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Football Format Changes Discussion

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Galway v Armagh, Dublin v Mayo and Kerry v Louth will be good tests of the current system. While going direct to the quarter-finals is a good incentive, is it enough to entice supporters when the runner-up prize is a home game?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8053 - 12/06/2024 10:41:12    2550965

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Jarlath Burns doing a lot of blathering these days.
His point about Derry losing 3 games and still in the running for the AI "not a good look".
He obviously doesn't realise that a Munster Hurling team could do the same.
Or can't run down the cash cow?

Try being positive about football Jarlath!!

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1627 - 12/06/2024 11:48:26    2550986

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Jarlath Burns doing a lot of blathering these days.
His point about Derry losing 3 games and still in the running for the AI "not a good look".
He obviously doesn't realise that a Munster Hurling team could do the same.
Or can't run down the cash cow?

Try being positive about football Jarlath!!"
It is more exasperated in the groups of 4. Supporters are voting with their feet. Burns it right that the Prenty system would draw criticism that the provincial champions are going stale by waiting more than 4 weeks.
The GAA's original plan was knockout all the way for the All-Ireland and double elimination "Old Christy Ring Cup" style for the Tailteann Cup. Seems the most likely outcome.
ALL-IRELAND
Round 1: Seed 3 v Seed 4
Pre-QF: 4 Provincial runners-up v 4 Round 1 winners.
QF: 4 Provincial winners v 4 Pre-QF winners.
TAILTEANN CUP
Round 1: Seed 1 v Seed 2
Round 2A: 8 Round 1 winners. Round 2B: 8 Round 1 losers.
Pre-QF: 4 Round 2A losers v 4 Round 2B winners.
QF: 4 Round 2A winners v 4 Pre-QF winners.
The wrinkle is where to fit in New York.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8053 - 12/06/2024 12:29:20    2550998

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Jarlath/HQ talking to Provinces and Co Boards.
Anyone asking the players ?

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1627 - 12/06/2024 12:48:19    2551004

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Replying To legendzxix:  "It is more exasperated in the groups of 4. Supporters are voting with their feet. Burns it right that the Prenty system would draw criticism that the provincial champions are going stale by waiting more than 4 weeks.
The GAA's original plan was knockout all the way for the All-Ireland and double elimination "Old Christy Ring Cup" style for the Tailteann Cup. Seems the most likely outcome.
ALL-IRELAND
Round 1: Seed 3 v Seed 4
Pre-QF: 4 Provincial runners-up v 4 Round 1 winners.
QF: 4 Provincial winners v 4 Pre-QF winners.
TAILTEANN CUP
Round 1: Seed 1 v Seed 2
Round 2A: 8 Round 1 winners. Round 2B: 8 Round 1 losers.
Pre-QF: 4 Round 2A losers v 4 Round 2B winners.
QF: 4 Round 2A winners v 4 Pre-QF winners.
The wrinkle is where to fit in New York."
That would be good.
Another variation along similar lines....
Sam 20 / Tailteann 12

Sam 20
Rd 1A - 4 Prov Champs head-to-head 'double chance'
Rd 1B - Next best 16 KO
Rd 2A - 2 Rd 1A winners head-to-head
Rd 2B - 2 Rd 1A losers & 8 Rd 1B winners
QFs - 1 Rd 2A loser & 5 Rd 2B winners
SFs - 1 Rd 2A winner & 3 QF winners

Tailteann 12
Rd 1A - Best 8 'double chance'
Rd 1B - Weakest 4 & 4 Rd 1A losers
QFs - 4 Rd 1A winners & 4 Rd 1B winners

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2729 - 12/06/2024 15:42:37    2551031

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Jarlath Burns doing a lot of blathering these days.
His point about Derry losing 3 games and still in the running for the AI "not a good look".
He obviously doesn't realise that a Munster Hurling team could do the same.
Or can't run down the cash cow?

Try being positive about football Jarlath!!"
He is only saying what everyone with an ounce of football knowledge thinks and knows…so when the president of the GAA is talking about it you know there is a big problem…. I don't think any team who lost 3 games in the Munster hurling championship could qualify out of the group…?

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 2173 - 12/06/2024 15:53:12    2551037

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Galway v Armagh, Dublin v Mayo and Kerry v Louth will be good tests of the current system. While going direct to the quarter-finals is a good incentive, is it enough to entice supporters when the runner-up prize is a home game?"
It is said that '2 from 4' leads to dead rubbers, but '3 from 4' has little jeopardy - so split the difference then? - '2.5 from 4', or just have combined '10 from 16', with Middle 4 to Prelim QFs, and two winners joining top 6 (seeded 1 to 6) in QFs.

Or, like the Muns SHC, have '3 of 5' - from 4 groups of 5, with each group containing a Prov Final, spread across different round robin rounds.

Or, '5 groups of 4', each with one or two Prov SFs from different Provs (best 10 of 20 to KO). Complete groups targetting similar mixed quality. Other 12 to '3 groups of 4' Tailteann Cup (best 6 of 12 to KO).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2729 - 12/06/2024 17:51:53    2551066

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1. Football Provincial finals
2. Hurling Provincial finals
3. Football Pre-QF
4. Hurling quarter-finals
5. Football quarter-finals.
In most formats that the GAA want no more than 4 weeks between football provincial finals and quarter-finals, so that provincial champions don't go stale, all 4 football provincial finals would have to be on the same weekend.
An option there is that provincial winners go direct to quarter-finals. The 7 league qualifiers and Tailteann winner them would contest the preliminary quarter-finals. The Tailteann winner could have guarantee of home advantage.
The Tailteann could have 10 teams over 4 knockout rounds. Provincial runners-up could be guaranteed at least a Tailteann Cup spot.
A Tier 3 then of the remaining 10 plus New York can also be completed over 4 knockout rounds.
The Tailteann and Tier 3 finals can be a double header on the Saturday before the All-Ireland final.
Teams at the following stages could have a home and away arrangement:
• All-Ireland preliminary quarter-finals. Exception of Tailteann winner guaranteed home game.
• Tailteann Pre-QF, quarter-finals and semi-finals. Exception of Tier 3 winner guaranteed home game in their first round.
• Tier 3 Pre-QF, quarter-finals and semi-finals.
The All-Ireland, Tailteann and Tier 3 knockout rounds can all run in parallel.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8053 - 12/06/2024 19:06:52    2551074

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "He is only saying what everyone with an ounce of football knowledge thinks and knows…so when the president of the GAA is talking about it you know there is a big problem…. I don't think any team who lost 3 games in the Munster hurling championship could qualify out of the group…?"
Limerick win their 4 games 8pts
Cork win their other 3 games 6pts
Tipp, Clare and Waterford now have lost 2 games.
Then Tipp bt Clare, Clare bt Waterford and Waterford bt Tipp.
All on 2 pts, all have lost 3 games.
1 of them goes through to AI Championship

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1627 - 12/06/2024 23:44:36    2551098

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Limerick win their 4 games 8pts
Cork win their other 3 games 6pts
Tipp, Clare and Waterford now have lost 2 games.
Then Tipp bt Clare, Clare bt Waterford and Waterford bt Tipp.
All on 2 pts, all have lost 3 games.
1 of them goes through to AI Championship"
You wouldn't get away with not winning at least one game out of your last four in the Championship which you can do in this nonsensical football format…and couple that with the absolute boring dross that's being played and even a blind man can see why nobody in their right minds would pay into these games… Even the President of the GAA says there is a problem so there must be something drastically wrong when a GAA big wig admits to the association getting something wrong… It's only a tiny minority of dimwits who see no problem with the current football championship set up….

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 2173 - 13/06/2024 08:47:10    2551114

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5/12. Connacht and Munster finals
5/19. Leinster and Ulster finals
5/26. All-Ireland Round 1 for Connacht and Munster finalists.
6/2. All-Ireland Round 1 for Leinster and Ulster finalists.
6/9. Hurling finals.
6/16. All-Ireland Round 2
6/23. All-Ireland Round 3
6/30. All-Ireland quarter-finals
If Round 1 winners met in Round 2, two weeks should be sufficient for the logistics involved. At least one of the Round 3 games in each group, with two only qualifying, will have something on the line. Provincial finalists could be awarded two home games.
The advantage of winning Round 1 and Round 2 could be a bit of leeway in resting players in Round 3, a week before the quarter-finals. Often this could be the provincial winner taking on the Seed 4 away in Round 3.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8053 - 13/06/2024 10:48:43    2551140

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"It is a proposal the CCCC are recommending that counties give serious consideration as it has the potential to ease congestion in the calendar and create a greater 'level' of jeopardy than the current structure with its four-team round-robin groups."
Supposedly the current front runner is the old styled Christy Ring Cup format. Round 1 seeing provincial finalists in Bowl 1 drawn against 7 league qualifiers and the Tailteann winner from Bowl 2.
Round 2A will be contested by the Round 1 winners. The 2A winners direct to quarter-finals. Round 2B will be contested by the Round 1 losers. The 2A losers drawn against 2B winners in the preliminary quarter-finals.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8053 - 13/06/2024 19:08:58    2551275

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Replying To legendzxix:  ""It is a proposal the CCCC are recommending that counties give serious consideration as it has the potential to ease congestion in the calendar and create a greater 'level' of jeopardy than the current structure with its four-team round-robin groups."
Supposedly the current front runner is the old styled Christy Ring Cup format. Round 1 seeing provincial finalists in Bowl 1 drawn against 7 league qualifiers and the Tailteann winner from Bowl 2.
Round 2A will be contested by the Round 1 winners. The 2A winners direct to quarter-finals. Round 2B will be contested by the Round 1 losers. The 2A losers drawn against 2B winners in the preliminary quarter-finals."
Not bad. Maybe provincial finalists should be given home field advantage to put bigger emphasis on front door. It would also give sides like Clare or Meath a leg up after a doing by Kerry/Dublin.

Still doesn't solve imbalance of games played though. Ulster side could play 4 tough games to reach same stage Kerry or Mayo get to only playing 2 including one potential weak side.

shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 246 - 13/06/2024 19:46:54    2551280

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Replying To shaggykev:  "Not bad. Maybe provincial finalists should be given home field advantage to put bigger emphasis on front door. It would also give sides like Clare or Meath a leg up after a doing by Kerry/Dublin.

Still doesn't solve imbalance of games played though. Ulster side could play 4 tough games to reach same stage Kerry or Mayo get to only playing 2 including one potential weak side."
Provincial winners should draw Seed 4 teams at the very least. If there is a separate draw for home advantage, so be it. Galway away to Westmeath, Dublin away to Cavan, Donegal away to Cork or Kerry away to Meath isn't harming anyone.
Provincial winners should avoid each other in Round 2A. This will mean provincial winners who win in 2A avoid each other until the semi-finals. Rounds 1, 2A, 2B and 3 should probably have a draw for home advantage. Give everyone a 50:50 chance of home tie and sure, may the best team win on the day.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8053 - 13/06/2024 21:46:41    2551300

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Replying To shaggykev:  "Not bad. Maybe provincial finalists should be given home field advantage to put bigger emphasis on front door. It would also give sides like Clare or Meath a leg up after a doing by Kerry/Dublin.

Still doesn't solve imbalance of games played though. Ulster side could play 4 tough games to reach same stage Kerry or Mayo get to only playing 2 including one potential weak side."
And Dublin get to after 3 training spin walks in the park.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1627 - 13/06/2024 22:02:06    2551304

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Replying To shaggykev:  "Not bad. Maybe provincial finalists should be given home field advantage to put bigger emphasis on front door. It would also give sides like Clare or Meath a leg up after a doing by Kerry/Dublin.

Still doesn't solve imbalance of games played though. Ulster side could play 4 tough games to reach same stage Kerry or Mayo get to only playing 2 including one potential weak side."
My solution to the latter....

Have Uls Champp ties (and other Provs) 'double up' as league games and award match points.

Then Kerry/Dublin etc plays those Uls sides as 'league only' games as well, so it's fair.

Top teams in league table advance to AIC Playoffs.

I think each team could play 12 games (incl Prov ties, 1 to 4) - versus 3 teams from each of 4 seeding pots of 4. Small population of inter-tier Prov ties (top 16 v bottom 16) played separately/can't double up in own tier 16-team league table.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2729 - 14/06/2024 00:25:32    2551318

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Don't think Jarlath or the GAA will be rushing to make any changes. 8 games at the weekend and not a dead rubber among them. All games so far have consequences down the road. Only a half witted clown could believe that we don't have a good system now. Looking forward to a great weekend of football.will make 4 games this weekend,with a club game on Friday and a Juvenile final on Saturday morning and 2 Sam Maguire Round 3 games on Saturday and Sunday. All for the price of a steak dinner. Thank God for the GAA and to hell with the begrudgers and cry baby's.

ORIELMAN85 (Monaghan) - Posts: 196 - 14/06/2024 02:57:20    2551328

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Replying To ORIELMAN85:  "Don't think Jarlath or the GAA will be rushing to make any changes. 8 games at the weekend and not a dead rubber among them. All games so far have consequences down the road. Only a half witted clown could believe that we don't have a good system now. Looking forward to a great weekend of football.will make 4 games this weekend,with a club game on Friday and a Juvenile final on Saturday morning and 2 Sam Maguire Round 3 games on Saturday and Sunday. All for the price of a steak dinner. Thank God for the GAA and to hell with the begrudgers and cry baby's."
Winning the group or home advantage in the Pre-QF. Winning the group is a good prize but not enthusing crowds. The double elimination will mean everyone has a game under their belts in Round 1. Knockout then in Round 2B.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8053 - 14/06/2024 09:22:16    2551336

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Replying To ORIELMAN85:  "Don't think Jarlath or the GAA will be rushing to make any changes. 8 games at the weekend and not a dead rubber among them. All games so far have consequences down the road. Only a half witted clown could believe that we don't have a good system now. Looking forward to a great weekend of football.will make 4 games this weekend,with a club game on Friday and a Juvenile final on Saturday morning and 2 Sam Maguire Round 3 games on Saturday and Sunday. All for the price of a steak dinner. Thank God for the GAA and to hell with the begrudgers and cry baby's."
The group stage system we have now in the A.I.C /T.C is not perfect but it is a massive improvement on what went before i.e the qualifiers. It gives the players a few more guaranteed championship games and when considering the amount of their time and lives that they put into training and preparation that is the least that they deserve. Personally I think there should be more championship games for teams .The ideal option would be a league based championship [with the league absorbed into a 3 tiered championship]. Obviously with more games the attendances per game will be down[the financial aspect and all that] but overall attendances will be up.Lets call it the new norm.
Getting back to the current structure---its what goes before the group stage where things are not so good. I do not agree with guaranteeing the provincial runners up a place in the group stage.The division 3 winner should be guaranteed a spot. Then there is the farcical situation where a few teams that are knocked out in the first week of the provincials are left waiting for 5/6 weeks for the group stage .

edu (Mayo) - Posts: 51 - 14/06/2024 10:17:16    2551361

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Replying To ORIELMAN85:  "Don't think Jarlath or the GAA will be rushing to make any changes. 8 games at the weekend and not a dead rubber among them. All games so far have consequences down the road. Only a half witted clown could believe that we don't have a good system now. Looking forward to a great weekend of football.will make 4 games this weekend,with a club game on Friday and a Juvenile final on Saturday morning and 2 Sam Maguire Round 3 games on Saturday and Sunday. All for the price of a steak dinner. Thank God for the GAA and to hell with the begrudgers and cry baby's."
I think you've accidentally hit on a big issue with the current setup.

Club Game on Friday; Juvenile Final on Saturday morning and Senior Inter-county on Saturday and Sunday. Sounds like a great advertisement for the Split Season!!

Bigger than any format discussion is that we're rushing the competitions for a split season that exists as a notion rather than in reality. The GAA is much bigger than Intercounty and Senior Football.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 311 - 14/06/2024 10:29:25    2551363

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