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Football Format Changes Discussion

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People seem to over estimate the distances that supporters want to travel. The Munster hurling championship offers 2 home and 2 away games in Munster. It is bringing in big crowds with competitive local rivalries and good competition.
Ulster in 2 groups of 4 would be an incredible championship. Connacht with Galway, Mayo and Roscommon will be very competitive. While Kerry would understandably be favourites, there should be a battle between Cork and Clare for top 2. As things stand Cork and Clare are not getting to battle for the final through a lopsided draw. Clare usually give Kerry a good game in Ennis. Cork can be tricky on their day.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 15/12/2024 21:24:50    2583684

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@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8366 - 15/12/2024 21:24:50

I see your point on local rivalries, re Ulster & Connacht - but Leinster & Munster are still duds.

National rivalries spice things up all the same - do you think fans wouldn't travel for Kerry/Dubs, Kerry/Donegal or Galway/Armagh?

I dream of my AILC....

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2944 - 16/12/2024 03:17:28    2583703

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Replying To omahant:  "@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8366 - 15/12/2024 21:24:50

I see your point on local rivalries, re Ulster & Connacht - but Leinster & Munster are still duds.

National rivalries spice things up all the same - do you think fans wouldn't travel for Kerry/Dubs, Kerry/Donegal or Galway/Armagh?

I dream of my AILC...."
I think those national rivalries suit knockout football. Others will disagree. Some people are put off the season ticket by the number of meaningless games and then the travel.
Cork and Clare on recent form would be a good group stage rivalry for qualifying for a Munster final. Clare in Ennis can't be taken for granted. Clare would have Limerick or Tipperary snapping at their heels to avoid relegation.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 16/12/2024 12:26:55    2583730

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@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8367 - 16/12/2024 12:26:55

That's a fair point about season tickets - which I gave no thought to.

Separately, Pat Spillane in his column in the Sunday World yesterday, thinks the FRC should have addressed the hand pass as well. He thinks by leaving it as is, it will retain the current keep ball when a team wants to run down the clock.

In lieu of counting consecutive hand passes up to a limit - I'd like a mandatory inter-zone kick instead.
Say, replace the requirement at kick out - from 20m to beyond the 40m arc (a "20-40") - to a "45-65" instead, with plenty of midfield contests. The kick out could be short and quick then, even a "tap-n-go" and the defence could no longer keep 12 back (unless kicking further to a '3-up' teammate). So say this is engineered - I don't care if it improves the spectacle.

Finally, instead of a "shot clock", maybe a team in possession should be required to "move the ball forward" (like in the NFL) within a reasonable constraint - say, in three stages - move to beyond own 45, beyond other 45 and a scoring attempt - with each stage having a new 30 seconds limit. The 30 seconds could be an 'unscientific' guide, with refs only calling clear breaches.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2944 - 16/12/2024 16:01:49    2583765

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@ omahant (USA) - Posts: 2924 - 16/12/2024 16:01:49

I'd be curious to know why the FRC didn't look at limiting the hand pass alright. By and large the rule changes seem positive.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 16/12/2024 18:51:05    2583785

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Replying To legendzxix:  "@ omahant (USA) - Posts: 2924 - 16/12/2024 16:01:49

I'd be curious to know why the FRC didn't look at limiting the hand pass alright. By and large the rule changes seem positive."
Yes I think, by and large, the enhancements are all good.
I just felt watching the Inter-Pro SFs, it was still a 'basketball-style' procession moving the ball to midfield.
That's what is primarily driving my desire for a 'forced' kick from behind the defensive 45 to between the 65s or beyond.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2944 - 17/12/2024 02:41:09    2583816

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Replying To omahant:  "Yes I think, by and large, the enhancements are all good.
I just felt watching the Inter-Pro SFs, it was still a 'basketball-style' procession moving the ball to midfield.
That's what is primarily driving my desire for a 'forced' kick from behind the defensive 45 to between the 65s or beyond."
In the inter pros, Niall Morgan took possession in the attacking half late on and was able to be the extra player to set up piggy in the middle between halfway and the defensive 45. Not being allowed pass back over half way might be one option so that the defence pushes up on that piggy in the middle scenario. Another option would be keepers not receiving the ball until inside the defensive 45.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 17/12/2024 09:21:13    2583820

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Replying To legendzxix:  "In the inter pros, Niall Morgan took possession in the attacking half late on and was able to be the extra player to set up piggy in the middle between halfway and the defensive 45. Not being allowed pass back over half way might be one option so that the defence pushes up on that piggy in the middle scenario. Another option would be keepers not receiving the ball until inside the defensive 45."
That's my biggest concern with the new rules. Bringing the goalkeeper up will always allow for the extra man and some keep ball. There will be 3 less defenders as as the 40 meter arc having to be closely guarded so I'd expect a team could safely hold possession between the 45 and 65 for as long as they want until a defender switches off and the ball progresses forward safely. Our recent experience shows that the Intercounty Crowd switches off long before the Intercounty Defender.

We can add to that that 3 defenders will need to stay back - so the risk of leaving the goal completely open is less than before. The goal keeper will become the quarterback of the GAA; the most pivotal position.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 370 - 17/12/2024 12:41:35    2583840

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Replying To omahant:  "@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8366 - 15/12/2024 21:24:50

I see your point on local rivalries, re Ulster & Connacht - but Leinster & Munster are still duds.

National rivalries spice things up all the same - do you think fans wouldn't travel for Kerry/Dubs, Kerry/Donegal or Galway/Armagh?

I dream of my AILC...."
I think people would travel for those games. I think people also overestimate the number of dub fixtures there would be.

A 12 team division where everyone plays everyone once with there being relegation to avoid wouldn't actually have many dud fixtures.

Depending on the structure for relegation and playoff spots it'd likely be rare for a team to be 9 games through and have little to play for.

Maybe a team losing all their fixtures will be down already and a team with all wins be qualified but outside of that there will be plenty to play for still among middling teams.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4344 - 17/12/2024 13:48:54    2583855

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@Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4338 - 17/12/2024 13:48:54

I was thinking how a 3-tier league (assuming you have 12-10-10) could advance teams to my three-tier AIC (from my AILC structure).

Maybe:
Top 6 to AI Sam KO, QFs 3v6 & 4v5

Next 12 (7-18) to AI Shield KO, PQF byes 7,8 & 13,14
(SF4 + 2 'QF loser rd winners' go/stay up)

Next 8 (19-26) to AI Plate KO QFs
(SF4 go/stay up)

Tier 3 league with 'North/South' groups of 4 - play 'own group' twice for total 10 matches (6+4) per team.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2944 - 17/12/2024 15:21:52    2583864

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Replying To omahant:  "@Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4338 - 17/12/2024 13:48:54

I was thinking how a 3-tier league (assuming you have 12-10-10) could advance teams to my three-tier AIC (from my AILC structure).

Maybe:
Top 6 to AI Sam KO, QFs 3v6 & 4v5

Next 12 (7-18) to AI Shield KO, PQF byes 7,8 & 13,14
(SF4 + 2 'QF loser rd winners' go/stay up)

Next 8 (19-26) to AI Plate KO QFs
(SF4 go/stay up)

Tier 3 league with 'North/South' groups of 4 - play 'own group' twice for total 10 matches (6+4) per team."
CORRECTION - ignore the following in my prior post (I was initially considering 12-12-8, as opposed to 12-10-10).


Tier 3 league with 'North/South' groups of 4 - play 'own group' twice for total 10 matches (6+4) per team.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2926 - 17/12/2024 15:21:52

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2944 - 17/12/2024 16:12:36    2583868

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A few former players have spoken in favour of a 12:10:10 split. There are pros and cons as always.
The All Ireland quarter finals is one of the biggest weekends of the year. Difficult to be moving away from that.
Jarlath Burns was calling for the championship to be more of a blunt instrument. The Dublin motion reasonably wants county players available for their clubs. Some conundrum trying to get agreement on all that!
Looking at the current All Ireland groups of 4, ideally it could determine a top 11 for automatic qualification for the next year. This way 5 spots are kept vacant for 4 provincial winners and the Tailteann winner.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 17/12/2024 18:22:31    2583890

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Now two pointers will only be one point if any deflection or the goalkeeper gets his hand on effort. Talk about making things up as they go along.

Drax_the_destroyer (UK) - Posts: 266 - 17/12/2024 20:13:07    2583904

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Replying To legendzxix:  "A few former players have spoken in favour of a 12:10:10 split. There are pros and cons as always.
The All Ireland quarter finals is one of the biggest weekends of the year. Difficult to be moving away from that.
Jarlath Burns was calling for the championship to be more of a blunt instrument. The Dublin motion reasonably wants county players available for their clubs. Some conundrum trying to get agreement on all that!
Looking at the current All Ireland groups of 4, ideally it could determine a top 11 for automatic qualification for the next year. This way 5 spots are kept vacant for 4 provincial winners and the Tailteann winner."
I can understand where Dublin are coming from.

There's about 38 good weekends for football in a year at a push. March to October and maybe a couple of weekends extra either side of that. The inter-county takes up about 23 of those. The balance is not right, particularly given that the club game has to be divided by 2 codes.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4344 - 17/12/2024 20:33:37    2583906

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Replying To legendzxix:  "A few former players have spoken in favour of a 12:10:10 split. There are pros and cons as always.
The All Ireland quarter finals is one of the biggest weekends of the year. Difficult to be moving away from that.
Jarlath Burns was calling for the championship to be more of a blunt instrument. The Dublin motion reasonably wants county players available for their clubs. Some conundrum trying to get agreement on all that!
Looking at the current All Ireland groups of 4, ideally it could determine a top 11 for automatic qualification for the next year. This way 5 spots are kept vacant for 4 provincial winners and the Tailteann winner."
What do you think Jarlath means by "blunt" in this sense - do you recall where/when he made the comment?

With the '4 groups of 4', if we have only the 'top 8' only to AI QFs, while your 'top 11' retains Tier 1 for the next year - that might have the desired jeopardy.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2944 - 17/12/2024 20:58:31    2583911

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Replying To omahant:  "What do you think Jarlath means by "blunt" in this sense - do you recall where/when he made the comment?

With the '4 groups of 4', if we have only the 'top 8' only to AI QFs, while your 'top 11' retains Tier 1 for the next year - that might have the desired jeopardy."
I was listening to the sports news when he said it while a draw was taking place during the summer!
https://www.rte.ie/sport/football/2024/0617/1455104-burns-football-championship-change-likely-next-season/
Leinster and Ulster get a raw deal that they have to win at least 2 games for All Ireland qualification while some Connacht and Munster counties only have to win 1 game. Possibly under the current setup Ulster and Leinster semi-finalists should qualify? It would spice up the early provincial rounds if only 3 places were available through the league.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 18/12/2024 09:04:52    2583943

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Replying To legendzxix:  "I was listening to the sports news when he said it while a draw was taking place during the summer!
https://www.rte.ie/sport/football/2024/0617/1455104-burns-football-championship-change-likely-next-season/
Leinster and Ulster get a raw deal that they have to win at least 2 games for All Ireland qualification while some Connacht and Munster counties only have to win 1 game. Possibly under the current setup Ulster and Leinster semi-finalists should qualify? It would spice up the early provincial rounds if only 3 places were available through the league."
I just think this is moving in the wrong direction, going more like a worse version of the old qualifier system.

At the heart of a lot of these issues are the GAA trying to go halfway towards a solution.

Do we want a tiered championship or not. Well one of the main reasons for tiering competition is to allow more games at a level without losing intensity because you have promotion and relegation. You are then moving away from a knockout based championship.

It's kind of absurd to me that we are going from a double elimination championship to a triple elimination championship. I don't think there was a big issue in the past in terms of the championship determining the winner of the All Ireland. The issue was with having teams only guaranteed 2 matches in the main competition but barely any impact would be felt by having a triple elimination competition.

I feel like then the association also prioritises existing lesser important factors at the expense of getting the flagship competition right.

National league 4 divisions of 8 set up
National League finals
Tailteann Cup
All Ireland quarterfinals.
Provincials being linked to All Ireland
League also flowing into All Ireland

These are all things that are getting protected and are hampering in some way the flexibility to come up with are more harmonious championship. None of the above elements are bad in their own right but they can't all coexist.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4344 - 18/12/2024 11:40:01    2583973

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@ Whammo86,
"At the heart of a lot of these issues are the GAA trying to go halfway towards a solution."
I'd agree with that. In suggesting Ulster and Leinster semi-finalists should qualify, I'm just musing is there an option to add more jeopardy to the provincial championships. Proposal B a few years back was going to have teams going from league to knockout All Ireland championship.
The league could be used for balanced provincial draws. The 2 Connacht semi final winners, 4 Ulster quarter final winners, 4 Leinster quarter final winners and 2 Munster semi final winners could qualify through the provincial route. It would add jeopardy to the majority of those 12 provincial matches. There would be 4 vacant spots for 3 league qualifiers and the Tailteann winner.
Going from league to near knockout provincial championship isn't drastically different to elements of Proposal B. If 2024 league form carried through to championship for the above:
ULSTER: Derry, Tyrone, Armagh and Donegal, LEINSTER: Dublin, Meath, Louth and Kildare, MUNSTER: Kerry and Cork and CONNACHT: Mayo and Galway would be the 12 going forward to the All-Ireland. As Tailteann winners Meath would have qualified through the provincial route: Roscommon, Monaghan, Cavan and Westmeath would be 4 league qualifiers.
As the Tailteann Cup participants would be known after 3 weekends of provincial championship, the Tailteann Cup could actually start on the same weekend as the Connacht and Munster finals, reducing the wait from provincial knockout to Tailteann.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 18/12/2024 17:40:09    2584022

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@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8374 - 18/12/2024 17:40:09

Would my AI Shield KO for 12 teams, ranked 9-20, be worth winning?
9-12 get PQF byes and retain League Tier 1 status.
13-20 in PQFs, 4 winners go/stay up, so PQFs double as promotion/ relegation playoffs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2944 - 19/12/2024 03:39:25    2584060

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@Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4340 - 18/12/2024 11:40:01

It will be 'quadruple elimination' again in 2025, so they're making progress.

In my AILC, is it ok to have Prov Champs needing to make the 'top 8' to advance to Sam? - i.e. no Sam guarantee and Tier 2 is ineligible at the start of the season (competes for Shield and Plate berths only)?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2944 - 19/12/2024 03:49:15    2584062

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