|
The mess into which football has 'developed' is highlighted by the recent report by the Standing Committee on Playing Rules - see link below. The main points are:
• 421 handpasses v 130 kickpasses per game.
• Approx. 82% of kickpasses are uncontested.
• Approx 35% of footpasses go backwards.
• Only 41% of forward kickpasses travel more than 15m.
• 23 passes (kickpasses + handpasses) to the goalkeeper in 2023 championship.
• Only 6.6 high catches per game of which 60% were uncontested.
• Number of attacking marks/game is 2.7
• 64% of kickouts are uncontested.
• In 78% of cases there was no press on the kickout.
So, the current game is what we called long ago 'a kick around' (no marking) except that it is not even a kick around, it's 'a handpass around'.
These are the facts. Next question is - the difficult part - what do we do about it?
https://www.gaa.ie/football/news/statistical-analysis-report-reveals-the-essence-of-modern-gaelic-football/
Aibrean (Kerry) - Posts: 360 - 13/10/2023 10:27:28
2508123
Link
4
|
|
Replying To Aibrean: "The mess into which football has 'developed' is highlighted by the recent report by the Standing Committee on Playing Rules - see link below. The main points are:
• 421 handpasses v 130 kickpasses per game.
• Approx. 82% of kickpasses are uncontested.
• Approx 35% of footpasses go backwards.
• Only 41% of forward kickpasses travel more than 15m.
• 23 passes (kickpasses + handpasses) to the goalkeeper in 2023 championship.
• Only 6.6 high catches per game of which 60% were uncontested.
• Number of attacking marks/game is 2.7
• 64% of kickouts are uncontested.
• In 78% of cases there was no press on the kickout.
So, the current game is what we called long ago 'a kick around' (no marking) except that it is not even a kick around, it's 'a handpass around'.
These are the facts. Next question is - the difficult part - what do we do about it?
https://www.gaa.ie/football/news/statistical-analysis-report-reveals-the-essence-of-modern-gaelic-football/" Aibrean. I have to agree with your comments. Gaelic Football is a hard watch, too much endless passing to avoid taking a chance. It will need a change of culture.
thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1879 - 13/10/2023 11:21:09
2508141
Link
3
|
|
Replying To Aibrean: "The mess into which football has 'developed' is highlighted by the recent report by the Standing Committee on Playing Rules - see link below. The main points are:
• 421 handpasses v 130 kickpasses per game.
• Approx. 82% of kickpasses are uncontested.
• Approx 35% of footpasses go backwards.
• Only 41% of forward kickpasses travel more than 15m.
• 23 passes (kickpasses + handpasses) to the goalkeeper in 2023 championship.
• Only 6.6 high catches per game of which 60% were uncontested.
• Number of attacking marks/game is 2.7
• 64% of kickouts are uncontested.
• In 78% of cases there was no press on the kickout.
So, the current game is what we called long ago 'a kick around' (no marking) except that it is not even a kick around, it's 'a handpass around'.
These are the facts. Next question is - the difficult part - what do we do about it?
https://www.gaa.ie/football/news/statistical-analysis-report-reveals-the-essence-of-modern-gaelic-football/" Tom Smith would be turning in his grave reading that, if he was dead like. It's an ugly ass game now alright, and only certain staunch participants, usually of the younger vintage, can even begin to defend it as a spectacle.
Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 4624 - 13/10/2023 11:41:11
2508146
Link
2
|
|
Replying To Aibrean: "The mess into which football has 'developed' is highlighted by the recent report by the Standing Committee on Playing Rules - see link below. The main points are:
• 421 handpasses v 130 kickpasses per game.
• Approx. 82% of kickpasses are uncontested.
• Approx 35% of footpasses go backwards.
• Only 41% of forward kickpasses travel more than 15m.
• 23 passes (kickpasses + handpasses) to the goalkeeper in 2023 championship.
• Only 6.6 high catches per game of which 60% were uncontested.
• Number of attacking marks/game is 2.7
• 64% of kickouts are uncontested.
• In 78% of cases there was no press on the kickout.
So, the current game is what we called long ago 'a kick around' (no marking) except that it is not even a kick around, it's 'a handpass around'.
These are the facts. Next question is - the difficult part - what do we do about it?
https://www.gaa.ie/football/news/statistical-analysis-report-reveals-the-essence-of-modern-gaelic-football/" You have to identify the why first more so than how. Why has the game changed so much in recent years. How much of it is down to natural evolution and how much to other factors.
Fitness levels are a big thing here, paid managers, coaches etc. Influence from other sports. Basketball soccer rugby aussie rules, all these games have some degree of influence in our game much of the language we use around the game is imported from other sports.
Can we all agree on the game we want to see? Maybe not. There is a lot in the modern game that is very enjoyable, watching teams breaking down a well set defence is enjoyable, variability on kickouts are, how well coached our players are and how adaptable they are to new systems. Skill levels are really good now in terms of playing off both sides etc.
What do we want to see more of, faster game? More contests for the ball, more footpassing, more high fielding, less ball through the hand.
How do we get there?
1. Less players on the field
2. Restrictions on handpassing
3.limits on numbers of players who can defend
4.various rules on the direction the ball must travel
5. Add new ways to score
6. Time Restrictions on possession
Which of these changes the mindset of coaches to play a more traditional game?
Firstly I don't think we should encourage bad play. So why would I want to create a contest for the ball when I have a safer better option, so imo whatever we do should not make players do stupid stuff with the ball,eg hoofing a ball into a 2v1 when there is a better option, so I think it's best to instead attack the side of the game that is most boring, maybe we look at rewarding turnovers in your own half so if you are messing about with the ball (like roscommon) in your own half and get turned over that score is worth 2 or maybe 3 points, I've seen Philip kerr suggest this it's interesting. As a coach I would want to be moving the ball quickly out of there and as an opposition coach I'm going to press more. In my own head I wonder about a 13 man game will that create the space we want to play the ball or will it lead to more defensive game. Rules on players staying in their own half sound good but could be abused without the right punishment to go with breaches.
I've seen a lot of boring football this year at adult level
I've also seen some very entertaining juvenile games having coached a minor team and a county development squad.
Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1746 - 13/10/2023 12:35:51
2508160
Link
2
|
|
With regards gaelic football rule changes, I think the 'greatest impact for the lowest tinkering' is the way to go. If limited to two changes, I would propose to trial the following:
1) Between the two 45s, a player from the team in possession is required to either: 1) receive a "two-line kick pass" - two of four consecutive lines, including both 45s and both 65s - or 2) execute one instead (both not required sequentially).
2) Following a series of passes, the team in possession is required to get the ball across the attacking 45 in "no more than 60-second intervals" and not intentionally play it back again (violation results in a free to the opposition at 'their' defensive 45).
I would leave everything else as is - short kick outs, unlimited handpasses, back passes to the goalkeeper etc.
Well - would this improve the game?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3380 - 13/10/2023 14:37:28
2508194
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Barrowsider: " Replying To Aibrean: "The mess into which football has 'developed' is highlighted by the recent report by the Standing Committee on Playing Rules - see link below. The main points are:
• 421 handpasses v 130 kickpasses per game.
• Approx. 82% of kickpasses are uncontested.
• Approx 35% of footpasses go backwards.
• Only 41% of forward kickpasses travel more than 15m.
• 23 passes (kickpasses + handpasses) to the goalkeeper in 2023 championship.
• Only 6.6 high catches per game of which 60% were uncontested.
• Number of attacking marks/game is 2.7
• 64% of kickouts are uncontested.
• In 78% of cases there was no press on the kickout.
<b>So, the current game is what we called long ago 'a kick around' (no marking) except that it is not even a kick around, it's 'a handpass around'.</b>
<b>These are the facts. Next question is - the difficult part - what do we do about it?
</b>
https://www.gaa.ie/football/news/statistical-analysis-report-reveals-the-essence-of-modern-gaelic-football/"</div>You have to identify the why first more so than how. Why has the game changed so much in recent years. How much of it is down to natural evolution and how much to other factors.
Fitness levels are a big thing here, paid managers, coaches etc. Influence from other sports. Basketball soccer rugby aussie rules, all these games have some degree of influence in our game much of the language we use around the game is imported from other sports.
Can we all agree on the game we want to see? Maybe not. There is a lot in the modern game that is very enjoyable, watching teams breaking down a well set defence is enjoyable, variability on kickouts are, how well coached our players are and how adaptable they are to new systems. Skill levels are really good now in terms of playing off both sides etc.
What do we want to see more of, faster game? More contests for the ball, more footpassing, more high fielding, less ball through the hand.
How do we get there?
1. Less players on the field
2. Restrictions on handpassing
3.limits on numbers of players who can defend
4.various rules on the direction the ball must travel
5. Add new ways to score
6. Time Restrictions on possession
Which of these changes the mindset of coaches to play a more traditional game?
Firstly I don't think we should encourage bad play. So why would I want to create a contest for the ball when I have a safer better option, so imo whatever we do should not make players do stupid stuff with the ball,eg hoofing a ball into a 2v1 when there is a better option, so I think it's best to instead attack the side of the game that is most boring, maybe we look at rewarding turnovers in your own half so if you are messing about with the ball (like roscommon) in your own half and get turned over that score is worth 2 or maybe 3 points, I've seen Philip kerr suggest this it's interesting. As a coach I would want to be moving the ball quickly out of there and as an opposition coach I'm going to press more. In my own head I wonder about a 13 man game will that create the space we want to play the ball or will it lead to more defensive game. Rules on players staying in their own half sound good but could be abused without the right punishment to go with breaches.
I've seen a lot of boring football this year at adult level
I've also seen some very entertaining juvenile games having coached a minor team and a county development squad." Agree that most underage football games I've seen are more entertaining. Tbh the same could be said of hurling too.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 18908 - 13/10/2023 21:09:03
2508270
Link
0
|
|
And yet the most compelling and watched sporting spectacle this year was the All Ireland final.
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 4108 - 13/10/2023 22:49:09
2508283
Link
2
|
|
Replying To Viking66: " Replying To Barrowsider: "[quote=Aibrean: "The mess into which football has 'developed' is highlighted by the recent report by the Standing Committee on Playing Rules - see link below. The main points are:
• 421 handpasses v 130 kickpasses per game.
• Approx. 82% of kickpasses are uncontested.
• Approx 35% of footpasses go backwards.
• Only 41% of forward kickpasses travel more than 15m.
• 23 passes (kickpasses + handpasses) to the goalkeeper in 2023 championship.
• Only 6.6 high catches per game of which 60% were uncontested.
• Number of attacking marks/game is 2.7
• 64% of kickouts are uncontested.
• In 78% of cases there was no press on the kickout.
<b>So, the current game is what we called long ago 'a kick around' (no marking) except that it is not even a kick around, it's 'a handpass around'.</b>
<b>These are the facts. Next question is - the difficult part - what do we do about it?
</b>
https://www.gaa.ie/football/news/statistical-analysis-report-reveals-the-essence-of-modern-gaelic-football/"</div>You have to identify the why first more so than how. Why has the game changed so much in recent years. How much of it is down to natural evolution and how much to other factors.
Fitness levels are a big thing here, paid managers, coaches etc. Influence from other sports. Basketball soccer rugby aussie rules, all these games have some degree of influence in our game much of the language we use around the game is imported from other sports.
Can we all agree on the game we want to see? Maybe not. There is a lot in the modern game that is very enjoyable, watching teams breaking down a well set defence is enjoyable, variability on kickouts are, how well coached our players are and how adaptable they are to new systems. Skill levels are really good now in terms of playing off both sides etc.
What do we want to see more of, faster game? More contests for the ball, more footpassing, more high fielding, less ball through the hand.
How do we get there?
1. Less players on the field
2. Restrictions on handpassing
3.limits on numbers of players who can defend
4.various rules on the direction the ball must travel
5. Add new ways to score
6. Time Restrictions on possession
Which of these changes the mindset of coaches to play a more traditional game?
Firstly I don't think we should encourage bad play. So why would I want to create a contest for the ball when I have a safer better option, so imo whatever we do should not make players do stupid stuff with the ball,eg hoofing a ball into a 2v1 when there is a better option, so I think it's best to instead attack the side of the game that is most boring, maybe we look at rewarding turnovers in your own half so if you are messing about with the ball (like roscommon) in your own half and get turned over that score is worth 2 or maybe 3 points, I've seen Philip kerr suggest this it's interesting. As a coach I would want to be moving the ball quickly out of there and as an opposition coach I'm going to press more. In my own head I wonder about a 13 man game will that create the space we want to play the ball or will it lead to more defensive game. Rules on players staying in their own half sound good but could be abused without the right punishment to go with breaches.
I've seen a lot of boring football this year at adult level
I've also seen some very entertaining juvenile games having coached a minor team and a county development squad." Agree that most underage football games I've seen are more entertaining. Tbh the same could be said of hurling too."]What's the main difference between underage football and adult? Money.
Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1746 - 13/10/2023 23:24:20
2508286
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Barrowsider: " Replying To Viking66: "[quote=Barrowsider: "[quote=Aibrean: "The mess into which football has 'developed' is highlighted by the recent report by the Standing Committee on Playing Rules - see link below. The main points are:
• 421 handpasses v 130 kickpasses per game.
• Approx. 82% of kickpasses are uncontested.
• Approx 35% of footpasses go backwards.
• Only 41% of forward kickpasses travel more than 15m.
• 23 passes (kickpasses + handpasses) to the goalkeeper in 2023 championship.
• Only 6.6 high catches per game of which 60% were uncontested.
• Number of attacking marks/game is 2.7
• 64% of kickouts are uncontested.
• In 78% of cases there was no press on the kickout.
<b>So, the current game is what we called long ago 'a kick around' (no marking) except that it is not even a kick around, it's 'a handpass around'.</b>
<b>These are the facts. Next question is - the difficult part - what do we do about it?
</b>
https://www.gaa.ie/football/news/statistical-analysis-report-reveals-the-essence-of-modern-gaelic-football/"</div>You have to identify the why first more so than how. Why has the game changed so much in recent years. How much of it is down to natural evolution and how much to other factors.
Fitness levels are a big thing here, paid managers, coaches etc. Influence from other sports. Basketball soccer rugby aussie rules, all these games have some degree of influence in our game much of the language we use around the game is imported from other sports.
Can we all agree on the game we want to see? Maybe not. There is a lot in the modern game that is very enjoyable, watching teams breaking down a well set defence is enjoyable, variability on kickouts are, how well coached our players are and how adaptable they are to new systems. Skill levels are really good now in terms of playing off both sides etc.
What do we want to see more of, faster game? More contests for the ball, more footpassing, more high fielding, less ball through the hand.
How do we get there?
1. Less players on the field
2. Restrictions on handpassing
3.limits on numbers of players who can defend
4.various rules on the direction the ball must travel
5. Add new ways to score
6. Time Restrictions on possession
Which of these changes the mindset of coaches to play a more traditional game?
Firstly I don't think we should encourage bad play. So why would I want to create a contest for the ball when I have a safer better option, so imo whatever we do should not make players do stupid stuff with the ball,eg hoofing a ball into a 2v1 when there is a better option, so I think it's best to instead attack the side of the game that is most boring, maybe we look at rewarding turnovers in your own half so if you are messing about with the ball (like roscommon) in your own half and get turned over that score is worth 2 or maybe 3 points, I've seen Philip kerr suggest this it's interesting. As a coach I would want to be moving the ball quickly out of there and as an opposition coach I'm going to press more. In my own head I wonder about a 13 man game will that create the space we want to play the ball or will it lead to more defensive game. Rules on players staying in their own half sound good but could be abused without the right punishment to go with breaches.
I've seen a lot of boring football this year at adult level
I've also seen some very entertaining juvenile games having coached a minor team and a county development squad." Agree that most underage football games I've seen are more entertaining. Tbh the same could be said of hurling too."]What's the main difference between underage football and adult? Money."]I wouldn't say it's money. I'd say the 'need' to win is the bigger differentiator. This leads to teams being set up more conservatively and taking far fewer risks at adult level. At underage, players are allowed to play more freely and the result isn't the be-all and end-all (in most cases). There isn't the same pressure on management. Adult football is results-driven. That unfortunately means a more pragmatic approach in most cases. We can all give out about it, but a manager is not going to do something if he thinks it will cost him the game. We need practical solutions rather than just blaming coaches for not having their players kick the ball into 50/50 contests more regularly. A big part of the issue is how easy it is to retain possession in Gaelic football. A simple handpass over and back etc. We obviously want to see more contests for possession, so I think it has to start there. Rewarding teams for trying to win possession back, further up the pitch.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2744 - 16/10/2023 11:24:22
2508596
Link
0
|
|
Replying To omahant: "With regards gaelic football rule changes, I think the 'greatest impact for the lowest tinkering' is the way to go. If limited to two changes, I would propose to trial the following:
1) Between the two 45s, a player from the team in possession is required to either: 1) receive a "two-line kick pass" - two of four consecutive lines, including both 45s and both 65s - or 2) execute one instead (both not required sequentially).
2) Following a series of passes, the team in possession is required to get the ball across the attacking 45 in "no more than 60-second intervals" and not intentionally play it back again (violation results in a free to the opposition at 'their' defensive 45).
I would leave everything else as is - short kick outs, unlimited handpasses, back passes to the goalkeeper etc.
Well - would this improve the game?" No. Enough rules without adding more silly rules. Players want to find their own men when passing the ball, enough pressure with having to worry about kicking over 2 lines or timing themselves in possession. Teams don't have to copy what other teams do, if teams are brave and push up on kick outs and or leave 3 good forwards in their own 21 things will change on their own.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2590 - 16/10/2023 12:05:13
2508608
Link
2
|
|
Replying To Saynothing: "No. Enough rules without adding more silly rules. Players want to find their own men when passing the ball, enough pressure with having to worry about kicking over 2 lines or timing themselves in possession. Teams don't have to copy what other teams do, if teams are brave and push up on kick outs and or leave 3 good forwards in their own 21 things will change on their own." "Brave" and "change on their own" with your fingers crossed, I suppose?
With my change, the game would be returned to "foot" ball, with the ball required to be kicked 'in or out' of a little more than the middle third of the field (middle 55 of 145 metres).
The clock limit for entering the attacking third of the field and shooting should be set at a modestly liberal level, just to move the game along, not to cause undue pressure (maybe, make it one combined 90 to 120 seconds).
With everything else left as is (except, get rid of the mark), there would still be plenty of scope for tactics - just a more balanced blend of short hand passes and long kicks.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3380 - 16/10/2023 15:00:50
2508669
Link
0
|
|
It's called football Des, blah blah blah. Why don't basketball players carry baskets while your at it. We could change American football to 'American carry ball' because that's mostly what they do. The hand pass has always been part of the game but we must be the only sport/game in the world where fans call for an end to its fundamentals when an innovative manager comes along or one or two traditional counties aren't getting their usual trophy formalities every year. It's very easy to forget the God awful displays from the 'good old days' when team possession stats must've been like a division 3 club side lining out the morning after Paddy's Day. Tactics are there to be beaten, that's where managers earn their praise. But I guess it's a lot easier to copy or complain.
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2627 - 16/10/2023 17:40:56
2508711
Link
0
|
|
Replying To omahant: ""Brave" and "change on their own" with your fingers crossed, I suppose?
With my change, the game would be returned to "foot" ball, with the ball required to be kicked 'in or out' of a little more than the middle third of the field (middle 55 of 145 metres).
The clock limit for entering the attacking third of the field and shooting should be set at a modestly liberal level, just to move the game along, not to cause undue pressure (maybe, make it one combined 90 to 120 seconds).
With everything else left as is (except, get rid of the mark), there would still be plenty of scope for tactics - just a more balanced blend of short hand passes and long kicks." You could of course ban handpassing. Kicks only.
That would eliminate about 80% of players!
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2558 - 16/10/2023 19:00:05
2508726
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Seanfanbocht: "You could of course ban handpassing. Kicks only.
That would eliminate about 80% of players!" Your idea mocks a serious discussion.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3380 - 19/10/2023 01:03:52
2509159
Link
1
|
|
Replying To BarneyGrant: "And yet the most compelling and watched sporting spectacle this year was the All Ireland final." The only reason it was 'compelling' was because of the closeness of the scores and maybe the endeavour of the players. It was the usual hand-passing disaster and ultra conservative (translates as 'boring') approach of both teams.
And 'most watched' only indicates that people expected a good game.
Games which feature 3 times as many hand-passes as kicks can never be 'compelling'.
Aibrean (Kerry) - Posts: 360 - 19/10/2023 11:04:13
2509190
Link
1
|
|
Replying To Aibrean: "The only reason it was 'compelling' was because of the closeness of the scores and maybe the endeavour of the players. It was the usual hand-passing disaster and ultra conservative (translates as 'boring') approach of both teams.
And 'most watched' only indicates that people expected a good game.
Games which feature 3 times as many hand-passes as kicks can never be 'compelling'." There were 3 times more passes than kicks for a reason. The GAA players now are over trained and can cover more ground in a game than any other sport. So now the running game of GAA has fit players who hand pass because it doesn't break their stride. Before elite fitness came in the players could pick out kick passes as the ball travels faster than any player and still does. Elite fitness is a factor.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2590 - 19/10/2023 11:26:26
2509203
Link
2
|
|
Replying To Saynothing: "There were 3 times more passes than kicks for a reason. The GAA players now are over trained and can cover more ground in a game than any other sport. So now the running game of GAA has fit players who hand pass because it doesn't break their stride. Before elite fitness came in the players could pick out kick passes as the ball travels faster than any player and still does. Elite fitness is a factor." It does not really matter what the 'reason' is.
A huge majority agree that the domination of hand-passing is disastrous and that 'something' must be done to change things.
I do concede that exploring the 'reason' will help to find the 'something'.
Aibrean (Kerry) - Posts: 360 - 19/10/2023 12:40:39
2509224
Link
2
|
|
Replying To Aibrean: "The only reason it was 'compelling' was because of the closeness of the scores and maybe the endeavour of the players. It was the usual hand-passing disaster and ultra conservative (translates as 'boring') approach of both teams.
And 'most watched' only indicates that people expected a good game.
Games which feature 3 times as many hand-passes as kicks can never be 'compelling'." It was a good game. Perhaps for some of us more than others :-)
Seriously, though, there were lots of good games during the year. Perhaps not classic football but "compelling." Kerry v Derry being another. Some of the Connacht games, Armagh/Galway, just off top of my head.
I'm not huge into rugby but some of the games I have watched have been compelling in same way, even though I've seen purists claim that they were poor for one reason or another. Dublin or Kerry destroying teams in the past were often technical master classes, but hardly edge of seat stuff.
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 4108 - 19/10/2023 14:03:16
2509244
Link
1
|
|
Replying To BarneyGrant: "It was a good game. Perhaps for some of us more than others :-)
Seriously, though, there were lots of good games during the year. Perhaps not classic football but "compelling." Kerry v Derry being another. Some of the Connacht games, Armagh/Galway, just off top of my head.
I'm not huge into rugby but some of the games I have watched have been compelling in same way, even though I've seen purists claim that they were poor for one reason or another. Dublin or Kerry destroying teams in the past were often technical master classes, but hardly edge of seat stuff." Tribalism and close games will continue to attract the crowds.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2558 - 19/10/2023 16:21:41
2509281
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Aibrean: "The only reason it was 'compelling' was because of the closeness of the scores and maybe the endeavour of the players. It was the usual hand-passing disaster and ultra conservative (translates as 'boring') approach of both teams.
And 'most watched' only indicates that people expected a good game.
Games which feature 3 times as many hand-passes as kicks can never be 'compelling'." The closeness and importance of the game was a big factor, but I wouldn't agree that it was the usual safety-first conservative type of game.
This year's All-Ireland had a huge amount of turnovers, and a lot of contests for possession. This added to the excitement as we didn't have to endure teams holding possession for 2 or 3 minutes at a time.
The slippery conditions were part of the reason, but the huge intensity brought by both teams was another. There was enormous pressure put on the ball carrier around the middle of the field.
It was difficult for either team to hold on to the ball for too long, which made for a much more engaging contest.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2744 - 19/10/2023 16:40:46
2509286
Link
0
|