National Forum

Can Gaelic Football (Handball?) Be Saved?

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "I don't teams playing possession based games but I also don't like any of the 'mark' rules brought in, Gaelic football should not be a stop/ start game."
The mark ought to be dropped other than perhaps for a good catch in midfield from a kickout.

It has even turned instinctive goal getters like Con and others into serial claimers of marks, even where something would most likely come from them just ploughing on.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 4108 - 26/10/2023 13:17:21    2510438

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Replying To omahant:  "Reposting this from page 1 (modified):

With regards gaelic football rule changes, I think the 'greatest impact for the least tinkering' is the way to go. If limited to two changes, I would propose to trial the following:

1) Players between the two 45s are required to either: a) receive a "two-line kick pass" - across two of four consecutive lines, including both 45s and both 65s - or b) if he/she didn't receive one, execute one instead.

2) From an unbroken series of plays, the team in possession is required to shoot within a liberal 120 seconds (allows for plenty of tactical and not intended to be overly pressuring) - violation results in a free to the opposition at 'their' defensive 45.

I would leave everything else as is - short kick outs, unlimited handpasses, back passes to the goalkeeper etc.

Well - would this improve the game?"
Are you an NFL fan?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 18913 - 26/10/2023 13:30:44    2510443

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Replying To omahant:  "Reposting this from page 1 (modified):

With regards gaelic football rule changes, I think the 'greatest impact for the least tinkering' is the way to go. If limited to two changes, I would propose to trial the following:

1) Players between the two 45s are required to either: a) receive a "two-line kick pass" - across two of four consecutive lines, including both 45s and both 65s - or b) if he/she didn't receive one, execute one instead.

2) From an unbroken series of plays, the team in possession is required to shoot within a liberal 120 seconds (allows for plenty of tactical and not intended to be overly pressuring) - violation results in a free to the opposition at 'their' defensive 45.

I would leave everything else as is - short kick outs, unlimited handpasses, back passes to the goalkeeper etc.

Well - would this improve the game?"
The first one would bring about too many stoppages for me. Once you bring lines into play then it creates more on field debate/rowing between officials and players. I think the game has plenty of grey areas as it is and certainly could do without another one.

The second one could maybe work so long as it was enforced quickly to keep the game flowing. It would pain me to see football go the way of rugby or VAR infested soccer with constant interruptions and on field meetings. But how many series of plays and who counts them and who tells the players when the timer starts to shoot etc?

SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2627 - 26/10/2023 14:05:40    2510458

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "The mark ought to be dropped other than perhaps for a good catch in midfield from a kickout.

It has even turned instinctive goal getters like Con and others into serial claimers of marks, even where something would most likely come from them just ploughing on."
It has caused a major decline in a great skill and rewarded something most players do instinctively as they warm up for games. If anything is anti football rules like this.

SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2627 - 26/10/2023 14:16:27    2510465

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Replying To Viking66:  "Are you an NFL fan?"
Yes, but I don't see the relevance.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3380 - 26/10/2023 14:17:08    2510466

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Simple, one change of rule, you cannot pass ball backwards in your half,

Lockerroomboy (Wexford) - Posts: 533 - 26/10/2023 14:20:35    2510468

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "I agree with your point in that I don't blame managers for setting up defensively. Even though I give out about the modern possession based game I would also give out about a manager who played tactics which put put his team at a disadvantage when it came to winning matches. I would not see a contradiction in this.

The problem is the GAA have been unable to update the rules of Gaelic football in line with the fitness of players (the fitness of modern players have meant a possession based game is now the most effective way to play).

I have said I would like to make teams line up in positions for kickouts (like they do for the throw-ins).
It would be hard to implement a blanket with a rule like this in place as there are a lot of kickouts in a match. Penalise teams who delay kickouts by not having their team in position thus delaying kickouts.
If the penalties were harsh teams would be in posution
for the kickouts. It should be fairly easy to see if a tesm is blantly breaking a rule like this.

Another poster here suggested bringing in the Aussie Rules type challenge.

These type of suggestions could potentially tackle the issues facing Gaelic football by making putting a blanket in place difficult or not an effective way to play the game."
I'd be a bit concerned on how that kickout rule would be enforced. Who would check that all 30 players are in the right position? How long would they have to get there and who gets punished if both teams aren't back?

The Aussie rules challenge might work, at least we could define a challenge without splitting hairs. I can't see it slowing the game down either, possibly speeding it up. It would be a major change to how things are played and might take a bit of getting used to but I do see the merits of that one.

SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2627 - 26/10/2023 14:38:03    2510473

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Replying To omahant:  "Yes, but I don't see the relevance."
I am too. Well some would say I wasn't as I'm a Bears fan for my sins! In NFL there are enough game officials to police most of the rules changes you have proposed over the years. But there isn't in GAA.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 18913 - 26/10/2023 14:57:44    2510477

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Replying To Lockerroomboy:  "Simple, one change of rule, you cannot pass ball backwards in your half,"
That's the one. And Id extend it to you can't pass it back into your own half once it has left your half.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 18913 - 26/10/2023 14:58:48    2510478

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Replying To SaffronDon:  "The first one would bring about too many stoppages for me. Once you bring lines into play then it creates more on field debate/rowing between officials and players. I think the game has plenty of grey areas as it is and certainly could do without another one.

The second one could maybe work so long as it was enforced quickly to keep the game flowing. It would pain me to see football go the way of rugby or VAR infested soccer with constant interruptions and on field meetings. But how many series of plays and who counts them and who tells the players when the timer starts to shoot etc?"
Number of plays is unlimited (doesn't have to be counted) within the 2 minutes (would need an upstairs official resetting the clock (only practical at the most senior intercounty) - otherwise, the referee could estimate based on stop watch - I imagine the 120 seconds would rarely expire given its length, this is only to move the game along.

I don't see the kick rule as causing many stoppages - teams know they have to kick either in or out of the middle third of the field (middle 55 of 145 metres).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3380 - 26/10/2023 15:07:06    2510484

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Replying To Lockerroomboy:  "Simple, one change of rule, you cannot pass ball backwards in your half,"
That's a help - but why not put a kick rule in too - would return the game to what it should be.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3380 - 26/10/2023 15:08:46    2510486

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Replying To SaffronDon:  "I'd be a bit concerned on how that kickout rule would be enforced. Who would check that all 30 players are in the right position? How long would they have to get there and who gets punished if both teams aren't back?

The Aussie rules challenge might work, at least we could define a challenge without splitting hairs. I can't see it slowing the game down either, possibly speeding it up. It would be a major change to how things are played and might take a bit of getting used to but I do see the merits of that one."
There are plenty of lines across a GAA pitch, should be easy enough to define where full forward/ full back area; half forward/ half back area and midfield area.
Again in terms of enforcement of a rule like this is it should be obvious if a team is blatantly breaking this rule and putting a blanket in place for kickouts. Key would be that referees caught blatant infringements of this rule.

I think a rule like this could work well (ie. Specifically for kickouts) where as I don't think saying a team must keep a minimum number of players in an area at all times is realistic in a fluid game like Gaelic football.

A rule saying a team could not complete 2 consecutively hand passes in some incidences will not work well (if possible I would prefer rules which makes quick movement of the ball the most effective way to play rather than just banning 2 consecutively hand passes).

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1416 - 26/10/2023 16:46:26    2510502

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Replying To Lockerroomboy:  "Simple, one change of rule, you cannot pass ball backwards in your half,"
This has some merit and would be easily enough enforced but you would have to allow a minimum of one back pass, if you cannot pass back twice consecutively it might be better while still having (generally) the same effect.

New&Improved (Leitrim) - Posts: 41 - 26/10/2023 17:22:15    2510508

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Replying To Viking66:  "That's the one. And Id extend it to you can't pass it back into your own half once it has left your half."
This one was mentioned before but surely that would only encourage the blanket defence?

New&Improved (Leitrim) - Posts: 41 - 26/10/2023 17:24:25    2510509

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "There are plenty of lines across a GAA pitch, should be easy enough to define where full forward/ full back area; half forward/ half back area and midfield area.
Again in terms of enforcement of a rule like this is it should be obvious if a team is blatantly breaking this rule and putting a blanket in place for kickouts. Key would be that referees caught blatant infringements of this rule.

I think a rule like this could work well (ie. Specifically for kickouts) where as I don't think saying a team must keep a minimum number of players in an area at all times is realistic in a fluid game like Gaelic football.

A rule saying a team could not complete 2 consecutively hand passes in some incidences will not work well (if possible I would prefer rules which makes quick movement of the ball the most effective way to play rather than just banning 2 consecutively hand passes)."
I'd agree with this, hand passing as a skill is not the problem, its the fact that teams are passing the ball around in their own half unchallenged that slows the game down and makes it less exciting to watch.

BTW, not surprised this is coming from a Meath man, remembering Kevin Foley's goal in 1991 :)

New&Improved (Leitrim) - Posts: 41 - 26/10/2023 17:31:47    2510513

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Replying To Lockerroomboy:  "Simple, one change of rule, you cannot pass ball backwards in your half,"
I assume you mean once you pass the half way line you can't pass the ball backwards which I agree. Not passing it backwards while in your own half would be impossible to implement . When a team is under pressure 20 metres from goals and the defender passes the ball one metre sideways how can anyone tell if the ball went backwards by 6 inches. No point bringing in rules that can't be implemented. We have enough of those

eoinog (Sligo) - Posts: 2356 - 26/10/2023 17:34:28    2510516

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "There are plenty of lines across a GAA pitch, should be easy enough to define where full forward/ full back area; half forward/ half back area and midfield area.
Again in terms of enforcement of a rule like this is it should be obvious if a team is blatantly breaking this rule and putting a blanket in place for kickouts. Key would be that referees caught blatant infringements of this rule.

I think a rule like this could work well (ie. Specifically for kickouts) where as I don't think saying a team must keep a minimum number of players in an area at all times is realistic in a fluid game like Gaelic football.

A rule saying a team could not complete 2 consecutively hand passes in some incidences will not work well (if possible I would prefer rules which makes quick movement of the ball the most effective way to play rather than just banning 2 consecutively hand passes)."
Yes, I agree - in the Aussie AFL the ball moves quickly, often with a string of four or more hand passes. Given the size of their pitch, there is planty of kicking as well in order to cover vast territory.

Would my kick rule, into or out of the middle third, be that difficult to administer?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3380 - 26/10/2023 17:58:20    2510518

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Replying To Viking66:  "I am too. Well some would say I wasn't as I'm a Bears fan for my sins! In NFL there are enough game officials to police most of the rules changes you have proposed over the years. But there isn't in GAA."
NFL makes 180 times the Gaa's annual revenue. $18.6B versus €100m. That might help explain the referee count.

Even at that price bracket, the NFL has officiating issues too. Massive inconsistencies with 'holding penalties', quarterback 'overprotection', and pass interferences, to name just three cropping up regularly, despite the attentions of professional refereeing crews.

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 4625 - 26/10/2023 18:00:42    2510521

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Replying To New&Improved:  "This one was mentioned before but surely that would only encourage the blanket defence?"
Yes and no. Say you are up against a blanket defence. You have to move the ball forwards til you are in their half. They know you can't go back into your half so move forwards to press the lads in possession to try force a turnover. Then there is more space in behind. If they don't move forwards to press the ball you will still have the lateral passing though.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 18913 - 26/10/2023 18:04:29    2510523

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Replying To New&Improved:  "This one was mentioned before but surely that would only encourage the blanket defence?"
I think this is the issue with most proposed solutions they are directed at the team in possession and restricting what they can do, this will doubly encourage less talented teams to be more defensive.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 1109 - 26/10/2023 22:37:03    2510554

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