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Can Gaelic Football (Handball?) Be Saved?

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I really do just think that the game is very good when played by 2 good teams. When it's not or a team is trying to be ultra-defensive to keep things tight then it can be pig ugly. A lot of sports are like that though."
Possibly true but how often is that? The ratio of good to not so good is the issue. It seems so many variables have to align to get a good game.

ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 710 - 05/11/2023 10:39:27    2511540

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Can Gaelic Football (Handball?) Be Saved? - - - Answer. No it cant be saved, instead.

Gaelic football has to be reinvented asap in all things applicable to the game.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 3385 - 05/11/2023 11:08:03    2511545

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "Usually, but we've also seen games where two good teams are so focussed on trying to nullify each other's strengths, that the game turns into a cagey risk-averse contest.
It's very much down to the mindset and strategy of the management teams."
How right you are. Very well said.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6196 - 05/11/2023 12:00:04    2511552

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Replying To togoutlads:  "Do I want to see kick passes? Emphatically, yes! It's called football for goodness sakes. Do they have to be 'big, lumped in' ones? I don't believe so. I think the kick passing skill set will be worked on more and more if there's curtailment of hand passing. And if these kick passes don't always come off well guess what, there's turnovers and immediate counterattack opportunities. It could make for livelier, more open games and should be trialled."
But why would you risk kicking the ball to allow a counter attack.. players play to win.. not to give you a good time.

veterngaa (Monaghan) - Posts: 998 - 05/11/2023 12:20:54    2511559

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Replying To KillingFields:  "In the 40s were we very good or were we a ok side helped by fact we were impacted by WW2 far less than any of the opposition??

IRFU performed well from after the 1999 world cup as the loss to argentina and having to qualify for the 03 world cup forced irfu to change their entire approach to pro rugby..."
IRFU performed well? Really?

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6196 - 05/11/2023 12:29:03    2511561

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Replying To veterngaa:  "It will result in big lumped in kick passes.. back to the glory days of 80s…. Is that what you want to see? Sport is about winning ultimately. Coaches will find ways to exploit it. It even promotes defensive systems.. if I was a coach against your so called 3 passes… I would drop every player back… let your team come with the ball… and just wait… press hard on the 3rd passed to player knowing he has to kick.,l so he just kicks aimlessly in on top of my 3 sweepers.. easy"
Nothing wrong with the kicking aspect of games from the 1980's.
You had big passes kicked at times which led to good fielding/ contests for the ball and you had kick passes kicked so fast players could run out for the ball in front of their marker. Ya, there was bad kicking also but this often let to the opposition getting the ball so in a way contributed to the up and down the field nature of the games back then which engaged the crowd.

This kicking back then was a positive aspect compared to the monotonous lateral handpassing we see now.

As said before highlights of modern matches just showing the best scores from games are not giving a true reflection of what these games are actually like. Your getting to see good scores but not seeing the boring sideways passing that goes on for much of the game during which the crowd are silent/ not engaged and often bored.

Hurling has improved out of all recognition since the 1980's due to the improved preparation.

If we can get quick movement of the ball forward/ space for players to play allied with modern high levels of preparation of modern players the game would improve hugely from what we have now.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1416 - 05/11/2023 12:44:33    2511563

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "Usually, but we've also seen games where two good teams are so focussed on trying to nullify each other's strengths, that the game turns into a cagey risk-averse contest.
It's very much down to the mindset and strategy of the management teams."
Yeah I don't disagree but also I don't feel like the issue is with the rules. It's bad managers, bad setups and sometimes teams taking the easy approach to games. It's pretty clear at this stage that a very conservative approach isn't good enough to win the All Ireland but some teams still attempt it. It is what it is and if there were new rules brought in I'm sure there be plenty looking for new cheap tricks. I'd also worry that some of the hand passing restrictions would actually help very conservative teams.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4615 - 05/11/2023 14:14:49    2511569

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "Usually, but we've also seen games where two good teams are so focussed on trying to nullify each other's strengths, that the game turns into a cagey risk-averse contest.
It's very much down to the mindset and strategy of the management teams."
Inclined to agree with Whammo86, it's the strategies imposed by managers that causes the problems not the playing rules. I'm not sure it's possible to legislate negativity out of the game by introducing a plethora of new playing rules.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 1109 - 05/11/2023 15:20:43    2511578

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Replying To veterngaa:  "But why would you risk kicking the ball to allow a counter attack.. players play to win.. not to give you a good time."
A rule applies to both teams, both sets of players! Players won't 'risk' kicking the ball under what I'm suggesting, rather they'll HAVE TO kick the ball after 1, 2 or max 3 hand passes. Force them with a rule - why not? Plenty of options to move the ball on, when it's at least every fourth pass you're putting the boot to. Risk begets reward too! It would open up the game more when neither team has the option to retain long strung-out periods of possession based on 4, 5, 6 or even dozens of hand passes in a row. That muck needs to go and the rule book is one sure fired way to do so. Why not try the max 3 hand pass rule at a given juvenile or junior level and see what happens. Football starts to break out!

togoutlads (Galway) - Posts: 1124 - 05/11/2023 21:33:30    2511644

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Replying To supersub15:  "Can Gaelic Football (Handball?) Be Saved? - - - Answer. No it cant be saved, instead.

Gaelic football has to be reinvented asap in all things applicable to the game."
Gaelic football is well past the point where it could have been saved. Look at the Mayo final for an example of where it is now. It's really an awful game now.

crafty (Galway) - Posts: 270 - 05/11/2023 21:36:08    2511645

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Replying To ZUL10:  "Possibly true but how often is that? The ratio of good to not so good is the issue. It seems so many variables have to align to get a good game."
That's because our championship in football divides the field into 4 so we don't get enough games between the really top teams.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4615 - 06/11/2023 05:45:44    2511664

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Replying To crafty:  "Gaelic football is well past the point where it could have been saved. Look at the Mayo final for an example of where it is now. It's really an awful game now."
The Mayo snr final was a disaster but it has to be said, the Galway senior and intermediate finals were quality. The senior match was v good, particularly given that the pitch surface was cutting up badly after all the rain and the lunacy of playing double headers this time of year (almost all grass pitches in the west can't take back to back adult games this late in the year). The intermediate final in particular was a very high quality game this year. Two really entertaining games.

togoutlads (Galway) - Posts: 1124 - 06/11/2023 10:15:38    2511686

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Replying To crafty:  "Gaelic football is well past the point where it could have been saved. Look at the Mayo final for an example of where it is now. It's really an awful game now."
In fairness if the awful Mayo Final was typical then it would not have attracted so much attention. Dublin Final was one sided but good open football, Kildare Final was a competitive open game. Meath Final was a good robust open game, Kerry Final yesterday really entertaining, Galway Final, by all accounts the same. I am sure there were other really bad games also but was that not always the case?

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 1109 - 06/11/2023 12:08:35    2511726

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Replying To togoutlads:  "The Mayo snr final was a disaster but it has to be said, the Galway senior and intermediate finals were quality. The senior match was v good, particularly given that the pitch surface was cutting up badly after all the rain and the lunacy of playing double headers this time of year (almost all grass pitches in the west can't take back to back adult games this late in the year). The intermediate final in particular was a very high quality game this year. Two really entertaining games."
It has to be said, Mayo bet us in the NFL final too, and knocked us out of the Sam Maguire race.

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 4625 - 06/11/2023 12:46:19    2511733

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Replying To crafty:  "Gaelic football is well past the point where it could have been saved. Look at the Mayo final for an example of where it is now. It's really an awful game now."
The truth is gaelic football as a spectacle is dire, what makes it worse is you can call a result in most games before a ball is kicked. Lateral passing, back passing, then back pass to the goalkeeper and the spectacle starts all over again, that is only a small part of what's wrong with gaelic football.

It is never going anywhere other than down unless the game is reinvented in its entirety.

Croke Park, should show an interest by establishing a forum chaired by someone that is respected and knows the game, for example Michael Lyster, the panel should consist of say, 6 players from the top divisions to represent div 1 and div 2 another 6 from the lower divisions to represent div 3 and div 4, put their thoughts together and see what happens, and before someone comes on and dismisses this as rubbish well its nothing like the rubbish that is played out in most games on view.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 3385 - 06/11/2023 13:04:51    2511739

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "It sounds slightly complicated to referee. From seeing previous posts is there a rule with similarities to this in American football?, if yes how does it work well in American football?."
I continue to refine my new rule towards simplicity -

"The TEAM gaining possession between the two 65s (midfield) must EITHER have received a kick pass from behind their own defensive 45, OR if not so received, execute a kick from between the 65s to beyond the other attacking 45 instead. Unlimited passing before the attacking 65 permitted before suck kick, within a liberal shot clock limit."

If the ball flies over (kicked) the midfield area (between 65s), all bets are off - game continues as now.

This reminds me of the relatively new "50/22 rule in rugby union" - very effective, although not used very often.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3380 - 06/11/2023 14:22:30    2511761

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Replying To supersub15:  "The truth is gaelic football as a spectacle is dire, what makes it worse is you can call a result in most games before a ball is kicked. Lateral passing, back passing, then back pass to the goalkeeper and the spectacle starts all over again, that is only a small part of what's wrong with gaelic football.

It is never going anywhere other than down unless the game is reinvented in its entirety.

Croke Park, should show an interest by establishing a forum chaired by someone that is respected and knows the game, for example Michael Lyster, the panel should consist of say, 6 players from the top divisions to represent div 1 and div 2 another 6 from the lower divisions to represent div 3 and div 4, put their thoughts together and see what happens, and before someone comes on and dismisses this as rubbish well its nothing like the rubbish that is played out in most games on view."
Jasus I don't that's a fair statement at all. Some of the best most exciting games have been played in the last number of years between Mayo and Dublin. its all down to how the manager wants to play. If the manager wants to play 15 men inside the 45 defending then the opposition better kick points when available and stop trying to walk the ball in. some of these new rules are a disaster the biggest one been the offensive mark, needs to be binned

cluichethar (Mayo) - Posts: 616 - 06/11/2023 19:11:38    2511822

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Replying To Whammo86:  "That's because our championship in football divides the field into 4 so we don't get enough games between the really top teams."
I thought the round robin and the super 8s tried to achieve that. No?

ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 710 - 06/11/2023 20:26:03    2511829

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Outside of this forum I have yet to hear anyone who actually thinks the trend towards possession based football and the decline of kicking in Gaelic football is a good thing.
This website aside in all the times I heard people bemoan how the modern approach to how football is ruining the game I have never heard someone argue back saying they like the modern keep possession/ massed defense approach to the game.

In terms of these trends the 2 managers who really moved Gaelic football in this direction was Mickey Heart and Jim McGuinness.
In particular Jim McGuinness's Donegal took it to new levels, the 2011 semi final really was a horrible day in the evolution of Gaelic football.

The GAA have tweeked football rules since but have never looked like they will bring in a rule or rules that might actually make possession type football a non effective way to play the game.

I think a big problem is because of the success of Harte and McGuinness in winning All Irelands Ulster football people associate these tactics with Ulster success and this makes them opposed to anything that will actually bring about change.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1416 - 06/11/2023 22:31:05    2511837

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Replying To ZUL10:  "I thought the round robin and the super 8s tried to achieve that. No?"
The Super 8s yes. It did still have problems around the qualifying system and it wasn't really the top 8 teams playing in the Super 8s. It had the problem too of groups of 4 not being that exciting in Gaelic football because there aren't that many draws so it's quite common for a group with 2 through and 2 out to be decided after 2 rounds of fixtures.

The current round robin the top teams are kept apart as much as they were in the old qualifier system.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4615 - 07/11/2023 09:58:20    2511851

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