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Will Super Clubs Ruin The Gaa

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "Question.
Kerry divisional teams are not allowed compete in senior provisional and All Ireland club championships.
'Super clubs' such as Kilmacud Crokes must have a catchment area far far bigger than the Kerry divisional teams. Should clubs like this also be excluded from senior provisional and All Ireland club championships??"
Answer: NO

anotheralias (Galway) - Posts: 796 - 18/11/2023 11:38:01    2513608

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Replying To Viking66:  "No Divisional teams are allowed not just Kerry ones. Same in Colleges A, no combined schools are allowed in the AI series. Crokes are one club, built up over many years of hard work by the members. Fair play to them."
The resources, player wise and finances, mean it is not really fair competition that these 'Super clubs' are competing against clubs with far smaller resources. Some of these clubs have resources nearly equilivalt to counties and are not equilivant to the vast majority of GAA clubs.
None of this is to insult the players/ memberships of these clubs who have done nothing wrong and done a huge amount right, it's just by the lottery of hugely changed demographics in certain areas mean they have resources on a completly different level to most of their competitors.

People are saying nothing can change, of course there are options to change it if the GAA want to (OK, if there is a scarity of land in Dublin you would have to look outside the box at options like ground shares etc. if the GAA pushed through the formation of additional clubs).
Clubs having fifth teams (I'm guessing at the number of teams 'Super clubs' may have) and serving population catchment areas nearly equivalent to small counties is not a model I like the GAA to follow.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1196 - 18/11/2023 18:48:26    2513659

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Replying To TheUsername:  "When you look at what the county board have invested in Hollystown and Spawell - it gives an example of the problem that faces club in Dublin.

Hollystown was 15 mill plus and the cost to build four pitches and a clubhouse pavilion is 6.6 millio - 21 million in total.

Spawell 9 million and probably another 6.6 million to put in a clubhouse pavilion and four pitches if we take Hollystown as the lead.

Total cost is ball park: 37.2 million. Most other counties COE dont break £5mill.

Its impossible for a new club to get their own grounds, huge problem for the games here as the population continues to grow.

What else can club like Crokes or Ballyboden do - turn kids away at the door or try and accommodate them broadening their teams, the games after all are about participation."
I've heard about the Dublin County board are developing the Spawell and Hollystown facilities. Are these currently in development stage?
What is the plan for these?. Will they be used

Currently are Abbottstown or a university campus being used as a base for the Dublin Centre of Excellence?.

Are Spawell and Hollystown going used as Dublins COE when they are completed?.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1196 - 18/11/2023 20:20:32    2513664

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "I don't think (?) the new club I was talking about own their own facilities at the moment, it might not be easy for them to buy land, I would imagine a lot of people up there wouldn't be that keen to sell land on outskirts of built up areas as they may be thinking that in the future there is a chance the land could be sold for housing development in the future.

The numbers you hear quoted for Kilmacud Crokes (usually the stereotypical 'Super Club' you think of) are ridicilious, you hear KCs catchment is bigger than some counties (if someone has comparsion figures for catchment between Leitrim and KC it would be interesting).

Does a stage ever come where a club gets too big?.
I think clubs sometimes get too big which distorts competition and becomes a barrier to getting people into the game.

I don't know the specifics of the various large clubs in Dublin.
Some of them may have one set of pitches, some of them may have more.
As has been said maybe in a lot of Dublin it's nearly impossible to see a new club being able to spring up organically, in this case would it be wrong if county board/ central GAA stepped in to try to split clubs ?(as happened in Tralee in 1920's when 1 club was split into 3).

If a club has more than one ground this could simplify splitting a club (do many clubs have in Dublin have 2 grounds?, a few clubs in Meath do).
Could school pitches in areas be used by clubs who don't own their own ground?
Previously I mentioned 2 clubs in Kildare (Clogherinkoe and Broadford) came together years ago to buy land for facilities, could 2 clubs in Dublin share facilities?. (OK, the fact that in the Kildare example the 2 neighboring clubs concentrated on different codes helped but just used the example to show sharing a ground is possible)."
All this talk of "Super Clubs" is gas, it's like they've popped up out of nowhere and haven't always been around. Every county has their own version of Super Clubs where they have big numbers compared to the rest. A lot tend to be in big towns or the outskirts of the cities. Would you recommend splitting those in 2 as well?

Why go about splitting clubs to bring them down to other clubs levels. Why not join the weaker clubs who struggle to compete and bring them up a level

The super clubs I know of I can guarantee you all their members are very proud to represent their club no matter what grade they play.

This all boils down to jealousy and begrudgery at the end of the day. Similar to the attitude everyone outside the capital has towards the dubs.

Low2Joe (Wexford) - Posts: 47 - 18/11/2023 21:44:03    2513676

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "The resources, player wise and finances, mean it is not really fair competition that these 'Super clubs' are competing against clubs with far smaller resources. Some of these clubs have resources nearly equilivalt to counties and are not equilivant to the vast majority of GAA clubs.
None of this is to insult the players/ memberships of these clubs who have done nothing wrong and done a huge amount right, it's just by the lottery of hugely changed demographics in certain areas mean they have resources on a completly different level to most of their competitors.

People are saying nothing can change, of course there are options to change it if the GAA want to (OK, if there is a scarity of land in Dublin you would have to look outside the box at options like ground shares etc. if the GAA pushed through the formation of additional clubs).
Clubs having fifth teams (I'm guessing at the number of teams 'Super clubs' may have) and serving population catchment areas nearly equivalent to small counties is not a model I like the GAA to follow."
The GAA is following that model at County level!
1 County e.g has 40vtimes the population of another!

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1143 - 18/11/2023 23:45:08    2513688

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Crokes are in an area were wearing a GAA shirt is a very rare sight. Set in a great swathe of South Dublin in one of the more affluent areas they hover up players from a heartland that playing GAA is virtually a foreign gane, kudis to them for playing all codes. And in terms of splitting clubs up thats not on. St Brigids in Dublin have always been aggrived that in the newer suburbs of Castleknock a new club was created. Castleknock was founded in the 90s and nurtured by Dublin GAA and is a force to be reckoned with and argueably on there way to being a Super club. In Dublin too it is also about schools and their locations. Na Fianna have about 10 large schools on or near the club house, Whitehall has three. And schools are the key in Dublin. Maybe the Kerry club examples should be used in other counties at both Club and Inter County level? Would work in Hurling and for football might level pitch somewhat. But that is a different question.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4877 - 19/11/2023 09:19:21    2513699

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Replying To arock:  "Crokes are in an area were wearing a GAA shirt is a very rare sight. Set in a great swathe of South Dublin in one of the more affluent areas they hover up players from a heartland that playing GAA is virtually a foreign gane, kudis to them for playing all codes. And in terms of splitting clubs up thats not on. St Brigids in Dublin have always been aggrived that in the newer suburbs of Castleknock a new club was created. Castleknock was founded in the 90s and nurtured by Dublin GAA and is a force to be reckoned with and argueably on there way to being a Super club. In Dublin too it is also about schools and their locations. Na Fianna have about 10 large schools on or near the club house, Whitehall has three. And schools are the key in Dublin. Maybe the Kerry club examples should be used in other counties at both Club and Inter County level? Would work in Hurling and for football might level pitch somewhat. But that is a different question."
By Carlow's standards Eire Og is a super club and a very successful one even though it is one of a hand made up of a few clubs that in turn makes Carlow the second smallest county in the country. And so if in terms of splitting clubs up is not on in the nation's capital it certainly is not on in the smaller and weaker counties in the rest of the country. Dublin has no excuse not to continue winning Leinster titles, national football league and all Ireland senior football titles as they so wish.

In 1999 Carlow's Eire Og played and won their last Leinster senior football final against Kilmacud Crokes, the game went to two replays, unheard of as Kilmacud were fancied favorites if for no other reason than the fact that they had in their starting 15 at least four of the Dublin senior football team as well as six senior players from six different counties, but Eire Og was very fortunate and blessed that a crop of young lads that once in a life time came together to form this very special Eire Of senior football team.

Club size is more important today than ever before, county size is very relevant, county population is critical, super facilities is very important, the availability of strong finance is very important, aspiration within the county is more important now than ever before so a county can be competitive and challenge the best.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2878 - 19/11/2023 14:41:11    2513730

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Most of Kilmacud Crokes catchment area is rugby heartland with little interest in GAA. Crokes are an oasis of hurling & football in that part of Dublin, fair play to them.

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4620 - 19/11/2023 15:32:57    2513735

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Tomsmith here
Super clubs by name and by status are and will be the ruination of the GAA.
In Cavan we are lucky that we dont have super a super Club, but over in Monaghan it appears that a particular club is of interest to County players.
But I feel that the demise of smaller Clubs in say Dublin will be imminent if the Gaa dont tackle this issue.
When you see th number of transfers into these big / super clubs you just wonder if these transfers are , for the love of the game in that area r factors be the pulling power like money, romance or the promise of a job.
I dont know

tomsmith (Cavan) - Posts: 3753 - 19/11/2023 16:46:17    2513742

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Replying To Low2Joe:  "All this talk of "Super Clubs" is gas, it's like they've popped up out of nowhere and haven't always been around. Every county has their own version of Super Clubs where they have big numbers compared to the rest. A lot tend to be in big towns or the outskirts of the cities. Would you recommend splitting those in 2 as well?

Why go about splitting clubs to bring them down to other clubs levels. Why not join the weaker clubs who struggle to compete and bring them up a level

The super clubs I know of I can guarantee you all their members are very proud to represent their club no matter what grade they play.

This all boils down to jealousy and begrudgery at the end of the day. Similar to the attitude everyone outside the capital has towards the dubs."
Your right, some clubs have always had bigger picks than others. But in the last say last 40 years Ireland has become far more urbanised, the differences between playing numbers at some clubs is much greater than before.

To me the ethos of the GAA is about clubs that are close to their communities, obviously clubs with huge catchment areas clubs won't be as close to their communities. For me it isn't just about clubs with huge catchment areas making county championships unfair as much as it is impacting what the GAA is about.

To adapt to changing demographics some rural clubs actually have amalgamated. Seeing as many towns/ suburban areas have expanded hugely as part of urbanisation to me it is logical that more clubs be formed in these areas to cater for this reality.

I don't know the specifics of most counties so wouldn't be in a position to give a big list of existing club catchment areas which need new clubs.

In the case of Dublin the catchment areas/ player pool/ financial resources of some clubs just seem mad when you hear people talking about them.
The Dublin situation in the case of 'Super clubs' often seems a little bit different to me. Many areas which have traditionally not been GAA areas seem to have seen an increase in participation rates/ interest in large part because of the funding model put in place at the start of the century where the central GAA and government gave Dublin GAA funding way above their playing numbers for games development.
Dublin GAA and clubs seem to have used the hand outs given to them as part of this funding model well (also GAA people migrating to live in these areas I would guess have also played a part).

Clubs in Dublin have benefited from the funding model for Dublin GAA put in place by national GAA, because of this I wouldn't really find it a strong argument that it is unacceptable for additional clubs to be put in place in the catchment areas of 'Super clubs' there.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1196 - 20/11/2023 18:38:26    2513915

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Replying To arock:  "Crokes are in an area were wearing a GAA shirt is a very rare sight. Set in a great swathe of South Dublin in one of the more affluent areas they hover up players from a heartland that playing GAA is virtually a foreign gane, kudis to them for playing all codes. And in terms of splitting clubs up thats not on. St Brigids in Dublin have always been aggrived that in the newer suburbs of Castleknock a new club was created. Castleknock was founded in the 90s and nurtured by Dublin GAA and is a force to be reckoned with and argueably on there way to being a Super club. In Dublin too it is also about schools and their locations. Na Fianna have about 10 large schools on or near the club house, Whitehall has three. And schools are the key in Dublin. Maybe the Kerry club examples should be used in other counties at both Club and Inter County level? Would work in Hurling and for football might level pitch somewhat. But that is a different question."
From what you hear GAA clubs in South Dublin are getting big numbers nowjust saying . A friend I worked with was telling me he brought his daughter to the Cuala academy and said because of the huge numbers she just found it very daunting and only went there a few times.
By the way this isn't a criticism of the people at the club, just an observation that the club was getting big numbers.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1196 - 21/11/2023 08:13:10    2513960

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Great to see the pride of the parish on display as Kilmacud Crokes won another Leinster club championship. Great for their 4,800 members.
Their big summer signing from last year is really doing the business now.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1196 - 03/12/2023 12:50:57    2515323

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Is it impossible now for a small rural club to win a senior all Ireland?

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11186 - 03/12/2023 13:50:10    2515332

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "Great to see the pride of the parish on display as Kilmacud Crokes won another Leinster club championship. Great for their 4,800 members.
Their big summer signing from last year is really doing the business now."
I'd say having 4800 members brings its own problems too. Who should Walsh have transferred to? I assume he's living way out South Dublin. He could've transferred to St Olafs, Ballinteer, Foxrock, St. Francis Gales or Cuala but I suppose if I was a footballer the Crokes would appeal to me most if I was moving to that area. Quite possibly he's living just around the corner from one of their pitches in any case.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 10245 - 03/12/2023 14:00:02    2515334

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Replying To yew_tree:  "Is it impossible now for a small rural club to win a senior all Ireland?"
No. They've won 6 of the last 10 titles.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6017 - 03/12/2023 15:09:42    2515342

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Replying To yew_tree:  "Is it impossible now for a small rural club to win a senior all Ireland?"
There's very few rural clubs that can compete, the vast majority have no chance of winning a county not to mind an all ireland at senior club level .
Very organised small clubs that have tradition and a number of astute individuals at the helm are the only ones with a chance - ie Scotstown in Monaghan , St Brigid's & Corofin in Connaught , Castlehaven & St Thomas hurlers be other examples but in the main big urban clubs in Munster like Ballygunner, Na Piarsaigh in hurling Dr Crokes , Nemo Rangers in football are far more likely to be involved likewise Kilmacud , Ballyboden , Naas , Portlaoise , Cuala , Na Fianna etc in Leinster

OpenStand (Limerick) - Posts: 610 - 03/12/2023 17:38:44    2515363

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Replying To OpenStand:  "There's very few rural clubs that can compete, the vast majority have no chance of winning a county not to mind an all ireland at senior club level .
Very organised small clubs that have tradition and a number of astute individuals at the helm are the only ones with a chance - ie Scotstown in Monaghan , St Brigid's & Corofin in Connaught , Castlehaven & St Thomas hurlers be other examples but in the main big urban clubs in Munster like Ballygunner, Na Piarsaigh in hurling Dr Crokes , Nemo Rangers in football are far more likely to be involved likewise Kilmacud , Ballyboden , Naas , Portlaoise , Cuala , Na Fianna etc in Leinster"
Ballyhale, all the main Ulster teams, Kilmallock and Ballygunner aren't urban teams. Neither are Kilcoo, Glen, etc in football.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 10245 - 03/12/2023 19:14:12    2515378

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Replying To Viking66:  "Ballyhale, all the main Ulster teams, Kilmallock and Ballygunner aren't urban teams. Neither are Kilcoo, Glen, etc in football."
Are Ballygunner not a Waterford city club? Or at the very least their catchment area takes in part of the city?

iluvspuds (Longford) - Posts: 160 - 05/12/2023 16:12:41    2515630

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Replying To iluvspuds:  "Are Ballygunner not a Waterford city club? Or at the very least their catchment area takes in part of the city?"
It takes in some new build as the city grows out towards them, but they were successful enough when most of their catchment area was surrounded by fields as was their grounds.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 10245 - 05/12/2023 20:41:14    2515660

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Replying To Viking66:  "Ballyhale, all the main Ulster teams, Kilmallock and Ballygunner aren't urban teams. Neither are Kilcoo, Glen, etc in football."
Kilmallock wouldn't be a club to include,be a long time before you will see a county title out there, unfortunately there is a couple of super clubs slowly taking over,they are class as city clubs but are just outside the inner city area.

cityman73 (Limerick) - Posts: 762 - 07/12/2023 19:38:40    2515918

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