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Football Format Changes Discussion

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@edu (Mayo) - Posts: 68 - 03/01/2025 21:14:40

I go with a 'halfway house' - entry to an AIC tier (Sam, Shield or Plate) is solely based on League placing, with the match pts acquired partly influenced by Prov SFC performance.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2953 - 04/01/2025 01:01:47    2584501

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Replying To legendzxix:  "A currently strong province like Ulster is being rewarded with 4 out of 7 league qualifiers. 7 Ulster counties are likely to compete in the 2025 All Ireland series, with Down guaranteed through winning the Tailteann.
Provincial winners only qualifying is the only way to cut the nonsense of Clare beating Tipperary or Waterford and Sligo beating London or New York for a ridiculously easy route to the All-Ireland. Sligo 2023 and Clare 2024 would have been better off in the Tailteann.
If Kildare and Fermanagh make the Division 3 final this year, the loser will probably miss out on the All Ireland when Clare beat Waterford or Tipperary.
Is there any chance of Meath and/or Down and/or Kildare and/or Fermanagh bringing the required motion to Congress to stop this nonsense?"
But the Provincial Winners are qualifying through the League route .Since the 16 team A.I.C was introduced in 2023 all the 8 Provincial winners were qualified through their League position and is highly likely that will continue into the future. A team would have to finish outside the top 13 or 14 in the League [All Division 1 and the top 5/6 in Division 2] in order to qualify through the Provincial route only .Can not see many Provincial Champions outside the the top 13/14 in the League in 2025 or any other year for that matter. There might be one every ten years or so.

edu (Mayo) - Posts: 69 - 04/01/2025 01:08:38    2584502

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@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8389 - 03/01/2025 22:15:33

UEFA is up to this nonsense as well - two associations get a 'bonus berth' into the UCL for 'NEXT' year based on 'THIS' year's aggregate performance by all clubs from that association. For example, the 5th team in the EPL will 'EARN' a berth, if their EPL rivals go well. Losses by those rivals quickly sends 'TEAM 5' to the Europa League (akin to GAA logic).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2953 - 04/01/2025 01:13:05    2584503

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@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8389 - 03/01/2025 22:15:33

Donegal would need to take the scenic route to an Ulster title in 2025. Dublin and Kerry still coast to their Prov titles.
Donegal deserves more in this scenario - your equal treatment of all Prov Champs preserves the broken status quo.
In my AILC, Donegal, Dublin and Kerry would likely swap some of their Prov opponents around in 'league only' ties -and by awarding match pts, like 'own tier' Prov ties, it makes the overall competition fair and balanced.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2953 - 04/01/2025 01:30:10    2584504

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Replying To edu:  "Since the inception of the A.I.C 140 odd years ago the 4 Provincial Championships have been linked to it. That link had remained constant for most of that time [up till 2000
where a team had to win their Provincial Championship in order to progress in the A.I.C.
That changed with the advent of the Qualifiers in 2001 when for the first time a team could lose in their P.C and still progress in the A.I.C or even win it. Winning a P.C did however confer a significant reward--direct entry into Q.F and avoidance of other P.C. Winners in that round. Even getting to a P.C Final guaranteed a last 12 place.
Similarly with the super 8s the 4 P.C. Winners qualified directly.
However since the introduction of the current 16 team A.I.C in 2023 the P.C link to the A.I.C has now been reduced to qualifiers for Division 4 teams[D4 is the only Division where a team can not qualify out of for A.I.C.] and Division 3 teams that do not finish in top 2 in that Division. Even winning or finishing 2nd in Division 3 is not a guarantee of a place in the A.I.C. as happened in 2023 when no Division 3 team qualified for the A.I.C. The ironic thing is that those teams that have qualified for the A.I.C through this route have been out of their dept and it may actually been better to have being competing in the Tailteann Cup.
Also a Division 1 team need not even need to play in their P.C in order to participate in the A.I.C
Over the last year or so I have posted a number of proposals on this forum for various formats for a revamped A.I.C[and/or overall Football Season] incorporating the 4 P.C.s as have numerous other forum users [two posters in particular]. All this has led me to reach the following conclusion- and that is in order to be able to organize a proper tiered Championship the 4 regional Championships need to be decoupled from the National Championship. These 4 regional championships vary greatly in numbers and in overall strength in dept.
Of course it looks like the P.C link is set to continue for the next while [years or even decade[s]] The P.C.s have a very important place in the Football calendar and even severing the link with the A.I.C will not change that."]It's obvious to everyone that starting the all Ireland with the provincial championships is starting a journey by going 100 miles in the wrong direction.

In typical GAA style once the provincial are decoupled from the all Ireland, the masses will wonder why we didn't do it years ago (like lifting the ban on foreign sports, opening croke park etc).

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1205 - 04/01/2025 05:54:22    2584507

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"But the Provincial Winners are qualifying through the League route .Since the 16 team A.I.C was introduced in 2023 all the 8 Provincial winners were qualified through their League position and is highly likely that will continue into the future. A team would have to finish outside the top 13 or 14 in the League (All Division 1 and the top 5/6 in Division 2) in order to qualify through the Provincial route only .Can not see many Provincial Champions outside the the top 13/14 in the League in 2025 or any other year for that matter. There might be one every ten years or so.
EDU (MAYO) - POSTS: 69 - 04/01/2025 01:08:38"

IMHO winning a provincial title should be the only way for a lower ranked league county do displace a higher ranked league county. Provincial winners only should qualify through the provinces. The Tailteann winner and 11 league qualifiers should make up the remainder.
In the Jarlath Burns' preferred double eliminator: Provincial winners should be rewarded with a home draw against a Seed 4. Tailteann winners arguably should be guaranteed a home draw in Round 1 as well. By default this could mean Tailteann winners are placed with Seed 3s at least. Outside of predetermined home advantage, all other rounds before the quarter finals should see all counties agree a home and an away arrangement.
ROUND 1
Provincial winners at home versus Seed 4s.
Seed 2s v Seed 3s. Separate draw for home advantage. (Debatable that the Tailteann winner could be guaranteed at least a Seed 3 and home advantage.)
ROUND 2
8 Round 1 winners. Separate draw for home advantage. Provincial winners kept apart.
REPECHAGE ROUND (Round 2B)
8 Round 1 losers. Separate draw for home advantage.
PRELIMINARY QUARTER FINALS
4 Round 2 losers v 4 Repechage winners. Separate draw for home advantage.
QUARTER FINALS
4 Round 2 winners v 4 Pre QF winners in Croke Park as normal.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8396 - 04/01/2025 09:25:44    2584514

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@tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1205 - 04/01/2025 05:54:22

I do think decoupling Provs will kill them - Ulster & Connacht are good in fairness. Awarding match pts for Prov ties against similar status (own tier) within a league structure might be the sweet spot.
I have crossover tier ties (the likely mismatches) as Prov KO stand alone, not awarding match pts towards league qualification.
Have your cake and eat it too, so to speak.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2953 - 04/01/2025 14:20:22    2584574

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@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8393 - 04/01/2025 09:25:44

That's a tidying up of the 2025 set up - I do prefer that 'Jim McGuinness' 4+1+11 (in lieu of 8+1+7).
Given the back door, I wonder if an Open Draw Rd 1 would set up some exciting top matchups?
Then seed the rest of the rds - top half v low half, based on league, so you could have Prov Champs matchup - for Rds 2, PQFs, QFs & SFs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2953 - 04/01/2025 14:43:37    2584584

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Replying To omahant:  "@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8393 - 04/01/2025 09:25:44

That's a tidying up of the 2025 set up - I do prefer that 'Jim McGuinness' 4+1+11 (in lieu of 8+1+7).
Given the back door, I wonder if an Open Draw Rd 1 would set up some exciting top matchups?
Then seed the rest of the rds - top half v low half, based on league, so you could have Prov Champs matchup - for Rds 2, PQFs, QFs & SFs."
You could but there has to be an incentive for winning the province. There should also be jeopardy for being a Seed 4. The Tailteann winner like Down having home advantage in Round 1 should be a plus as well.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8396 - 04/01/2025 15:58:02    2584592

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Replying To legendzxix:  "You could but there has to be an incentive for winning the province. There should also be jeopardy for being a Seed 4. The Tailteann winner like Down having home advantage in Round 1 should be a plus as well."
I suppose I'd just give Prov Champs a berth in AIC Rd of 16 and just seed with home ties based on league ranking (I just think it's fairer, given Prov strength disparity).

To go off on a tangent - US College Football (CFB, American Football) is currently playing its playoffs, its first year with an expanded 12-team KO.
Four conference champs were provided high seeds and 1st rd byes. There has been a lot of controversy because stronger teams had to play in the 1st rd and many feel it's unfair. Some favour seedings based on match record/performance - sound familiar?

Another one - In a little over an hour, Minnesota hosts Detroit in the last game of the NFL regular season. Both teams are 14-2 teams, the two best records. However, as NFL prioritises seeding for division winners, the winner of that match will be seeded 1 (with a bye and two home ties) and the loser 5 (no bye and at least two, if not three, away ties), if they get to their Conference Championship games.
Again, many are crying foul - saying the teams should be seeded 1 & 2 - sound familiar again?
The NFL might argue, that given the 1 & 5 disparity, there is more on the line for winning the division - if 1 & 2, it's almost a dead rubber.
While you could argue either way - I'm with the 'crying foul' crowd - reward the season performance (in CFB, NFL, GAA or my AILC).
At least, I want to be consistent.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2953 - 06/01/2025 00:07:45    2584736

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