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Replying To Aibrean: "What on earth is this post doing here? It has no relevance to the subject and no relevance to previous posts and, unfortunately, has led to others responding." I think I posted this on a different topic (Will Rugby World Cup Harm Gaa).
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1416 - 21/10/2023 19:02:48
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Replying To Aibrean: "What on earth is this post doing here? It has no relevance to the subject and no relevance to previous posts and, unfortunately, has led to others responding." Threads evolve. Gaelic football does not need to be "saved".
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6196 - 21/10/2023 19:36:39
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Replying To points50swiththeargyllsonthewrongfeet: "Hmm, they do little other than handpass in rugby, when they're not engaged in mass shoving matches (rugby league a better variant of rugby for me than union tbh), so how come lots of handpasses in rugby = good while lots of handpassing in Gaelic football = bad?" Rugby and Gaelic football completely sport, the passing in Rugby suits the type of game it is.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1416 - 23/10/2023 07:42:27
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Replying To points50swiththeargyllsonthewrongfeet: "Get rid of the forward mark. I despise it! Also get rid of all scores from the hands. Play 13 a side, and allow for an AFL type drag down tackle (while banning the shoulder, which has no place in the modern game). That'd encourage people to defend higher up the pitch, and it'd also motivate people to get rid of the ball quicker." The drag down tackle an interesting idea, that might make possession based game plans unworkable.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1416 - 23/10/2023 07:45:01
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Replying To bdbuddah: "The drag down tackle an interesting idea, that might make possession based game plans unworkable." Yep. Possession game in gaelic football is almost foolproof. You can only tackle the ball, any touch on the man is technically a foul.
Also the 4 step rule is seldom enforced.
A tackle on the man and he must let go of the ball would certainly introduce some jeopardy into Possession.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2558 - 23/10/2023 11:12:39
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Replying To Pope_Benedict: " Replying To Aibrean: "The mess into which football has 'developed' is highlighted by the recent report by the Standing Committee on Playing Rules - see link below. The main points are:
• 421 handpasses v 130 kickpasses per game.
• Approx. 82% of kickpasses are uncontested.
• Approx 35% of footpasses go backwards.
• Only 41% of forward kickpasses travel more than 15m.
• 23 passes (kickpasses + handpasses) to the goalkeeper in 2023 championship.
• Only 6.6 high catches per game of which 60% were uncontested.
• Number of attacking marks/game is 2.7
• 64% of kickouts are uncontested.
• In 78% of cases there was no press on the kickout.
<b>So, the current game is what we called long ago 'a kick around' (no marking) except that it is not even a kick around, it's 'a handpass around'.</b>
<b>These are the facts. Next question is - the difficult part - what do we do about it?
</b>
https://www.gaa.ie/football/news/statistical-analysis-report-reveals-the-essence-of-modern-gaelic-football/"</div>Tom Smith would be turning in his grave reading that, if he was dead like. It's an ugly ass game now alright, and only certain staunch participants, usually of the younger vintage, can even begin to defend it as a spectacle." Nonsense.
galwayford (Galway) - Posts: 2743 - 23/10/2023 11:17:37
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Replying To bdbuddah: "Taken as a one off competition being knocked out in Rugby world cup in the quarter finals by NZ in a close game (having beat SA in pool stages) is not a terrible performance.
But historically, when compared with similar competitive six nations teams Ireland have a terrible record in the Rugby world cup (never getting to a semi final in the 10 editions of the Rugby world cup) even if we have had some decent one off wins in pool stages over the years.
But that doesn't negate all the other good things that have happened to Irish rugby since the century began.
The world cup is the pinnacle but winning a grand slam is also a significant achievement.
The test series win in New Zeland was also a huge achievement, its very rare that teams win there let alone win a series.
I wouldn't call the other games friendlies, as we don't play the strong southern hemisphere teams in a regular competition they are taken seriously." Meath are not good at Gaelic football.
galwayford (Galway) - Posts: 2743 - 23/10/2023 11:19:23
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Replying To bdbuddah: "I always have to laugh a bit when people defend the negative aspects of the game and call them tactical innovations in the game when all a lot of the master tacticians are doing is keeping most of their most of the players in the pitch back just to block off space.
Gaelic football as a sport was totally unsuitable to these innovations.
I have a nephew who was very quick and at underage club football was effective as the ball was kicked into space he could use his pace to get to the ball.
By the time he got to minor the way the games was played his speed wasn't really utilised.
I'd love to see the GAA make teams line up in their positions for kickouts as there are so many kickouts in a game this would make implementing a blanked very difficult.
Your talking about bad games in the good old days.
Team preparation nowadays is a different level to the old days.
If you watched the highlights of an old game and a recent game the recent game would look better as it would have more scores from play and the highlight reel would only show these scores but if you watched the full recent game you would realise how much boring motonous handpassing in front of a massed defense actually takes place in many modern games." I should probably clarify the tactical innovation a bit. I mean when these tactics were introduced by Harte and McGuinness they won All Ireland's with them. Their players weren't just part of a great team, they were some great individual players too. Unfortunately what followed was a mixed bag of managers who thought they could copy the basics but a lot of the time they failed to utilise the strengths of some individuals within their squad.
Your nephew was maybe a victim of bad management as a good manager would still have used a good pacy player in transition and running the ball into counter attack. Unfortunately, some managers don't coach this properly and there are some terrible sideways football that rarely creates a highlight. But again, law of averages has always thrown up bad matches in every era. People only seem to highlight the current ones though.
I still don't think the answer is to throw the baby out with the bath water. Tactics are there to be beaten and it's the job of an intercounty manager to show why he was selected for that level of management by getting the best out of his team individually and tactically. Putting out old school 15 Vs 15 man marking in this day and age would get you a hiding to nothing, especially against top sides. I don't want to see rule changes just because managers, many who get well paid, don't step up and find a way to counter act their opponents and would rather campaign for an easier life. In soccer, Pep and his style of football changed the way things are done in the game but nobody is calling for some limited passing rule to beat the system. They rightly leave an open field for managers to earn their keep and I can't see why this shouldn't apply to our sport.
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2627 - 24/10/2023 16:40:48
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Replying To SaffronDon: "I should probably clarify the tactical innovation a bit. I mean when these tactics were introduced by Harte and McGuinness they won All Ireland's with them. Their players weren't just part of a great team, they were some great individual players too. Unfortunately what followed was a mixed bag of managers who thought they could copy the basics but a lot of the time they failed to utilise the strengths of some individuals within their squad.
Your nephew was maybe a victim of bad management as a good manager would still have used a good pacy player in transition and running the ball into counter attack. Unfortunately, some managers don't coach this properly and there are some terrible sideways football that rarely creates a highlight. But again, law of averages has always thrown up bad matches in every era. People only seem to highlight the current ones though.
I still don't think the answer is to throw the baby out with the bath water. Tactics are there to be beaten and it's the job of an intercounty manager to show why he was selected for that level of management by getting the best out of his team individually and tactically. Putting out old school 15 Vs 15 man marking in this day and age would get you a hiding to nothing, especially against top sides. I don't want to see rule changes just because managers, many who get well paid, don't step up and find a way to counter act their opponents and would rather campaign for an easier life. In soccer, Pep and his style of football changed the way things are done in the game but nobody is calling for some limited passing rule to beat the system. They rightly leave an open field for managers to earn their keep and I can't see why this shouldn't apply to our sport." For me and many others a lot of the tactical ' innovations' have already in some ways removed the baby from the bath in that we no longer see, in many games, what was the basic aspects of gaelic football (long kicking (quick movement) of the ball/ one on one battles for possession etc.).
I remember decades ago Mícheal O Muircheartaigh in an interview being asked what makes Gaelic football and hurling special and he said if you miss a minute of a football or hurling match you can miss a lot. The tactical 'innovations ' people talk about are just unsuitable to Gaelic football.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1416 - 25/10/2023 09:31:30
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Replying To SaffronDon: "I should probably clarify the tactical innovation a bit. I mean when these tactics were introduced by Harte and McGuinness they won All Ireland's with them. Their players weren't just part of a great team, they were some great individual players too. Unfortunately what followed was a mixed bag of managers who thought they could copy the basics but a lot of the time they failed to utilise the strengths of some individuals within their squad.
Your nephew was maybe a victim of bad management as a good manager would still have used a good pacy player in transition and running the ball into counter attack. Unfortunately, some managers don't coach this properly and there are some terrible sideways football that rarely creates a highlight. But again, law of averages has always thrown up bad matches in every era. People only seem to highlight the current ones though.
I still don't think the answer is to throw the baby out with the bath water. Tactics are there to be beaten and it's the job of an intercounty manager to show why he was selected for that level of management by getting the best out of his team individually and tactically. Putting out old school 15 Vs 15 man marking in this day and age would get you a hiding to nothing, especially against top sides. I don't want to see rule changes just because managers, many who get well paid, don't step up and find a way to counter act their opponents and would rather campaign for an easier life. In soccer, Pep and his style of football changed the way things are done in the game but nobody is calling for some limited passing rule to beat the system. They rightly leave an open field for managers to earn their keep and I can't see why this shouldn't apply to our sport." I read an interesting book on the evolution of soccer tactics. How it started from everyone attacking to becoming more an more a defensive game. It looks like a similar evolution is happening in football.
In soccer there are now 3 main ways of playing - Pep's possession style - pass pass pass; the soak up pressure and fast counter attack game along with the Hi-Octane "Press everywhere" style of Klopp. Real Madrid won some many European cups as they were able to mix all 3 styles together and recognise what was needed at each time in a game.
In football it looks like we've had similar styles emerge - the possession style is almost ubiquitous at the moment - but when you see the speed of Derry's counter attack you can see how the game is evolving still. Mayo tend to try and play a bit more of the "Press Everywhere" game. Dublin have evolved to be comfortable playing whichever style works on the day - and hence are the team to beat.
Its up to the managers to prepare the players to play to their strengths and that will vary from game to game.
For me - I think it is very difficult to press effectively in football; the lack of a clearly defined tackle and the size of the pitch make it a difficult thing to do effectively - only the fittest teams have a chance of doing it. But pressing will be the best way to counteract the possession game - i.e. force errors rather than wait for mistakes. For now as long as teams can turn around and recycle, recycle and recycle the possession game is king. An innovation will come and restore more balance back to the game.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 487 - 25/10/2023 10:21:18
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Replying To bdbuddah: "For me and many others a lot of the tactical ' innovations' have already in some ways removed the baby from the bath in that we no longer see, in many games, what was the basic aspects of gaelic football (long kicking (quick movement) of the ball/ one on one battles for possession etc.).
I remember decades ago Mícheal O Muircheartaigh in an interview being asked what makes Gaelic football and hurling special and he said if you miss a minute of a football or hurling match you can miss a lot. The tactical 'innovations ' people talk about are just unsuitable to Gaelic football." There is nothing stopping any team from playing a game or system that utilises long kicking and one on one marking. The problem is that both skills are very easy to counter act and beat once the opposition know that's the plan. But then if you were to start changing rules to bring them back and limit handpassing, what way would that unfold? How do you keep track of one on one positional marking? Counting hand passes along with steps, bounces and fouls would be nearly impossible for officials. I think any of these new rule ideas would also slow the game down just as much by the time the refs try to keep up with them all.
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2627 - 25/10/2023 10:25:59
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If you don't enjoy football just watch the hurling and leave the rest of us to enjoy both. Minority cranks will always complain about something
Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12494 - 25/10/2023 10:42:21
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Replying To brianb: "I read an interesting book on the evolution of soccer tactics. How it started from everyone attacking to becoming more an more a defensive game. It looks like a similar evolution is happening in football.
In soccer there are now 3 main ways of playing - Pep's possession style - pass pass pass; the soak up pressure and fast counter attack game along with the Hi-Octane "Press everywhere" style of Klopp. Real Madrid won some many European cups as they were able to mix all 3 styles together and recognise what was needed at each time in a game.
In football it looks like we've had similar styles emerge - the possession style is almost ubiquitous at the moment - but when you see the speed of Derry's counter attack you can see how the game is evolving still. Mayo tend to try and play a bit more of the "Press Everywhere" game. Dublin have evolved to be comfortable playing whichever style works on the day - and hence are the team to beat.
Its up to the managers to prepare the players to play to their strengths and that will vary from game to game.
For me - I think it is very difficult to press effectively in football; the lack of a clearly defined tackle and the size of the pitch make it a difficult thing to do effectively - only the fittest teams have a chance of doing it. But pressing will be the best way to counteract the possession game - i.e. force errors rather than wait for mistakes. For now as long as teams can turn around and recycle, recycle and recycle the possession game is king. An innovation will come and restore more balance back to the game." That's a good analysis. Interesting point about that lack of clearly defined tackle in the game. It's also more difficult to press well in football as the ball is in the carriers hands and he can navigate the ball a lot easier to a teammate when 3 opposition players aim to press him than it is in soccer and the ball is at the carriers feet with less room to maneuver. For what it's worth, I'd love to see a more entertaining game if that would be possible but I've yet to see any suggestions through rule changes that really support this. The mark has been a prime example of a very weak rule that adds nothing to the game for me. I agree that it's up to managers to do the job they told the county board they were good enough to do and use some original ideas and man management to get beyond the basic templates that we see today.
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2627 - 25/10/2023 10:47:06
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Replying To brianb: "I read an interesting book on the evolution of soccer tactics. How it started from everyone attacking to becoming more an more a defensive game. It looks like a similar evolution is happening in football.
In soccer there are now 3 main ways of playing - Pep's possession style - pass pass pass; the soak up pressure and fast counter attack game along with the Hi-Octane "Press everywhere" style of Klopp. Real Madrid won some many European cups as they were able to mix all 3 styles together and recognise what was needed at each time in a game.
In football it looks like we've had similar styles emerge - the possession style is almost ubiquitous at the moment - but when you see the speed of Derry's counter attack you can see how the game is evolving still. Mayo tend to try and play a bit more of the "Press Everywhere" game. Dublin have evolved to be comfortable playing whichever style works on the day - and hence are the team to beat.
Its up to the managers to prepare the players to play to their strengths and that will vary from game to game.
For me - I think it is very difficult to press effectively in football; the lack of a clearly defined tackle and the size of the pitch make it a difficult thing to do effectively - only the fittest teams have a chance of doing it. But pressing will be the best way to counteract the possession game - i.e. force errors rather than wait for mistakes. For now as long as teams can turn around and recycle, recycle and recycle the possession game is king. An innovation will come and restore more balance back to the game." Spot on. Soccer did tackle this problem to an extent by outlawing the keeper picking up the ball after backpasses. I don't think soccers smaller pitch should make much difference, as they only have 22 lads on it instead of 30. The bigger problem is the defending team have no interest in regaining possession when the attacking team have it so far out the pitch that they can't score. They'd rather just wait for a mistake than try to force one and leave more space in scoring areas by doing so. Unless time is nearly up and the defending team are down a point or 2. I've watched loads of football games over the last 20 years where really I could've just watched the last 10 minutes and seen all the excitement!
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 18913 - 25/10/2023 12:11:41
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See the tackle being mentioned a bit here, allowing multiple players to tackle for the ball has helped the defending team too much. For me the simple solution is only one can challenge for the ball, the problem I see with wrap around/drag down is a rise in injuries, particularly head injuries/facial injuries, it will probably also lead to more handpassing and you will probably end up with a game that's basically compromise rules.
Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1746 - 25/10/2023 12:40:52
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Replying To Barrowsider: "See the tackle being mentioned a bit here, allowing multiple players to tackle for the ball has helped the defending team too much. For me the simple solution is only one can challenge for the ball, the problem I see with wrap around/drag down is a rise in injuries, particularly head injuries/facial injuries, it will probably also lead to more handpassing and you will probably end up with a game that's basically compromise rules." You mean more head injuries than the man marking days when players got away with GBH against the ball carrier?
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2627 - 25/10/2023 17:27:36
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Replying To SaffronDon: "There is nothing stopping any team from playing a game or system that utilises long kicking and one on one marking. The problem is that both skills are very easy to counter act and beat once the opposition know that's the plan. But then if you were to start changing rules to bring them back and limit handpassing, what way would that unfold? How do you keep track of one on one positional marking? Counting hand passes along with steps, bounces and fouls would be nearly impossible for officials. I think any of these new rule ideas would also slow the game down just as much by the time the refs try to keep up with them all." I agree with your point in that I don't blame managers for setting up defensively. Even though I give out about the modern possession based game I would also give out about a manager who played tactics which put put his team at a disadvantage when it came to winning matches. I would not see a contradiction in this.
The problem is the GAA have been unable to update the rules of Gaelic football in line with the fitness of players (the fitness of modern players have meant a possession based game is now the most effective way to play).
I have said I would like to make teams line up in positions for kickouts (like they do for the throw-ins).
It would be hard to implement a blanket with a rule like this in place as there are a lot of kickouts in a match. Penalise teams who delay kickouts by not having their team in position thus delaying kickouts.
If the penalties were harsh teams would be in posution
for the kickouts. It should be fairly easy to see if a tesm is blantly breaking a rule like this.
Another poster here suggested bringing in the Aussie Rules type challenge.
These type of suggestions could potentially tackle the issues facing Gaelic football by making putting a blanket in place difficult or not an effective way to play the game.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1416 - 25/10/2023 22:58:38
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Replying To SaffronDon: "That's a good analysis. Interesting point about that lack of clearly defined tackle in the game. It's also more difficult to press well in football as the ball is in the carriers hands and he can navigate the ball a lot easier to a teammate when 3 opposition players aim to press him than it is in soccer and the ball is at the carriers feet with less room to maneuver. For what it's worth, I'd love to see a more entertaining game if that would be possible but I've yet to see any suggestions through rule changes that really support this. The mark has been a prime example of a very weak rule that adds nothing to the game for me. I agree that it's up to managers to do the job they told the county board they were good enough to do and use some original ideas and man management to get beyond the basic templates that we see today." Reposting this from page 1 (modified):
With regards gaelic football rule changes, I think the 'greatest impact for the least tinkering' is the way to go. If limited to two changes, I would propose to trial the following:
1) Players between the two 45s are required to either: a) receive a "two-line kick pass" - across two of four consecutive lines, including both 45s and both 65s - or b) if he/she didn't receive one, execute one instead.
2) From an unbroken series of plays, the team in possession is required to shoot within a liberal 120 seconds (allows for plenty of tactical and not intended to be overly pressuring) - violation results in a free to the opposition at 'their' defensive 45.
I would leave everything else as is - short kick outs, unlimited handpasses, back passes to the goalkeeper etc.
Well - would this improve the game?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3380 - 26/10/2023 04:28:43
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Replying To SaffronDon: "You mean more head injuries than the man marking days when players got away with GBH against the ball carrier?" Along with the extra fitness of players referees giving easier frees to tye man in possession of the ball in modern times (compared to say 1980's) has defiantly played into making possession based football being a more effective way to plY the game.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1416 - 26/10/2023 13:03:04
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I don't teams playing possession based games but I also don't like any of the 'mark' rules brought in, Gaelic football should not be a stop/ start game.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1416 - 26/10/2023 13:08:00
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