National Forum

Football Format Changes Discussion

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Why the need for Groups if you use that system?"
No need for groups. Basically the old Christy Ring Cup format, but with the addition of seeding.
Round 1A: Seeds 1 v 4, Round 1B: Seeds 2 v 3.
Round 2A: Round 1A winners v Round 1B winners, Round 2B: Round 1A losers v Round 1B losers.
Round 3: 4 losers from 2A v 4 winners from 2B.
Quarter-finals: 4 winners from 2A v 4 winners from Round 3.
The wrinkle to iron out is the reward of home advantage. Arguably provincial winners should have home advantage in Round 1. Possibly provincial runners-up also with home advantage.
The highest seed in Round 2A could also have home advantage, potential advantage for provincial winners above provincial runners-up. As 2B features Round 1 losers, random draw for home advantage.
Round 3 could give home advantage to the Round 2A losers, a reward for having won Round 1.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8053 - 30/05/2024 16:53:24    2548452

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Replying To brianb:  "In that scenario there isn't much point in playing the winner of two games v loser off two games match. When you think about it that would be a good way to solve the dead rubber problem. You could also get rid of the preliminary quarter finals.

4 groups of 4
Round 1 - seeded 1 v 4 2 v 3
Round 2 - winners play - winner into 1/4 final; loser into Round 3.
Round 2 - losers play - winner into Round 3 loser out.
Round 3 - one game qualifiers from round 2 - winners into 1/4 final

Every game would have a lot riding on it."
This still leads to a scenario where Kerry are seeded 1 simply by beating one Division 4 team and one Division 3 team.

Then they will need to beat a Division 3 team to get to Round 2 (but have safety net of Losers Bracket.) in round 2 they will play at best a Provincial Runner-up, and should they win it's a QF. 4 games and in QF and they may never meet a Division 2 team. If they lose any of these games they have the safety net of only needing to beat another losing team.

SurelyToGod (Donegal) - Posts: 410 - 30/05/2024 22:42:26    2548492

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Replying To SurelyToGod:  "This still leads to a scenario where Kerry are seeded 1 simply by beating one Division 4 team and one Division 3 team.

Then they will need to beat a Division 3 team to get to Round 2 (but have safety net of Losers Bracket.) in round 2 they will play at best a Provincial Runner-up, and should they win it's a QF. 4 games and in QF and they may never meet a Division 2 team. If they lose any of these games they have the safety net of only needing to beat another losing team."
Seed based on league only.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2729 - 31/05/2024 01:58:18    2548499

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The current system is backwards and until that is fixed the interest in it will be low.

Early season should be about every county getting a chance to position themselves into their appropriate level

Late season should be about fierce competition at your level.

The current season is all over the place

League have 4 levels but played first
Provincials are open to all and played in the middle
All Ireland is two levels and played last with a format designed to keep poor teams playing longer.

Any new format needs to build over the season and reward good performance

Start with two tiered provincials - A and B with B winner getting into A semi finals

Move onto leagues with two tiers - Div1 A&B and div 2A&B
Giving all counties a chance to improve by playing a wide range of opponents of different levels

Then start the all Ireland with 3 tiers, 12, 12, 8 - lower tier champs go to New York to play

Each tier has groups of 4
They play first games seeded by performance in league and provincial winners getting home games and seeded as top 4. League winner would also get home match and is seeded 5
Rd one - 1v4, 2v3,

R3 - elimination matches

Top 8 progress to open draw Q finals

Same for tier 2

Tier 3 has semis with top 2 in each group, then final

Winning lower tier guarantees higher tier the next season

I would love to see the championship group stages played with a bonus system and no draws

4 points for a win
3 points for a loss on penalties
2 points for losing in extra time
1 point for scoring 20 points in normal time
1 point for losing by 4 points or less

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1164 - 31/05/2024 05:24:41    2548502

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The hurling year seems to have a good flow. League, round robin championship and then knockout. Football could adopt a tiered provincial round robin format. 2 groups of 4 in both Leinster and Ulster. 1 group of 4 in both Connacht and Munster. 1 Ulster county and 3 Leinster counties can contest a shared tier 2. 2 Connacht counties including London and 2 Munster counties can contest a shared tier 2.
Only the top 2 from the six provincial championship groups and the Tailteann Cup winner from the previous year should qualify for the All-Ireland series. In the next year's provincial championship, the counties who missed out on the All-Ireland could be given two home games as a consolation reward. In a group of say 1. Dublin, 2. Meath, 3. Kildare and 4. Offaly, Kildare and Offaly would have two home games.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8053 - 31/05/2024 16:17:39    2548594

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Replying To tirawleybaron:  "The current system is backwards and until that is fixed the interest in it will be low.

Early season should be about every county getting a chance to position themselves into their appropriate level

Late season should be about fierce competition at your level.

The current season is all over the place

League have 4 levels but played first
Provincials are open to all and played in the middle
All Ireland is two levels and played last with a format designed to keep poor teams playing longer.

Any new format needs to build over the season and reward good performance

Start with two tiered provincials - A and B with B winner getting into A semi finals

Move onto leagues with two tiers - Div1 A&B and div 2A&B
Giving all counties a chance to improve by playing a wide range of opponents of different levels

Then start the all Ireland with 3 tiers, 12, 12, 8 - lower tier champs go to New York to play

Each tier has groups of 4
They play first games seeded by performance in league and provincial winners getting home games and seeded as top 4. League winner would also get home match and is seeded 5
Rd one - 1v4, 2v3,

R3 - elimination matches

Top 8 progress to open draw Q finals

Same for tier 2

Tier 3 has semis with top 2 in each group, then final

Winning lower tier guarantees higher tier the next season

I would love to see the championship group stages played with a bonus system and no draws

4 points for a win
3 points for a loss on penalties
2 points for losing in extra time
1 point for scoring 20 points in normal time
1 point for losing by 4 points or less"
I declare you have outdone all the inventors with this effort. I would award you somewhere between 1 and 4 points.

ORIELMAN85 (Monaghan) - Posts: 196 - 01/06/2024 03:14:49    2548634

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The hurling year seems to have a good flow. League, round robin championship and then knockout. Football could adopt a tiered provincial round robin format. 2 groups of 4 in both Leinster and Ulster. 1 group of 4 in both Connacht and Munster. 1 Ulster county and 3 Leinster counties can contest a shared tier 2. 2 Connacht counties including London and 2 Munster counties can contest a shared tier 2.
Only the top 2 from the six provincial championship groups and the Tailteann Cup winner from the previous year should qualify for the All-Ireland series. In the next year's provincial championship, the counties who missed out on the All-Ireland could be given two home games as a consolation reward. In a group of say 1. Dublin, 2. Meath, 3. Kildare and 4. Offaly, Kildare and Offaly would have two home games."
Another good bamboozler, but only runner-up to "Tirawley Baron". No Bonus Points awarded.

ORIELMAN85 (Monaghan) - Posts: 196 - 01/06/2024 03:20:27    2548635

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The Provincial Club Championships and All-Ireland Club Championships could conclude in January and February. The Allianz Football League, detached from championship, could start at the beginning of January with finals in mid March. This would allow players leeway to remain with their clubs and colleges for those competitions running in parallel to the league. The provincial football championships then from the end of March to mid May.
The All-Ireland then being 2 groups of 8 from the end of May. Whammo will disagree but the GAA will probably want the top 4 from each group in 4 Croke Park quarter-finals. The All-Ireland 16 should consist of 4 provincial winners, Tailteann winner and the top 11 performers from the previous championship. The Tailteann and a Tier 3 having 1 group of 8 each, with top 4 into semi-finals. All-Ireland footage final on the second Sunday of September.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8053 - 01/06/2024 09:26:39    2548657

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With rugby's URC now entering the KO stage, I am fantasising how a GAA variant might look.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2729 - 02/06/2024 14:51:49    2548877

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Replying To omahant:  "With rugby's URC now entering the KO stage, I am fantasising how a GAA variant might look."
The closest in a single group is a maximum of 12 teams over 11 rounds, 3rd to 6th in quarter-finals with the winners joining the top 2 in the semi-finals.
The closest in a 16 team championship is 2 groups of 8 over 7 rounds. The GAA might favour 4 quarter-finals in Croke Park. A variant is the two group winners direct to semi-finals. 3rd v 4th from the other group in preliminary quarter-finals, possibly 3rd placed teams with home advantage. Preliminary quarter-final winners joining the two 2nd placed teams in 2 Croke Park quarter-finals.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8053 - 02/06/2024 17:09:48    2548924

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Replying To omahant:  "With rugby's URC now entering the KO stage, I am fantasising how a GAA variant might look."
This is such a weird competition to hold in high regard.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4286 - 02/06/2024 18:41:21    2548970

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Replying To Whammo86:  "This is such a weird competition to hold in high regard."
They have a sensible format for what they require anyway. Avoiding clashes with international games as much as possible and allowing for 8 European weekends.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8053 - 02/06/2024 20:29:36    2549010

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The new football format is a total balls.I think last year because it was new and nobody really understood what it entailed it maintained some sort of momentum but now the realisation has hit players that it doesn't really matter how you perform for 50% of the competition, you still can make it to the last 8, the last 4 or possibly down to the final 2.
The GAA need to rethink this whole new Championship format sooner rather than later as the longer it lasts the more players and supporters they'll lose.

Blackcardnot (USA) - Posts: 26 - 02/06/2024 21:57:20    2549040

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Tomas O'Sé knows the solution. It is already applied in the Dublin championship. The top 2 only qualify for quarter-finals. The two Round 1 winners play each other in Round 2. It guarantees that at least one of the Round 3 games has something to play for. This is the minimum change that the current format requires.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8053 - 02/06/2024 22:54:51    2549048

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The reality it there are at least 4 teams in the senior championship who aren't up to it.

It it was 12 teams, open draw, 4 groups of three, top two from each into qfinals then every match would count .
You might even get an actual "group of death". A group with Dublin, Kerry and Galway anyone?

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1164 - 03/06/2024 07:44:45    2549071

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Tomas O'Sé knows the solution. It is already applied in the Dublin championship. The top 2 only qualify for quarter-finals. The two Round 1 winners play each other in Round 2. It guarantees that at least one of the Round 3 games has something to play for. This is the minimum change that the current format requires."
That has worked well enough in Dublin and probably brought a few clubs like Raheny to improve to stage where they are contenders. Previous system was a ludicrously meaningless weeding out process of 32 teams at one stage.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2859 - 03/06/2024 08:47:21    2549084

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Replying To tirawleybaron:  "The reality it there are at least 4 teams in the senior championship who aren't up to it.

It it was 12 teams, open draw, 4 groups of three, top two from each into qfinals then every match would count .
You might even get an actual "group of death". A group with Dublin, Kerry and Galway anyone?"
Of the 16 qualified teams at least 10/11 haven't got a snow ball's chance in hell of winning the All Ireland… they are only bunged in there to make up the numbers….

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 2173 - 03/06/2024 09:15:56    2549093

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Replying To tirawleybaron:  "The reality it there are at least 4 teams in the senior championship who aren't up to it.

It it was 12 teams, open draw, 4 groups of three, top two from each into qfinals then every match would count .
You might even get an actual "group of death". A group with Dublin, Kerry and Galway anyone?"
Open draws reward failure. When the league has a fair ranking of 1 to 32, it is the ideal seeding for balanced provincial draws.
All 16 teams are going into Round 3 with something to play for. It is exactly what the GAA want despite the criticism for lack of jeopardy. With all four preliminary quarter-finals to be screened on GAAGO and the government looking to make all quarter-finals free to air, the GAA might be very reluctant to let go of the current format.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8053 - 03/06/2024 10:03:00    2549111

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Replying To Blackcardnot:  "The new football format is a total balls.I think last year because it was new and nobody really understood what it entailed it maintained some sort of momentum but now the realisation has hit players that it doesn't really matter how you perform for 50% of the competition, you still can make it to the last 8, the last 4 or possibly down to the final 2.
The GAA need to rethink this whole new Championship format sooner rather than later as the longer it lasts the more players and supporters they'll lose."
How many players have been "lost" because of the new system?
Can you name any of them?

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1627 - 03/06/2024 11:10:38    2549128

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "Of the 16 qualified teams at least 10/11 haven't got a snow ball's chance in hell of winning the All Ireland… they are only bunged in there to make up the numbers…."
From that nonsense you obviously have no clue what sport is all about. Go chat to lads who play the game, IF, they would waste their time conversing with a space cadet.

ORIELMAN85 (Monaghan) - Posts: 196 - 03/06/2024 11:36:33    2549133

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