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Players like the rhythm of a game every two weeks. As Leinster and Ulster have 4 rounds, they should require 7 weekends. Connacht and Munster only require 3 rounds, they can play on weekends 2, 4 and 6.
While the groups of 4 with 2 advancing throws up the risk of some dead rubbers, if all group games are two weeks apart, the Round 1 winners could be paired in Round 2, with two weeks for the necessary logistics.
At the end of the group stage, first placed teams could be ranked 1 to 4, second placed teams 5 to 8, third placed teams 9 to 12 and fourth placed teams 13 to 16.
The Championship rankings after the All-Ireland final can be:
1. All-Ireland winners
2. All-Ireland runners-up
3. All-Ireland semi-finalist with higher group stage ranking.
4. All-Ireland semi-finalist with lower group stage ranking.
...
16. All-Ireland group fourth placed team with lowest group stage ranking.
17. Tailteann winner
18. Tailteann runner-up
19. Tailteann semi-finalist with higher group stage ranking.
20. Tailteann semi-finalist with lower group stage ranking.
...
32. Tailteann group fourth placed team with lowest group stage ranking.
The top 7 ranked counties and the Tailteann winner should qualify automatically for the next All-Ireland. 9 to 15 then would depend on the next year's provincial finalists.
The championship ranking could be used for balanced provincial draws. Provincial winners could be given the reward of an extra home game. Provincial runners-up could also be rewarded an extra home game, except if drawn in the same group as the Tailteann winner who would get the extra home game instead.
While a team with 2 wins versus a team with 0 wins might still be categorised as a dead rubber, the group stage ranking and it's influence on potential championship qualification would add something of a competitiveness to proceedings.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 27/06/2024 10:49:39
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Maybe a couple of tweaks to the current round robin, and I think more incentive into winning the provincial championship to add the jeopardy. Also think penalties and score difference need to be taken out of equation. Introduce a gold and silver bonus point to provincial winner and losers to settle groups that end in a tie. Grouping the top 16 as is but introduce a knockout round for teams eliminated 'early' in the provincials.
So,
Provincial championships remain as is.
Knockout qualifier round before round robin for top 16 teams that fail to make provincial final. (extra time and replays)
Reduce the round robin to 4 groups of 3 - Provincial winner, runner up and qualifier round winner. Gold and silver points to settle any ties for 1st or 2nd spot.
Group winners and runners up enter the quarter finals.
This would mean qualifier team probably need to win both group games to get through, whereas provincial finalists get a second chance within the group should they lose a game.
Olaf (Galway) - Posts: 3 - 27/06/2024 22:19:35
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The drawback of groups of 4 with 2 going through is dead rubbers in Round 3. An advantage is that all group games and knockout rounds can be scheduled for every second weekend. The majority of players, managers and even supporters like the rhythm of a game every second weekend.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 28/06/2024 12:55:33
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Replying To legendzxix: "The drawback of groups of 4 with 2 going through is dead rubbers in Round 3. An advantage is that all group games and knockout rounds can be scheduled for every second weekend. The majority of players, managers and even supporters like the rhythm of a game every second weekend." A compromise there could be a "twist" on the double elimination - where most teams could advance after only two rounds and any "third game" would be KO:
- Tier 1, 16 teams.
- Pot 1 has 8 seeds; Pot 2 has 8 non seeds.
- Create a "circle" of teams, drawing two teams from Pot 1, followed by two from Pot 2, then two from Pot 1, two from Pot 2 etc until all 16 are drawn.
- Each team plays an initial two games (drawn ties possible), hosting the team drawn immediately after them on the circle.
- So, each team plays one seed and one non seed, one at home, the other away, based on luck of the draw.
- After 2 games, a combined 16-team table is created.
- All teams with 2 pts or more "make the cut" and advance to a KO 3rd game (could be 8-16 teams), with byes to QFs (variable, based on team count advancing) and others to Prelim QFs.
- Table position to seed the KO rounds (best v worst, 2nd best v 2nd worst etc in each round, subject to non repeat ties, where possible).
Any pairings are possible in the first two games (e.g. Dublin v Kerry).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2886 - 28/06/2024 14:41:41
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Allianz Football League: February 11th to April 14th. (R1, R2, rest, R3, R4, R5, rest, R6, R7 and finals)
Provincial Championships: April 28th to June 2nd. (Current six weeks, with weekend off after league finals.)
All-Ireland Championship: June 16th to August 25th. (R1, rest, Rounds 2A & 2B, rest, R3, rest, QF, rest, SF, rest and final.)
If the All-Ireland Football Championship 16 can be completed over 6 rounds, it will set an example for club championships to do likewise. Proper dual counties can then complete their football and hurling championships over 12 weekends.
The word on the street is that the majority of club players are fine with a September start for the club championships. November 10th county finals for hurling and November 17th county finals for football.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 29/06/2024 09:20:14
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Replying To legendzxix: "Allianz Football League: February 11th to April 14th. (R1, R2, rest, R3, R4, R5, rest, R6, R7 and finals)
Provincial Championships: April 28th to June 2nd. (Current six weeks, with weekend off after league finals.)
All-Ireland Championship: June 16th to August 25th. (R1, rest, Rounds 2A & 2B, rest, R3, rest, QF, rest, SF, rest and final.)
If the All-Ireland Football Championship 16 can be completed over 6 rounds, it will set an example for club championships to do likewise. Proper dual counties can then complete their football and hurling championships over 12 weekends.
The word on the street is that the majority of club players are fine with a September start for the club championships. November 10th county finals for hurling and November 17th county finals for football." Word on the street in Kerry? Up and down the country?
Finishing club championship so late doesn't allow time for Provincial and All Ireland club.
In a County like Wexford that trying to provide 7 championship games minimum and 9 total weekends in hurling (and up to 8 in football) your sort of solution doesn't work at all well.
Club championships can be played off in 6 weeks per code but is that actually what we should want.
The intercounty season is bloated and low stakes right up until the last 4 weekends. Trimming it and giving more time to club really does feel like it'd be a good move overall to me.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 29/06/2024 11:01:17
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This too heavy approach where the intercounty game absolutely dominates the entirety of the rest of the schedule is real short sighted to be honest.
It's like building a house without the foundations.
The club games feeds into the higher level and if it's not looked after better I'd genuinely worry about the association going forward.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 29/06/2024 11:04:17
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Replying To Whammo86: "This too heavy approach where the intercounty game absolutely dominates the entirety of the rest of the schedule is real short sighted to be honest.
It's like building a house without the foundations.
The club games feeds into the higher level and if it's not looked after better I'd genuinely worry about the association going forward." There are media reports that the CPA were happy enough with county championships starting in September. Club championships should be complete over six rounds.
Provincial club quarter-finals first weekend of December with semi-finals on the third weekend. Provincial club finals at the start of January, All-Ireland club semi-finals two weeks later and then another two weeks for the All-Ireland club finals. Complete.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 29/06/2024 11:44:14
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If county clubs were given mid September until December and interprovincialclubs went ahead in Jan and Feb with some county players missing early league games, surely that's a better approach all round
shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 286 - 29/06/2024 12:51:40
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One thing this football championship has is a load of meaningless games and a lack of meaningful games. A lot of the group stage games felt like challenge games played in soulless venues lacking atmosphere. Our football championship needs more games to mean something
Sam Maguire
This format has been used in the Sigerson Cup the past few years
Round 1
In Round 1 the 4 provincial winners are drawn against the 4 worst ranked teams in the Sam Maguire and the 4 provincial losers are drawn against the next best 4 teams
Round 2A
In Round 2A the 8 winning teams of round 1 playoff in 4 games. The 4 winners go straight through to the Quarter Finals.
Round 2B
In round 2B the eight beaten teams from round 1 playoff in four matches. The four losing teams in round 2B are eliminated.
Round 3
In Round 3 the 4 losers from Round 2A playoff against the 4 winners from Round 2B. The 4 losing teams are eliminated which leaves of with 8 teams left
Quarter Finals
The 4 winners from Round 2A will play against the 4 winners from Round 3 in the Quarter Finals
I think this format is great as every game is important. No game is a dead rubber and if you lose 2 games your gone
E.g
Provincial winners Provincial losers
Dublin Louth
Galway Mayo
Kerry Clare
Donegal Armagh
Next best 4 ranked teams Worst 4 ranked teams
Derry Cavan
Tyrone Cork
Roscommon Meath
Monaghan Westmeath
Round 1
Dublin beat Cork
Galway beat Meath
Donegal beat Cavan
Kerry beat Westmeath
Tyrone beat Mayo
Louth beat Monaghan
Roscommon beat Clare
Derry beat Armagh
Round 2A (winners)
Dublin beat Donegal
Louth beat Roscommon
Derry beat Galway
Kerry beat Tyrone
Round 2B (losers)
Meath beat Westmeath(eliminated)
Monaghan beat Clare(eliminated)
Mayo beat Cork(eliminated)
Armagh beat Cavan(eliminated)
Round 3
Mayo beat Donegal(eliminated)
Tyrone beat Monaghan(eliminated)
Roscommon beat Meath(eliminated)
Galway beat Armagh(eliminated)
Quarter Final
Semi Final
Final
SligoD (Sligo) - Posts: 13 - 29/06/2024 15:00:52
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Replying To shaggykev: "If county clubs were given mid September until December and interprovincialclubs went ahead in Jan and Feb with some county players missing early league games, surely that's a better approach all round" I think that's fine as well. It will require agreement on decoupling the league from championship. How 7 teams join 8 provincial finalists and the Tailteann winner in the All-Ireland 16 would have to be figured out however.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 29/06/2024 15:19:18
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Replying To legendzxix: "The drawback of groups of 4 with 2 going through is dead rubbers in Round 3. An advantage is that all group games and knockout rounds can be scheduled for every second weekend. The majority of players, managers and even supporters like the rhythm of a game every second weekend." Just pair the two winners together in the 2nd round and it reduces the chances of dead rubber 3rd round games… 3/4 going through is just ridiculous
ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3025 - 29/06/2024 15:59:58
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Replying To SligoD: "One thing this football championship has is a load of meaningless games and a lack of meaningful games. A lot of the group stage games felt like challenge games played in soulless venues lacking atmosphere. Our football championship needs more games to mean something
Sam Maguire
This format has been used in the Sigerson Cup the past few years
Round 1
In Round 1 the 4 provincial winners are drawn against the 4 worst ranked teams in the Sam Maguire and the 4 provincial losers are drawn against the next best 4 teams
Round 2A
In Round 2A the 8 winning teams of round 1 playoff in 4 games. The 4 winners go straight through to the Quarter Finals.
Round 2B
In round 2B the eight beaten teams from round 1 playoff in four matches. The four losing teams in round 2B are eliminated.
Round 3
In Round 3 the 4 losers from Round 2A playoff against the 4 winners from Round 2B. The 4 losing teams are eliminated which leaves of with 8 teams left
Quarter Finals
The 4 winners from Round 2A will play against the 4 winners from Round 3 in the Quarter Finals
I think this format is great as every game is important. No game is a dead rubber and if you lose 2 games your gone
E.g
Provincial winners Provincial losers
Dublin Louth
Galway Mayo
Kerry Clare
Donegal Armagh
Next best 4 ranked teams Worst 4 ranked teams
Derry Cavan
Tyrone Cork
Roscommon Meath
Monaghan Westmeath
Round 1
Dublin beat Cork
Galway beat Meath
Donegal beat Cavan
Kerry beat Westmeath
Tyrone beat Mayo
Louth beat Monaghan
Roscommon beat Clare
Derry beat Armagh
Round 2A (winners)
Dublin beat Donegal
Louth beat Roscommon
Derry beat Galway
Kerry beat Tyrone
Round 2B (losers)
Meath beat Westmeath(eliminated)
Monaghan beat Clare(eliminated)
Mayo beat Cork(eliminated)
Armagh beat Cavan(eliminated)
Round 3
Mayo beat Donegal(eliminated)
Tyrone beat Monaghan(eliminated)
Roscommon beat Meath(eliminated)
Galway beat Armagh(eliminated)
Quarter Final
Semi Final
Final" I agree with most of that. I would just add that the Seed 1 or 4 winners should be drawn against the Seed 2 or 3 winners in Round 2A. Similarly the Seed 1 or 4 losers should be drawn against the Seed 2 or 3 losers in Round 2B. This keeps provincial winners who keep on winning apart until the semi-finals. Round 1 is 1 v 4 and 2 v 3. Round 2 is 1 or 4 v 2 or 3.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 29/06/2024 16:39:36
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Replying To ForeverBlue2: "Just pair the two winners together in the 2nd round and it reduces the chances of dead rubber 3rd round games… 3/4 going through is just ridiculous" Round 1 winners playing in Round 2 is perfectly fine. The GAA's reluctance with it though is that teams on 2 wins against teams on 0 wins are most likely into a dead rubber.
If counties were ranking 1 to 16 based on championship knockout progression and group stage performance, with the top 7 qualifying for the next year's championship, a team on 0 wins might at least want to finish as the third best 4th placed team. The worst fourth placed team would be ranked 16th, first in line to be replaced by the Tailteann winner.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 29/06/2024 16:44:40
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Replying To legendzxix: "There are media reports that the CPA were happy enough with county championships starting in September. Club championships should be complete over six rounds.
Provincial club quarter-finals first weekend of December with semi-finals on the third weekend. Provincial club finals at the start of January, All-Ireland club semi-finals two weeks later and then another two weeks for the All-Ireland club finals. Complete." No respect for club players whatsoever.
ORIELMAN85 (Monaghan) - Posts: 386 - 30/06/2024 00:16:19
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Replying To legendzxix: "I think that's fine as well. It will require agreement on decoupling the league from championship. How 7 teams join 8 provincial finalists and the Tailteann winner in the All-Ireland 16 would have to be figured out however." And mine above? - "circle" a needless complication?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2730 - 28/06/2024 14:41:41
So, team drawn to "Slot 1" hosts 2, 2 hosts 3 etc.
Now, if this was a 3-team group, 3 would host 1 - but I have 3v4 and 16v1 instead - more fixture variety a la the Swiss System.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2886 - 30/06/2024 23:23:10
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Replying To omahant: "And mine above? - "circle" a needless complication?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2730 - 28/06/2024 14:41:41
So, team drawn to "Slot 1" hosts 2, 2 hosts 3 etc.
Now, if this was a 3-team group, 3 would host 1 - but I have 3v4 and 16v1 instead - more fixture variety a la the Swiss System." Double elimination is straightforward. Circle what now?
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 01/07/2024 18:12:36
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https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/332622
The GPA are opposed to extending the intercounty season. If the GPA are to be accommodated, possibly the league starting at the end of February and the All-Ireland finals at the end of August is the compromise.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 02/07/2024 12:03:25
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Replying To legendzxix: " https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/332622The GPA are opposed to extending the intercounty season. If the GPA are to be accommodated, possibly the league starting at the end of February and the All-Ireland finals at the end of August is the compromise."
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2886 - 02/07/2024 16:20:24
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Replying To legendzxix: "Double elimination is straightforward. Circle what now?" Copied from my earlier post:
- Tier 1, 16 teams.
- Pot 1 has 8 seeds; Pot 2 has 8 non seeds.
- Create a "circle" of teams, drawing two teams from Pot 1, followed by two from Pot 2, then two from Pot 1, two from Pot 2 etc until all 16 are drawn.
- Each team plays an initial two games (drawn ties possible), hosting the team drawn immediately after them on the circle.
- So, each team plays one seed and one non seed, one at home, the other away, based on luck of the draw.
- After 2 games, a combined 16-team table is created.
- All teams with 2 pts or more "make the cut" and advance to a KO 3rd game (could be 8-16 teams), with byes to QFs (variable, based on team count advancing) and others to Prelim QFs.
- Table position to seed the KO rounds (best v worst, 2nd best v 2nd worst etc in each round, subject to non repeat ties, where possible).
Any pairings are possible in the first two games (e.g. Dublin v Kerry). So in the circle, 1 hosts 2, 2 hosts 3 - but instead of 3 hosting 1 like in a 3-team group - 3 hosts 4 and 1 plays away at 16 (for fixture variety, circle wraps around). Still, teams get a Prelim QF for winning one game (but out of two) and byes for some doing better (bye count variable, based on quantity of teams on 2pts or more).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2886 - 02/07/2024 16:31:16
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