 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "I don't disagree with not enough bite to that 6 from 8 division 1 teams. 2 equal groups of 8 with 4 from each going forward would be better." I agree. With those two equally ranked-groups, each team would play 7 games - say, 2 against each half of current Divs 1&2 (except their own half div, or "pot", played once). My AILC targets 12 games - say, 3 against each half div (incl their own) - just a longer schedule - but maybe not, as it's offset by doubled up Prov ties and elimination of separate group phase. Separately, the '6 of 8' would have a 'team 7' issue, like the flawed 'Proposal B/team 6' of a few years ago. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2972 - 13/01/2025 18:46:57 2585755 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "I don't disagree with not enough bite to that 6 from 8 division 1 teams. 2 equal groups of 8 with 4 from each going forward would be better." So difficult to move away from the current league structure. A tried and tested format from over many years. Hurling as you know is finally returning to a top division and a lower division below it. Provincial winners avoiding Seed 3s should bring some bite. Win to avoid Derry or Tyrone from 2024 for example. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8414 - 13/01/2025 19:07:47 2585758 Link
@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8411 - 13/01/2025 19:07:47 Generally, ok - BUT: Lose an Ulster Final, draw 3rd seed Derry or Tyrone. Be that Derry or Tyrone, draw Prov Final loser, Clare, or in other years, Sligo. Better to lose that Ulster QF. As we've agreed before, best to have 2nd seeds based on league. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2972 - 13/01/2025 19:29:18 2585764 Link