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Can Gaelic Football (Handball?) Be Saved?

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Tribalism and close games will continue to attract the crowds."
Pretty much the entire raison d'etre of sport!

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 4108 - 19/10/2023 17:20:21    2509300

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I read through this thread expecting to find a legion of posters strongly rebutting the OP and countering that the game was never in better shape. Surprised to find very little of that here which I take as a sign of hope that there is a groundswell now that recognizes that the game has major problems which need fixing.
Point has been made that the All Ireland final this year was an entertaining game (which it was) and also the most watched game of the year. The latter point is not relevant in that people who have no interest at all in gaelic football from one end of the year to the next will throw an eye on the All Ireland final because it is the All Ireland final (event junkies and all that!). I'd say even in Donegal, Cavan, and Monaghan, the All Ireland hurling final would be put on in lots of homes even though they might not have watched a minute of earlier round games!

I was the All Ireland football final 2 years ago, Galway vs Kerry (another good game) but was struck by the number of times during the game where the crowd was completely silent as the handpassing over and back, across and backwards took place. You could almost have heard a pin drop during those short periods of quietness. Never thought I would experience that at an All Ireland final but such is the modern game.

Rugby is not my game at all and so far I have only watched 2 games in the current World Cup... Ireland vs South Africa and NZ vs France.... but what humdingers they were from start to finish, and before anyone says they had interludes too, yes they had, but they were needed for both spectators and players to catch their breath. It is a long long time since I saw a gaelic football match that was as engrossing as those 2 games were. As an outsider it seems to me that rugby has done everything to make their game as entertaining as possible , and it is paying dividends with the growing popularity of the game. I'd like to think that the GAA authorities might someday do the same for gaelic football (and also have a look at hurling cos it has room for improvement too imo)

PoolSturgeon (Galway) - Posts: 2121 - 20/10/2023 09:17:25    2509351

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "It was a good game. Perhaps for some of us more than others :-)

Seriously, though, there were lots of good games during the year. Perhaps not classic football but "compelling." Kerry v Derry being another. Some of the Connacht games, Armagh/Galway, just off top of my head.

I'm not huge into rugby but some of the games I have watched have been compelling in same way, even though I've seen purists claim that they were poor for one reason or another. Dublin or Kerry destroying teams in the past were often technical master classes, but hardly edge of seat stuff."
That's where you have to find the balance, you want games like kerry vs derry dublin vs kerry armagh vs derry in the ulster final was another good game. All those games had plenty of what we love about the game, then you had armagh vs monaghan roscommon vs dublin which grab the headlines for the wrong reasons, borefests where one or both teams have no intention of engaging the other in a meaningful way, but who wants to sit through lobsided games such as kerry vs clare or dublin vs louth either. Maybe we need more jeopardy in our competitions

Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1746 - 20/10/2023 09:36:51    2509354

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Pretty much the entire raison d'etre of sport!"
Where is Shamrock? Where is St Patrick's? Where is Bohemian?

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2558 - 20/10/2023 11:49:59    2509396

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "
Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Pretty much the entire<i> raison d'etre</i> of sport!"</div>Where is Shamrock? Where is St Patrick's? Where is Bohemian?"
What have the names got to do with anything? Plenty of GAA clubs named after Saints or Patriots.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 18913 - 20/10/2023 12:05:48    2509410

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Taken as a one off competition being knocked out in Rugby world cup in the quarter finals by NZ in a close game (having beat SA in pool stages) is not a terrible performance.
But historically, when compared with similar competitive six nations teams Ireland have a terrible record in the Rugby world cup (never getting to a semi final in the 10 editions of the Rugby world cup) even if we have had some decent one off wins in pool stages over the years.
But that doesn't negate all the other good things that have happened to Irish rugby since the century began.
The world cup is the pinnacle but winning a grand slam is also a significant achievement.
The test series win in New Zeland was also a huge achievement, its very rare that teams win there let alone win a series.
I wouldn't call the other games friendlies, as we don't play the strong southern hemisphere teams in a regular competition they are taken seriously.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1416 - 20/10/2023 13:52:22    2509446

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "Taken as a one off competition being knocked out in Rugby world cup in the quarter finals by NZ in a close game (having beat SA in pool stages) is not a terrible performance.
But historically, when compared with similar competitive six nations teams Ireland have a terrible record in the Rugby world cup (never getting to a semi final in the 10 editions of the Rugby world cup) even if we have had some decent one off wins in pool stages over the years.
But that doesn't negate all the other good things that have happened to Irish rugby since the century began.
The world cup is the pinnacle but winning a grand slam is also a significant achievement.
The test series win in New Zeland was also a huge achievement, its very rare that teams win there let alone win a series.
I wouldn't call the other games friendlies, as we don't play the strong southern hemisphere teams in a regular competition they are taken seriously."
Wales France and England have all won around 3 times as many grand slams as ourselves and the Scots. We have 4 in 120 odd years, and the Scots 3. The Scots are closer to our level than the the other 3.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 18913 - 20/10/2023 14:29:51    2509465

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Replying To Viking66:  "Wales France and England have all won around 3 times as many grand slams as ourselves and the Scots. We have 4 in 120 odd years, and the Scots 3. The Scots are closer to our level than the the other 3."
120 odd years of history seems to have left very little impression on the history of the wholly professional segment. The move from amateur to professional has seen Ireland go from also rans to standard setters. From one end of the spectrum to the other.

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 4624 - 20/10/2023 14:53:46    2509470

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Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "120 odd years of history seems to have left very little impression on the history of the wholly professional segment. The move from amateur to professional has seen Ireland go from also rans to standard setters. From one end of the spectrum to the other."
Agreed the IRFU have performed really well on and off the pitch during the professional era. But we also had a very good team in the 40s and the team of the 80s that I grew up watching were very good also.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 18913 - 20/10/2023 14:58:44    2509473

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Replying To Viking66:  "Agreed the IRFU have performed really well on and off the pitch during the professional era. But we also had a very good team in the 40s and the team of the 80s that I grew up watching were very good also."
'The team of the 80s' landed wooden spoons in '81 '84 and '86, the only 'nation' to win a spoon that decade. Interspersed those spoons with triple crowns or championship shares in '82 '83 & '85. Remarkable contrast in results that over 6 seasons. Where's your f***ing pride indeed!! It showed up every second season or so in that amateur era, if alickadoos were lucky.

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 4624 - 20/10/2023 16:03:30    2509492

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Replying To SaffronDon:  "It's called football Des, blah blah blah. Why don't basketball players carry baskets while your at it. We could change American football to 'American carry ball' because that's mostly what they do. The hand pass has always been part of the game but we must be the only sport/game in the world where fans call for an end to its fundamentals when an innovative manager comes along or one or two traditional counties aren't getting their usual trophy formalities every year. It's very easy to forget the God awful displays from the 'good old days' when team possession stats must've been like a division 3 club side lining out the morning after Paddy's Day. Tactics are there to be beaten, that's where managers earn their praise. But I guess it's a lot easier to copy or complain."
I always have to laugh a bit when people defend the negative aspects of the game and call them tactical innovations in the game when all a lot of the master tacticians are doing is keeping most of their most of the players in the pitch back just to block off space.

Gaelic football as a sport was totally unsuitable to these innovations.

I have a nephew who was very quick and at underage club football was effective as the ball was kicked into space he could use his pace to get to the ball.

By the time he got to minor the way the games was played his speed wasn't really utilised.

I'd love to see the GAA make teams line up in their positions for kickouts as there are so many kickouts in a game this would make implementing a blanked very difficult.

Your talking about bad games in the good old days.
Team preparation nowadays is a different level to the old days.
If you watched the highlights of an old game and a recent game the recent game would look better as it would have more scores from play and the highlight reel would only show these scores but if you watched the full recent game you would realise how much boring motonous handpassing in front of a massed defense actually takes place in many modern games.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1416 - 20/10/2023 16:50:35    2509501

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "
Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Pretty much the entire<i> raison d'etre</i> of sport!"</div>Where is Shamrock? Where is St Patrick's? Where is Bohemian?"
Rovers originally Ringsend, Pat's still Inchicore and Bohs have established a smallish northside base as default successor to Drumcondra, having been for years the British army/protestant team but not really a force. So yes, there are local rivalries there too, or were.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 4108 - 20/10/2023 18:11:20    2509507

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Good Enough game to play, boring to watch though, so no hope of a major revival I think.

giveitlong (Galway) - Posts: 1309 - 20/10/2023 18:27:36    2509510

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Replying To PoolSturgeon:  "I read through this thread expecting to find a legion of posters strongly rebutting the OP and countering that the game was never in better shape. Surprised to find very little of that here which I take as a sign of hope that there is a groundswell now that recognizes that the game has major problems which need fixing.
Point has been made that the All Ireland final this year was an entertaining game (which it was) and also the most watched game of the year. The latter point is not relevant in that people who have no interest at all in gaelic football from one end of the year to the next will throw an eye on the All Ireland final because it is the All Ireland final (event junkies and all that!). I'd say even in Donegal, Cavan, and Monaghan, the All Ireland hurling final would be put on in lots of homes even though they might not have watched a minute of earlier round games!

I was the All Ireland football final 2 years ago, Galway vs Kerry (another good game) but was struck by the number of times during the game where the crowd was completely silent as the handpassing over and back, across and backwards took place. You could almost have heard a pin drop during those short periods of quietness. Never thought I would experience that at an All Ireland final but such is the modern game.

Rugby is not my game at all and so far I have only watched 2 games in the current World Cup... Ireland vs South Africa and NZ vs France.... but what humdingers they were from start to finish, and before anyone says they had interludes too, yes they had, but they were needed for both spectators and players to catch their breath. It is a long long time since I saw a gaelic football match that was as engrossing as those 2 games were. As an outsider it seems to me that rugby has done everything to make their game as entertaining as possible , and it is paying dividends with the growing popularity of the game. I'd like to think that the GAA authorities might someday do the same for gaelic football (and also have a look at hurling cos it has room for improvement too imo)"
Hmm, they do little other than handpass in rugby, when they're not engaged in mass shoving matches (rugby league a better variant of rugby for me than union tbh), so how come lots of handpasses in rugby = good while lots of handpassing in Gaelic football = bad?

points50swiththeargyllsonthewrongfeet (Tyrone) - Posts: 322 - 20/10/2023 19:13:39    2509512

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Get rid of the forward mark. I despise it! Also get rid of all scores from the hands. Play 13 a side, and allow for an AFL type drag down tackle (while banning the shoulder, which has no place in the modern game). That'd encourage people to defend higher up the pitch, and it'd also motivate people to get rid of the ball quicker.

points50swiththeargyllsonthewrongfeet (Tyrone) - Posts: 322 - 20/10/2023 19:18:57    2509513

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Replying To Viking66:  "Agreed the IRFU have performed really well on and off the pitch during the professional era. But we also had a very good team in the 40s and the team of the 80s that I grew up watching were very good also."
In the 40s were we very good or were we a ok side helped by fact we were impacted by WW2 far less than any of the opposition??

IRFU performed well from after the 1999 world cup as the loss to argentina and having to qualify for the 03 world cup forced irfu to change their entire approach to pro rugby...

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3952 - 20/10/2023 20:47:11    2509516

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Replying To Viking66:  "Agreed the IRFU have performed really well on and off the pitch during the professional era. But we also had a very good team in the 40s and the team of the 80s that I grew up watching were very good also."
IRFU had a big advantage going into the pro era in that provincial rugby was already established in Ireland and the provinces were under IRFU control. Scotland Wales had to amalgamate fiercely rival clubs to establish pro regional sides and lost their fan base. Ireland rugby have thrived in the pro era but did start with a big advantage

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 1109 - 20/10/2023 21:34:00    2509518

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Doesn't need to be "saved". It's the heartbeat of our lives where I'm from. I've been going to matches for 50 years, and been absorbed by every minute. Obviously, I've no taste, but sure I'm happy in my ignorance.

points50swiththeargyllsonthewrongfeet (Tyrone) - Posts: 322 - 20/10/2023 22:45:55    2509522

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Replying To Viking66:  "Agreed the IRFU have performed really well on and off the pitch during the professional era. But we also had a very good team in the 40s and the team of the 80s that I grew up watching were very good also."
Has the IRFU really performed well on and off the field in the professional era? There is no doubt but that the Irish team is an outstanding team at present and there is a conveyor belt of underage talent coming through. However we are still the only major test playing nation that has never made a semi final in the World Cup. The World Cup is the premier international rugby competition. We have had ten World Cups and we still haven't won a knockout match. Our record is abysmal. Since the advent of professionalism in 1995 we have been the third most successful team in the Six Nations. France have won 4 Grand Slams and 8 championships. Wales are 4 and 6. We are 3 are and 6. England are 2 and 9 and Scotland are 0 and 1.
The provinces are a mixed bag. Leinster are brilliant. Hopefully they can win the Champions Cup in 2024. I still feel they blew the final this year. Munster this years Pro 14 success notwithstanding have been hugely disappointing for a decade. Ulster have been even more disappointing and are a bit of a basket case at this stage. Connacht battle bravely.
The club scene is nowhere near what it should be. It is neglected by the IRFU and has absolutely no profile whatsoever. This year's AIL Finals weren't broadcast live on either RTÉ tv or radio. The attendance at this year's finals was a record 8,500 approx. That's 3,000 less than attended the Cork Senior Hurling Final this year. It is a fraction of the crowds that attend the All Ireland Club Finals and the FAI Cup Final. The lack of coverage of the club scene and its nonexistent public profile is a damning indictment of the IRFU.
To what extent has the IRFU grown the game? How many new clubs been developed over the last 28 years? When I played rugby decades ago there were three rugby clubs in Louth. There are still three clubs today. How do the numbers participating in women's rugby compare with the numbers playing women's Gaelic games and women's soccer? Both of those organisations have been more successful when it comes to promoting women's participation in sport than have the IRFU. I believe the IRFU has got a remarkably easy ride in many ways. Maybe it's time they were asked a few questions.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6196 - 20/10/2023 23:36:28    2509525

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "Taken as a one off competition being knocked out in Rugby world cup in the quarter finals by NZ in a close game (having beat SA in pool stages) is not a terrible performance.
But historically, when compared with similar competitive six nations teams Ireland have a terrible record in the Rugby world cup (never getting to a semi final in the 10 editions of the Rugby world cup) even if we have had some decent one off wins in pool stages over the years.
But that doesn't negate all the other good things that have happened to Irish rugby since the century began.
The world cup is the pinnacle but winning a grand slam is also a significant achievement.
The test series win in New Zeland was also a huge achievement, its very rare that teams win there let alone win a series.
I wouldn't call the other games friendlies, as we don't play the strong southern hemisphere teams in a regular competition they are taken seriously."
What on earth is this post doing here? It has no relevance to the subject and no relevance to previous posts and, unfortunately, has led to others responding.

Aibrean (Kerry) - Posts: 360 - 21/10/2023 11:29:12    2509538

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