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Replying To omahant: "I like the AFL playoff format too - it operates in the Liam McCarthy Cup and I have it in my AILC idea.
Although, if they bring back the old Qualifiers, for better balance, I prefer two unbeaten Champs + 6 Qualifiers to AIC QFs (instead of 2+2 to SFs, as Kerry/Dubs still get an "easy" ride to that AFL-8)." With the old qualifiers - the 8 quarter finalists had either won their provincial championship or the final qualifying round. All 8 had won their previous championship match. 8/8.
With the current structure, 12/16 teams have lost their previous championship match. Teams are falling into the All Ireland championship as opposed to earning it with a win.
There is scope for 14 non finalists entering a playoff to qualify for the All Ireland series. While Derry would be raging hot favourites against Sligo, it would still be a potential banana skin. Same for Roscommon v Kildare or Monaghan v Down.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 10/12/2024 20:01:33
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Replying To GreenandRed: "What have Jarlath Burns or Munster football got to do with my question in response to your post?" I e thought about this a bit.
I do think there was some advantage to the old qualifier system where if teams won through they got a shot at a team of a higher standard. I think where it fell down was that progress was tough to judge. Was luck of draw or a 1 off freak result a true reflection of the work being put into a team. Lesser teams didn't then have a shot at championship glory. There was a prestige associated with getting to All Ireland quarterfinals but that was structurally more difficult depending on the Province a county hailed from. It's no coincidence that Leinster has the greatest percentage of teams to not have made the last 8 during the qualifiers era, it probably contributed to the decline of the game outside of Dublin. Get knocked out before the final and you're 3 games from the last 8 in a draw with plenty of tricky Ulster teams ready to turn their season back around.
If the season started off with a knockout style secondary competition and then finished with a more league style approach, maybe it would be a more sensible approach.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4344 - 12/12/2024 12:26:52
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Replying To Whammo86: "I e thought about this a bit.
I do think there was some advantage to the old qualifier system where if teams won through they got a shot at a team of a higher standard. I think where it fell down was that progress was tough to judge. Was luck of draw or a 1 off freak result a true reflection of the work being put into a team. Lesser teams didn't then have a shot at championship glory. There was a prestige associated with getting to All Ireland quarterfinals but that was structurally more difficult depending on the Province a county hailed from. It's no coincidence that Leinster has the greatest percentage of teams to not have made the last 8 during the qualifiers era, it probably contributed to the decline of the game outside of Dublin. Get knocked out before the final and you're 3 games from the last 8 in a draw with plenty of tricky Ulster teams ready to turn their season back around.
If the season started off with a knockout style secondary competition and then finished with a more league style approach, maybe it would be a more sensible approach." In the context of the old qualifiers, what they needed was seeding based on league placing.
The current system of Clare from Division 3 earning a Seed 2 status for beating Tipperary or Waterford is ridiculous. Clubs then are being deprived of their best players while lopsided provincial championships and lack of jeopardy round robins go through monotonous motion.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 12/12/2024 20:40:27
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Replying To legendzxix: "In the context of the old qualifiers, what they needed was seeding based on league placing.
The current system of Clare from Division 3 earning a Seed 2 status for beating Tipperary or Waterford is ridiculous. Clubs then are being deprived of their best players while lopsided provincial championships and lack of jeopardy round robins go through monotonous motion." Yes I agree with that.
I don't even think the old qualifiers were as bad as people made out.
So seeding based on the league would make sense.
I also think a little bit of adjustment to entry points would have made sense.
So 12 teams would avoid a first round. Semifinalists in Ulster and Leinster, finalists in Connacht and Munster.
Of the 20 other teams 16 would enter round 1, with 4 byes given with a preference for those that won a Provincial fixture before being eliminated.
Remaining 4 join round 1 winners to make up 6 round 2 ties.
Those round 2 winners are joined by losing semifinalists in Ulster, Leinster and Losing finalists in Munster and Connacht in round 3.
Round 4 has the round 3 winners joined by the Ulster and Leinster finalists.
Provinces should be used for entry point to the All Ireland but then league used for seeding.
In terms of the calendar. I think you can have Provincial and All Ireland club at the start of year with All Ireland club football finished on 2nd last week March. Intercounty football start first week of February and be given 21 weeks, it finishes later, 4th week of August but most teams would be done earlier than that and allow for club championship to get going as soon as county ends.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4344 - 13/12/2024 09:29:26
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Replying To Whammo86: "Yes I agree with that.
I don't even think the old qualifiers were as bad as people made out.
So seeding based on the league would make sense.
I also think a little bit of adjustment to entry points would have made sense.
So 12 teams would avoid a first round. Semifinalists in Ulster and Leinster, finalists in Connacht and Munster.
Of the 20 other teams 16 would enter round 1, with 4 byes given with a preference for those that won a Provincial fixture before being eliminated.
Remaining 4 join round 1 winners to make up 6 round 2 ties.
Those round 2 winners are joined by losing semifinalists in Ulster, Leinster and Losing finalists in Munster and Connacht in round 3.
Round 4 has the round 3 winners joined by the Ulster and Leinster finalists.
Provinces should be used for entry point to the All Ireland but then league used for seeding.
In terms of the calendar. I think you can have Provincial and All Ireland club at the start of year with All Ireland club football finished on 2nd last week March. Intercounty football start first week of February and be given 21 weeks, it finishes later, 4th week of August but most teams would be done earlier than that and allow for club championship to get going as soon as county ends." Most Club Championships don't start till August, even in Counties eliminated in mid June!
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2005 - 13/12/2024 11:23:52
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....Intercounty football start first week of February and be given 21 weeks, it finishes later, 4th week of August but most teams would be done earlier than that and allow for club championship to get going as soon as county ends.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4334 - 13/12/2024
1st wk Feb to 4th wk Aug is about 30 wks straight - are you carving out some for club or something?
As for your AI Qualifiers, you have:
12 + 4 + (Rd 1 Qual 16)
12 + (Rd 2 Qual 12)
6 + (Rd 3 Qual 12)
4 Champs + (Rd 4 Qual 8)
AI QFs, SFs, F.
I prefer your prior (based on League):
16 + (non-Prov F, Div 3v4, Rd 1 Qual 16)
8 + (non-Prov Champ, Div 2v3/4, Rd 2 Qual 16)
Rd of 16, QFs, SFs, F.
I had:
A) SF 16 + (Rd 1 Qual 16)
F 8 + (Rd 2 Qual 16, all 16 "A losers")
Champs PO 4 + (Rd 3 Qual 20, incl 16 Rds 1/2 winners)
Rd 4 Qual 12
AI QFs, SFs, F.
I also like AIC entry point based on Prov progress and seeding based on league.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2944 - 13/12/2024 15:59:51
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The installation of the Tailteann Cup has been the right move. The double eliminator expected to be approved for 2026 and beyond will be an improvement on the current group stage anyway.
It is just small details that need to be ironed out but the likes of Down and Meath have to bring the motions to Congress. Clare's soft route to the All Ireland isn't a good look.
Having county players more available for their clubs has to be considered. I doubt the county boards will want to extend the season due to costs.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 13/12/2024 16:55:33
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "Most Club Championships don't start till August, even in Counties eliminated in mid June!" Yeah I guess some of that can be to do with not wanting to have too big of a gap between County finals and Provincial club kicking off but it does sort of highlight how county championship is being truncated to facilitate club activity that isn't even happening.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4344 - 13/12/2024 16:59:10
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The Dublin motion for county players having more game time with their clubs has set the cat amongst the pigeons. Possibly alternating weekends of Allianz leagues and county leagues is the approach to take?
That should mean decoupling the Allianz Football league from the All Ireland. Unless provincial championships can be decoupled as well, a tiered provincial structure is the only way to go.
Briefly. Leinster and Ulster in 2 groups of 4 each. Connacht and Munster in 1 group of 4 each. Promotion and relegation to a Tier 2 of 8 teams in whatever agreed format.
ALL IRELAND PLAYOFF SEMI FINALS (8 teams)
Third placed teams from the 6 provincial groups, a Tier 2 Tailteann Cup winner from the current year and New York.
ALL IRELAND PLAYOFF FINALS (8 teams)
2 Ulster semi finalists, 2 Leinster semi finalists and 4 playoff semi final winners.
ALL IRELAND PRELIMINARY QUARTER FINALS (8 teams)
4 provincial runners up and 4 playoff winners.
ALL IRELAND QUARTER FINALS (8 teams)
4 provincial winners and 4 Pre QF winners.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 14/12/2024 07:59:49
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Replying To legendzxix: "The Dublin motion for county players having more game time with their clubs has set the cat amongst the pigeons. Possibly alternating weekends of Allianz leagues and county leagues is the approach to take?
That should mean decoupling the Allianz Football league from the All Ireland. Unless provincial championships can be decoupled as well, a tiered provincial structure is the only way to go.
Briefly. Leinster and Ulster in 2 groups of 4 each. Connacht and Munster in 1 group of 4 each. Promotion and relegation to a Tier 2 of 8 teams in whatever agreed format.
ALL IRELAND PLAYOFF SEMI FINALS (8 teams)
Third placed teams from the 6 provincial groups, a Tier 2 Tailteann Cup winner from the current year and New York.
ALL IRELAND PLAYOFF FINALS (8 teams)
2 Ulster semi finalists, 2 Leinster semi finalists and 4 playoff semi final winners.
ALL IRELAND PRELIMINARY QUARTER FINALS (8 teams)
4 provincial runners up and 4 playoff winners.
ALL IRELAND QUARTER FINALS (8 teams)
4 provincial winners and 4 Pre QF winners." "A tiered provincial Championship is the only way to go?"
With all respect that's a seriously emphatic statement that I'd be surprised if too many people agree with.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4344 - 14/12/2024 13:19:46
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Replying To Whammo86: ""A tiered provincial Championship is the only way to go?"
With all respect that's a seriously emphatic statement that I'd be surprised if too many people agree with." People can disagree. It will be difficult to have a tiered All Ireland championship with the provincial link retained. If the Allianz leagues were reduced to 6 rounds to facilitate players being available for clubs, a provincial or All Ireland group stage might be required for guaranteeing a minimum of 3 games.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 14/12/2024 14:28:10
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Replying To legendzxix: "People can disagree. It will be difficult to have a tiered All Ireland championship with the provincial link retained. If the Allianz leagues were reduced to 6 rounds to facilitate players being available for clubs, a provincial or All Ireland group stage might be required for guaranteeing a minimum of 3 games." I think there are other ways you could organise the season to make it tighter that would be better.
You could have Provincial championships feeding into a more league based tiered All Ireland for instance. The league becomes the championship.
Really I'd think that would be way superior to provincial group stages and tiered Provincials. We've gone over that lots and it just has so many weaknesses.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4344 - 14/12/2024 14:57:02
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Does this work? -
Two Options:
OPTION ONE
- Two league tiers of 16
- Play Prov Prelim & QF Rds early (1st half Feb); SFs (end Apr); and Finals (2nd half May)
- After Prov QFs, draw '4 groups of 4' in each tier
- 12-match Regular Season (URC schedule, less 'own-group' ties)
- Prov KO ties (all 4 rds) double as league ties (own tier only); any add'l tier crossover ties (T1vT2) are Prov KO stand alone
- Play 12 of 15 'partial round robins' (avoid own group, play other 12), with all 'own-tier' Prov ties included in the 12
- Teams ranked 1-16 & 17-32, based on 12-match/ 16-team tables, advance to a 'three-tier' AIC for Sam, Shield & Plate
- Teams placed 1 & 17 win 'League 1' & 'League 2'
- Top 8 to AI Sam AFL-style playoffs; 9-20 to AI Shield KO; 21-28 to AI Plate KO (or Tailteann Cup); and 29-32 do not advance
- Prov Champs advance based on League placing (no Sam berth guarantee)
- 'Shield QF 8' earn/retain Tier 1 status the next year.
Or, alternatively:
OPTION TWO
10-match Regular Season, same as "Option One", with the following changes:
- After Prov QFs, draw groups of 6, 5 & 5 in each tier
- Play 10 of 15 'partial round robins' (6 v both 5s, each 5 plays own round-robin group), with all 'own-tier' Prov ties included in the 10.
If interested, I can explain 'group restrictions' to get the Prov ties included.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2944 - 14/12/2024 15:56:38
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Replying To Whammo86: "I think there are other ways you could organise the season to make it tighter that would be better.
You could have Provincial championships feeding into a more league based tiered All Ireland for instance. The league becomes the championship.
Really I'd think that would be way superior to provincial group stages and tiered Provincials. We've gone over that lots and it just has so many weaknesses." If there is a possibility of county players being available for county leagues, alternating weekends with the Allianz Leagues is an option. That however cuts the link of league to championship. Linking league to championship or combining them is limiting county players availability for their clubs.
Leinster is the main weakness in a provincial group stage. Dublin, Meath, Offaly and Wicklow in one group example. Louth, Westmeath, Kildare and Laois in the other example. Should Leinster hold back other provinces from having a balanced and competitive group stage?
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 14/12/2024 17:07:53
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Replying To omahant: "Does this work? -
Two Options:
OPTION ONE
- Two league tiers of 16
- Play Prov Prelim & QF Rds early (1st half Feb); SFs (end Apr); and Finals (2nd half May)
- After Prov QFs, draw '4 groups of 4' in each tier
- 12-match Regular Season (URC schedule, less 'own-group' ties)
- Prov KO ties (all 4 rds) double as league ties (own tier only); any add'l tier crossover ties (T1vT2) are Prov KO stand alone
- Play 12 of 15 'partial round robins' (avoid own group, play other 12), with all 'own-tier' Prov ties included in the 12
- Teams ranked 1-16 & 17-32, based on 12-match/ 16-team tables, advance to a 'three-tier' AIC for Sam, Shield & Plate
- Teams placed 1 & 17 win 'League 1' & 'League 2'
- Top 8 to AI Sam AFL-style playoffs; 9-20 to AI Shield KO; 21-28 to AI Plate KO (or Tailteann Cup); and 29-32 do not advance
- Prov Champs advance based on League placing (no Sam berth guarantee)
- 'Shield QF 8' earn/retain Tier 1 status the next year.
Or, alternatively:
OPTION TWO
10-match Regular Season, same as "Option One", with the following changes:
- After Prov QFs, draw groups of 6, 5 & 5 in each tier
- Play 10 of 15 'partial round robins' (6 v both 5s, each 5 plays own round-robin group), with all 'own-tier' Prov ties included in the 10.
If interested, I can explain 'group restrictions' to get the Prov ties included." The Dublin motion is suggesting running the Allianz Leagues over 14 weeks, with players being made available for 4 rounds of county league. They are also suggesting 4 weeks between league and championship for two rounds of club championships.
It seems to work out as May being a club championship only month, All-Ireland finals on the first two weekends of September and county championships complete by the end of October.
Not all counties can complete their county championships over 4 weeks in May and a further 6 week in autumn. The Allianz Leagues can be completed in 10 or 12 weeks but would have to be limited to 6 rounds to allow player availability for county championships. That could allow for 6 or 8 weeks before June and 6 weeks in autumn.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 15/12/2024 11:41:39
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Replying To legendzxix: "The Dublin motion is suggesting running the Allianz Leagues over 14 weeks, with players being made available for 4 rounds of county league. They are also suggesting 4 weeks between league and championship for two rounds of club championships.
It seems to work out as May being a club championship only month, All-Ireland finals on the first two weekends of September and county championships complete by the end of October.
Not all counties can complete their county championships over 4 weeks in May and a further 6 week in autumn. The Allianz Leagues can be completed in 10 or 12 weeks but would have to be limited to 6 rounds to allow player availability for county championships. That could allow for 6 or 8 weeks before June and 6 weeks in autumn." Going back to nonsense of having 2 parts of Club Championships months apart.
NOOOOO!!
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2005 - 15/12/2024 14:14:56
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Replying To legendzxix: "The Dublin motion is suggesting running the Allianz Leagues over 14 weeks, with players being made available for 4 rounds of county league. They are also suggesting 4 weeks between league and championship for two rounds of club championships.
It seems to work out as May being a club championship only month, All-Ireland finals on the first two weekends of September and county championships complete by the end of October.
Not all counties can complete their county championships over 4 weeks in May and a further 6 week in autumn. The Allianz Leagues can be completed in 10 or 12 weeks but would have to be limited to 6 rounds to allow player availability for county championships. That could allow for 6 or 8 weeks before June and 6 weeks in autumn." The dust never settles before more chopping and changing is raised. The UCL and NFL have implemented formats/ schedules that are left in place for decades (prior to recent UCL Swiss System).
In the GAA, why would the May club-only month be better than the prior April variety?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2944 - 15/12/2024 14:45:17
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Replying To omahant: "The dust never settles before more chopping and changing is raised. The UCL and NFL have implemented formats/ schedules that are left in place for decades (prior to recent UCL Swiss System).
In the GAA, why would the May club-only month be better than the prior April variety?" The Dublin motion is pushing for the club only month. I think county players can be available for 4 rounds of league within the current split season. It will all hinge on where there can be compromise. If the GPA want to keep the current split season, completing the Allianz Leagues over 6 rounds might suit a compromise.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 15/12/2024 17:44:36
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12 TEAM STRUCTURE
This is a framework for a 12 team competition [tournament]. It can be used for any sport involving 12 teams [only]. It is an alternative to a 12 team competition that is divided into 2 groups of 6 with each team having 5 games.
What the structure guarantees is--
5 games for each team.
No dead rubbers.
Every team going into their 5th and final game has a chance of qualifying for the K.O stage.
There are 2 initial group Phases followed by the K.O Stages.
7 [58%] of the 12 teams qualify for K.O Stage.
PHASE 1
12 teams divided into 3 groups of 4 [3 games per team]
PHASE 2
12 teams divided into 4 groups of 3 [2 games per team]
12 teams from Phase 1 are divided as follows-
GROUP 2A
3 Group winners from Phase 1.
GROUP 2B/2C/2D
Each group contains one 2nd one 3nd and one 4th placed team from each group from Phase 1.
In Phase 2 it is necessary for the loser of the first group game to play in the second group game.
K.O STAGES
All group winners [7] across the 2 Phases are guaranteed at least a Q.F place.
The one team that wins 2 groups [and there can only be one- that is the team winning 2A] qualifies for the S.F.
The 7th team qualifying for the Q.F are the non group winner with most points across the both Phases.
Note --there are 3 Q.Fs
edu (Mayo) - Posts: 67 - 15/12/2024 18:11:14
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That's neat - 6 group winners advance from 1A,1B,1C and 2A,2B,2C.
7th (and final) berth, with all to play for by the remaining 6 non-group winners (in 2A, 2B, 2C). Points carry-forward here is all important - good job!
Question for another day - how does Provs & League accompany this?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2944 - 15/12/2024 19:57:05
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