National Forum

Can Gaelic Football (Handball?) Be Saved?

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Replying To Whammo86:  "The Super 8s yes. It did still have problems around the qualifying system and it wasn't really the top 8 teams playing in the Super 8s. It had the problem too of groups of 4 not being that exciting in Gaelic football because there aren't that many draws so it's quite common for a group with 2 through and 2 out to be decided after 2 rounds of fixtures.

The current round robin the top teams are kept apart as much as they were in the old qualifier system."
For me the number of mis match games is a definite problem but kind of a separate issue.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1416 - 07/11/2023 12:47:38    2511911

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Replying To togoutlads:  "A rule applies to both teams, both sets of players! Players won't 'risk' kicking the ball under what I'm suggesting, rather they'll HAVE TO kick the ball after 1, 2 or max 3 hand passes. Force them with a rule - why not? Plenty of options to move the ball on, when it's at least every fourth pass you're putting the boot to. Risk begets reward too! It would open up the game more when neither team has the option to retain long strung-out periods of possession based on 4, 5, 6 or even dozens of hand passes in a row. That muck needs to go and the rule book is one sure fired way to do so. Why not try the max 3 hand pass rule at a given juvenile or junior level and see what happens. Football starts to break out!"
What happens if the player gets stuck in the corner? Just a big lump kick pass into the square.. really skillfull …

Good coaches will force more players back so opposition can't score.

Forget about the 80s it ain't coming back.

Enjoy the tactical battle

veterngaa (Monaghan) - Posts: 998 - 07/11/2023 12:54:47    2511913

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "For me the number of mis match games is a definite problem but kind of a separate issue."
I don't think so because I think there's been so many good games between the likes of Mayo, Kerry and Dublin over the last 12 years that it shows that when the game is played right it's way better than anything that's come before. Some of those matches are way way way better in terms of excitement, quality, intensity than anything that came before 2010.

The worst of football is absolutely terrible, can't argue with that but my thing is that some of the worst football is when teams start kicking passing in front of the blanket defence. That way that Dublin played against the likes Donegal from 2016 on was terrible and it wasn't due to hand passing.

We'd see way fewer goals if there were limits on hand passing.

Some of the lack of intensity and challenging for the ball is very boring fair but I disagree with most of the solutions. The hand passing is a symptom rather than the root issue.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4615 - 07/11/2023 13:29:41    2511924

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "Outside of this forum I have yet to hear anyone who actually thinks the trend towards possession based football and the decline of kicking in Gaelic football is a good thing.
This website aside in all the times I heard people bemoan how the modern approach to how football is ruining the game I have never heard someone argue back saying they like the modern keep possession/ massed defense approach to the game.

In terms of these trends the 2 managers who really moved Gaelic football in this direction was Mickey Heart and Jim McGuinness.
In particular Jim McGuinness's Donegal took it to new levels, the 2011 semi final really was a horrible day in the evolution of Gaelic football.

The GAA have tweeked football rules since but have never looked like they will bring in a rule or rules that might actually make possession type football a non effective way to play the game.

I think a big problem is because of the success of Harte and McGuinness in winning All Irelands Ulster football people associate these tactics with Ulster success and this makes them opposed to anything that will actually bring about change."
You're looking for rule(s) to reward the team with less possession, who give the ball away to the opposition with regularity. Laughable too, when you think about it.

If Dublin had won that 'horrible' 2011 semi by 3-17 to 0-9, would it have been a better day for the 'evolution of football'? Donegal won the 2012 title, and lost the 2014 final, playing fairly exhilarating stuff at times in that era imo.

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 4626 - 07/11/2023 13:30:23    2511925

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Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "You're looking for rule(s) to reward the team with less possession, who give the ball away to the opposition with regularity. Laughable too, when you think about it.

If Dublin had won that 'horrible' 2011 semi by 3-17 to 0-9, would it have been a better day for the 'evolution of football'? Donegal won the 2012 title, and lost the 2014 final, playing fairly exhilarating stuff at times in that era imo."
If I was from one of the stronger or elite counties that is in with a sporting chance of winning serious silverware on a yearly basis I wouldn't want to change away from the current playing system either.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 3385 - 07/11/2023 15:34:40    2511958

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Replying To supersub15:  "If I was from one of the stronger or elite counties that is in with a sporting chance of winning serious silverware on a yearly basis I wouldn't want to change away from the current playing system either."
Are you insinuating that there is a 'playing system' for Gaelic Football out there, that would introduce perfect parity to all 32+ football counties/regions playing in the 2024 NFL, if implemented?

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 4626 - 07/11/2023 16:29:33    2511969

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Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "You're looking for rule(s) to reward the team with less possession, who give the ball away to the opposition with regularity. Laughable too, when you think about it.

If Dublin had won that 'horrible' 2011 semi by 3-17 to 0-9, would it have been a better day for the 'evolution of football'? Donegal won the 2012 title, and lost the 2014 final, playing fairly exhilarating stuff at times in that era imo."
I think it's laughable hearing people deluding themselves that we are seeing tactical masterclasses from managers when all they are actually doing is keeping most of their players back.
The skill level is making and receiving a uncontested hand pass is minimal.
Teams should be rewarded for executing quick/ accurate movement of the ball.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1416 - 07/11/2023 18:45:38    2511997

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Replying To Whammo86:  "The Super 8s yes. It did still have problems around the qualifying system and it wasn't really the top 8 teams playing in the Super 8s. It had the problem too of groups of 4 not being that exciting in Gaelic football because there aren't that many draws so it's quite common for a group with 2 through and 2 out to be decided after 2 rounds of fixtures.

The current round robin the top teams are kept apart as much as they were in the old qualifier system."
So I conclude that you dont see anything wrong with the game, but the system is at fault. The thread is about the game not the system.

ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 710 - 07/11/2023 18:51:45    2511999

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "Outside of this forum I have yet to hear anyone who actually thinks the trend towards possession based football and the decline of kicking in Gaelic football is a good thing.
This website aside in all the times I heard people bemoan how the modern approach to how football is ruining the game I have never heard someone argue back saying they like the modern keep possession/ massed defense approach to the game.

In terms of these trends the 2 managers who really moved Gaelic football in this direction was Mickey Heart and Jim McGuinness.
In particular Jim McGuinness's Donegal took it to new levels, the 2011 semi final really was a horrible day in the evolution of Gaelic football.

The GAA have tweeked football rules since but have never looked like they will bring in a rule or rules that might actually make possession type football a non effective way to play the game.

I think a big problem is because of the success of Harte and McGuinness in winning All Irelands Ulster football people associate these tactics with Ulster success and this makes them opposed to anything that will actually bring about change."
Would my "65/45 rule" improve the way the game is played? - think of the two 45s & two 65s as dividing the middle third of the pitch into three distinct zones, with the attacking team required to kick pass over "ONE OF THE THREE" zones each time it moves the ball forward under a liberal "shot clock" limit.

Given that the kick is imposed, the attacking team would need to vary its kicks, sometimes over the 1st, 2nd (between 65s) or 3rd zones and would need players spread out to finesse.

How would a defensive-minded team try to strangle the attacking team's options?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3380 - 07/11/2023 19:20:26    2512002

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Replying To veterngaa:  "What happens if the player gets stuck in the corner? Just a big lump kick pass into the square.. really skillfull …

Good coaches will force more players back so opposition can't score.

Forget about the 80s it ain't coming back.

Enjoy the tactical battle"
Senior Kerry final results in the 2000's (before Donegal 'ruined' football)

2009 South Kerry 1-08 Dr Crokes 0-10
2008 Mid Kerry 1-07 Kerins O'Rahilly's 0-09
2007 Feale Ranger 1-04 South Kerry 0-06
2006 South Kerry 0-12 Dr Crokes 1-08
2005 South Kerry 0-12 Dr Crokes 1-06
2004 South Kerry 1-13 Laune Rangers 2-05
2003 An Ghaeltacht 0-12 Laune Rangers 2-04
2002 Kerins O'Rahilly's 0-14 Kilcummin 0-05
2001 An Ghaeltacht 1-13 Austin Stacks 0-10
2000 Dr Crokes 1-04 An Ghaeltacht 0-06
1999 East Kerry 0-10 Feale Rangers 1-06

They weren't exactly shooting the lights out.
Evidence possibly also that high scoring may not be synonymous with quality football.

Eddie the Exile (Monaghan) - Posts: 1294 - 07/11/2023 20:16:00    2512009

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Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "Are you insinuating that there is a 'playing system' for Gaelic Football out there, that would introduce perfect parity to all 32+ football counties/regions playing in the 2024 NFL, if implemented?"
No, No, not at all, even I know that there is no such thing as perfect parity, however there is a system out there all it needs is the good will to go out there find an acceptable simple ready to use formulae put it together and see what happens over a 2 or 3 years time scale.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 3385 - 08/11/2023 10:12:08    2512036

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Replying To omahant:  "Would my "65/45 rule" improve the way the game is played? - think of the two 45s & two 65s as dividing the middle third of the pitch into three distinct zones, with the attacking team required to kick pass over "ONE OF THE THREE" zones each time it moves the ball forward under a liberal "shot clock" limit.

Given that the kick is imposed, the attacking team would need to vary its kicks, sometimes over the 1st, 2nd (between 65s) or 3rd zones and would need players spread out to finesse.

How would a defensive-minded team try to strangle the attacking team's options?"
To be honest I'm trying to visualise would it be easy for the ref to keep track of. Its kind of 1 I'd need to see in action.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1416 - 08/11/2023 12:18:54    2512070

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Replying To ZUL10:  "So I conclude that you dont see anything wrong with the game, but the system is at fault. The thread is about the game not the system."
Yeah I know but the game and rules are less broken than the perception at times.

I also think Croke Park is a bad venue for football and that hurts the intensity of the game and contributes to the lack of excitement in some big matches.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4615 - 08/11/2023 13:04:23    2512082

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I agree and some of the suggestions are close to crazy. A lot of new rules in the last 10 years with some of them extremely for a Ref to keep up with them all. If we introduced a few more rules we would need at least 2 Refs!. Any new rule needs to replace some of the more silly ones. Three guys getting around a player pulling and dragging him and Ref gives a free against the player in the middle being fouled. The black/ yellow cards need clarification and the new rule on a player being thru for a goal needs more clarification. The better teams distribute their fouls to avoid anyone being sent off. Pulling and dragging is allowed as long as you do not stretch a jersey! You need less rules but ones that deals with pulling and dragging and a new rule to deal with back passing- not one based on number of passes. In seven-aside the back bass rule was introduced many years ago to stop exactly what is going on now.

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2342 - 08/11/2023 13:30:34    2512091

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I don't think so because I think there's been so many good games between the likes of Mayo, Kerry and Dublin over the last 12 years that it shows that when the game is played right it's way better than anything that's come before. Some of those matches are way way way better in terms of excitement, quality, intensity than anything that came before 2010.

The worst of football is absolutely terrible, can't argue with that but my thing is that some of the worst football is when teams start kicking passing in front of the blanket defence. That way that Dublin played against the likes Donegal from 2016 on was terrible and it wasn't due to hand passing.

We'd see way fewer goals if there were limits on hand passing.

Some of the lack of intensity and challenging for the ball is very boring fair but I disagree with most of the solutions. The hand passing is a symptom rather than the root issue."
The preparation of Gaelic footballers is a completely different level to what was the case a generation ago.
For example point taking from play is well ahead what we used to see because of the extra preparation.
Yes players are better at doing some things than before, they would want to be considering how much time is spent on preparation compared to times past.

You talk of recent games between the top teams, there is more games in championship now than back in the good old days so we get more games between the top teams which also allows us to pick out more games between them.

For me boring uncontested handpassing is is not how Gaelic football was ever supposed to be played, and even in the best of games of recent years if we went back and looked at them (rather than just focusing on the best parts of the game) you would probably find more incidences of uncontested handpassing moves which get forgotten about as your main memories will be the high lights of the games.

In fairness your right, kick passing to completely unmarked players ( with absolutely no contest for the ball) in front of the blanket defence is also terrible, no better than uncontested handpassing.

They ills negative aspects of modern Gaelic football really comes down to blanket defence tactics which leave little room for teams to play in a purposeful manner (what I mean by this is when many modern day teams have the ball the main aim now is to hold on to the ball rather than having any urgency in getting at the opposition).

And your also right, hand passing has its place in the game, the key is to try to put in place rules which will have a knock-on effect of reducing the blanket defense in front of the ball and give the best players more space to play.
Without a blanket defense in front of the ball there will be more kicking in the game but there would still be handpassing.

When I think of modern day blanket defense tactics I often think of it as allowing bad defenders to be bailed out by a number game.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1416 - 08/11/2023 15:05:09    2512119

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "To be honest I'm trying to visualise would it be easy for the ref to keep track of. Its kind of 1 I'd need to see in action."
I think the relatively new "50/22 rule" in rugby union is quite effective, although rarely played.

I don't think my "65/45 rule" would be difficult to ref - team between the 65s either receives a kick pass from behind their own 45 or delivers one beyond the attacking 45 instead (ball flying over midfield is just play on).

Question though - would it break the blanket defence as the team would need to kick further down field - or would they just concede the free in the opposing half and again just absorb/strangle the attack?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3380 - 08/11/2023 16:17:04    2512142

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "The preparation of Gaelic footballers is a completely different level to what was the case a generation ago.
For example point taking from play is well ahead what we used to see because of the extra preparation.
Yes players are better at doing some things than before, they would want to be considering how much time is spent on preparation compared to times past.

You talk of recent games between the top teams, there is more games in championship now than back in the good old days so we get more games between the top teams which also allows us to pick out more games between them.

For me boring uncontested handpassing is is not how Gaelic football was ever supposed to be played, and even in the best of games of recent years if we went back and looked at them (rather than just focusing on the best parts of the game) you would probably find more incidences of uncontested handpassing moves which get forgotten about as your main memories will be the high lights of the games.

In fairness your right, kick passing to completely unmarked players ( with absolutely no contest for the ball) in front of the blanket defence is also terrible, no better than uncontested handpassing.

They ills negative aspects of modern Gaelic football really comes down to blanket defence tactics which leave little room for teams to play in a purposeful manner (what I mean by this is when many modern day teams have the ball the main aim now is to hold on to the ball rather than having any urgency in getting at the opposition).

And your also right, hand passing has its place in the game, the key is to try to put in place rules which will have a knock-on effect of reducing the blanket defense in front of the ball and give the best players more space to play.
Without a blanket defense in front of the ball there will be more kicking in the game but there would still be handpassing.

When I think of modern day blanket defense tactics I often think of it as allowing bad defenders to be bailed out by a number game."
I do agree with pretty much all of this post for what it's worth.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4615 - 08/11/2023 19:52:21    2512168

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Replying To veterngaa:  "What happens if the player gets stuck in the corner? Just a big lump kick pass into the square.. really skillfull …

Good coaches will force more players back so opposition can't score.

Forget about the 80s it ain't coming back.

Enjoy the tactical battle"
'What happens if a player gets stuck in the corner?' - is that honestly the best counter argument you can come up with? For goodness sakes, we want to find a way to eliminate the, as things stand, potentially limitless strings of hand passes. Hand passes that go forwards, backwards and laterally. Hand passes that when in endless succession allow for monotonous, predictable patterns of play that are ultimately off putting to both players and spectators alike. So how about we put the foot back into football? The clue is in the name. Cap hand passes at 3 in succession in some internal games just to trial it and see what starts to happen - it works, I've seen it. The foot pass comes into action much more and no it won't be a 'return to the 80s' with lads endlessly 'lumping it' away. Most players with any reasonable skill set and further work in this area get more accurate and quicker at foot passing, and the ball transitions to attack far, far quicker. 3x to 5x faster than carrying and hand passing the ball.

togoutlads (Galway) - Posts: 1124 - 08/11/2023 21:37:45    2512173

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After watching crossmaglen/trillick,the Gaa have huge problems.they have to do something and very fast..I'm a Gaa man but really can't see myself watching much more of this..they are talking of reducing the number of counties in hurling league,looking at the hand pass and puck outs,yet hurling has been great to watch in last few years..cross didn't score in 2nd half and last score was on 40 minutes,from a club who always played good football..I've mentioned before,I'd do away with back pass to goalkeeper and once a team is inside opposition half,have to play forward only..it might be no harm to trial 13 aside,create more room and it just might stop all the defensive s..te we are seeing..

CTGAA10 (Limerick) - Posts: 2663 - 11/11/2023 21:27:45    2512475

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "The preparation of Gaelic footballers is a completely different level to what was the case a generation ago.
For example point taking from play is well ahead what we used to see because of the extra preparation.
Yes players are better at doing some things than before, they would want to be considering how much time is spent on preparation compared to times past.

You talk of recent games between the top teams, there is more games in championship now than back in the good old days so we get more games between the top teams which also allows us to pick out more games between them.

For me boring uncontested handpassing is is not how Gaelic football was ever supposed to be played, and even in the best of games of recent years if we went back and looked at them (rather than just focusing on the best parts of the game) you would probably find more incidences of uncontested handpassing moves which get forgotten about as your main memories will be the high lights of the games.

In fairness your right, kick passing to completely unmarked players ( with absolutely no contest for the ball) in front of the blanket defence is also terrible, no better than uncontested handpassing.

They ills negative aspects of modern Gaelic football really comes down to blanket defence tactics which leave little room for teams to play in a purposeful manner (what I mean by this is when many modern day teams have the ball the main aim now is to hold on to the ball rather than having any urgency in getting at the opposition).

And your also right, hand passing has its place in the game, the key is to try to put in place rules which will have a knock-on effect of reducing the blanket defense in front of the ball and give the best players more space to play.
Without a blanket defense in front of the ball there will be more kicking in the game but there would still be handpassing.

When I think of modern day blanket defense tactics I often think of it as allowing bad defenders to be bailed out by a number game."
The most relevant post to date on this topic.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 3385 - 12/11/2023 11:05:32    2512508

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