National Forum

Provincial Championships 2024

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Replying To Whammo86:  "The issue isn't just about differing numbers, it's also about differing quality.

I don't really think it essential but I can get behind Provincial champions being included in the All Ireland as a nod to tradition and to retain some linkage. Outside of that I don't think they should play much part. I really hate the situation that a team can miss out on an All Ireland spot because of results in a Provincial championship that they weren't competing in."
As I said earlier
Merit not Geography!

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1960 - 13/01/2024 11:12:33    2519965

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All counties produce 1 county champion, regardless of county championship structure. All provincial championships produce 1 provincial winner, regardless of seeding and the number of counties. There is a fair argument for provincial winners only qualifying through the provinces.
Exiting the provincial championships and going straight into the All-Ireland group stage takes away jeopardy. Ideally counties falling at the provincial hurdle would at least contest a qualifying round. Win: go to All-Ireland group stage. Lose: go to Tailteann.
Possibly the Division 1 winner should be guaranteed an All-Ireland spot also. The Division 4 winners upwards at least a qualifying round spot.

EXAMPLE USING LAST YEAR'S LEAGUE AND CHAMPIONSHIP:
Last year's provincial winners: Derry, Dublin, Kerry and Galway.
Division 1 winner: Mayo
2022 Tailteann winner: Westmeath.
Division 4 winner: Sligo

All-Ireland automatic qualifiers: Derry, Dublin, Kerry, Galway, Mayo and Westmeath. (6 counties)
All-Ireland qualifying round or bye: Roscommon, Tyrone, Monaghan, Armagh, Donegal, Louth, Cork, Kildare, Meath, Cavan, Fermanagh, Clare, Limerick, Down, Offaly, Antrim and Sligo. 17 counties for 10 places on this occasion, meaning the highest 3 ranked counties can get bye to the group stage. The qualifying round could see the higher 7 drawn at home against the lower 7.
For this to work, the qualifying round would have to be two weeks after the provincial finals, giving provincial runners-up two weeks to recover.

Weekend -8: NFL Round 1
Weekend -7: NFL Round 2
Weekend -6: NFL Round 3
Weekend -5: NFL Round 4
WEEKEND OFF.
Weekend -4: NFL Round 5
Weekend -3: NFL Round 6
Weekend -2: NFL Round 7
Weekend -1: Allianz Football League finals.
WEEKEND OFF.
Weekend 1: Connacht and Munster quarter-finals. Leinster and Ulster preliminary round.
Weekend 2: Connacht and Munster semi-finals. Leinster and Ulster quarter-finals.
Weekend 3: Leinster and Ulster semi-finals.
Weekend 4: Connacht and Munster finals.
Weekend 5: Leinster and Ulster finals.
WEEKEND OFF.
Weekend 6: All-Ireland qualifying round.
Weekend 7: All-Ireland and Tailteann group stage Round 1.
Weekend 8: All-Ireland and Tailteann group stage Round 2.
WEEKEND OFF.
Weekend 9: All-Ireland and Tailteann group stage Round 3.
Weekend 10: All-Ireland and Tailteann Preliminary Quarter-finals.
Weekend 11: All-Ireland and Tailteann Quarter-finals.
WEEKEND OFF.
Weekend 12: All-Ireland and Tailteann Semi-finals.
WEEKEND OFF.
Weekend 13: Saturday: All-Ireland Junior Football Championship Final and Tailteann Cup Final.
Sunday: All-Ireland Senior Football Championship Final.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8291 - 13/01/2024 13:28:11    2519978

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "As I said earlier
Merit not Geography!"
I'm in firm agreement with you alright.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 13/01/2024 13:42:19    2519981

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Dispersion of guest teams, improves merit-based qualification and removes geographical limitation.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2895 - 14/01/2024 03:54:21    2520079

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Replying To omahant:  "Dispersion of guest teams, improves merit-based qualification and removes geographical limitation."
Why not just have a national based championship achieve that. We're a small country there isn't any reasonable constraint to us having a national championship.

In International football the regional championships aren't all played in the same window, USA or Mexico don't have to forgo their own confederation's championship to take part in the Copa America.

I just don't really get how it'd be workable, simple, sensible and even desirable to have guest teams.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 14/01/2024 13:38:34    2520105

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Why not just have a national based championship achieve that. We're a small country there isn't any reasonable constraint to us having a national championship.

In International football the regional championships aren't all played in the same window, USA or Mexico don't have to forgo their own confederation's championship to take part in the Copa America.

I just don't really get how it'd be workable, simple, sensible and even desirable to have guest teams."
A national championship requires provincial councils accepting provincial championships as standalone championships. The All-Ireland 16 then would be a more straightforward structure. 4th placed teams entering relegation playoffs. The Tailteann winner being promoted.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8291 - 14/01/2024 14:04:52    2520110

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Why not just have a national based championship achieve that. We're a small country there isn't any reasonable constraint to us having a national championship.

In International football the regional championships aren't all played in the same window, USA or Mexico don't have to forgo their own confederation's championship to take part in the Copa America.

I just don't really get how it'd be workable, simple, sensible and even desirable to have guest teams."
I suppose I'm just bowing to tradition. Perhaps guest teams within the provincial structures may feel less sterile than inter-provincial qualifier ties - would Dublin fight harder to hold onto its Leinster title against Tyrone?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2895 - 14/01/2024 15:00:08    2520123

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Replying To omahant:  "I suppose I'm just bowing to tradition. Perhaps guest teams within the provincial structures may feel less sterile than inter-provincial qualifier ties - would Dublin fight harder to hold onto its Leinster title against Tyrone?"
The likes of Offaly and Longford value provincial rivalries and trying to win their opening Leinster championship round match, than joining a neighbouring provincial championship to make up the numbers or balance the numbers across provinces.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8291 - 14/01/2024 17:00:51    2520162

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Why not just have a national based championship achieve that. We're a small country there isn't any reasonable constraint to us having a national championship.

In International football the regional championships aren't all played in the same window, USA or Mexico don't have to forgo their own confederation's championship to take part in the Copa America.

I just don't really get how it'd be workable, simple, sensible and even desirable to have guest teams."
I'm also having everyone start play in their own province - best 4 in each go head-to-head - e.g. Galway v Mayo, winner to Connacht SF, loser to Ulster or Munster QF.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2895 - 14/01/2024 17:50:33    2520168

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The likes of Offaly and Longford value provincial rivalries and trying to win their opening Leinster championship round match, than joining a neighbouring provincial championship to make up the numbers or balance the numbers across provinces."
A silly proposal 2 or 3 years ago to move Counties to other "Provinces" was bet out of sight at the Soecial Congress.
Got about 10% vote if I remember correctly.

We have a system now, it's only 1 year in operation so turn ye're imaginations to something else and let it be.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1960 - 14/01/2024 18:44:23    2520174

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "A silly proposal 2 or 3 years ago to move Counties to other "Provinces" was bet out of sight at the Soecial Congress.
Got about 10% vote if I remember correctly.

We have a system now, it's only 1 year in operation so turn ye're imaginations to something else and let it be."
Roscommon lost the Galway and went straight into the All-Ireland group stage. 12 out of 16 teams starting in the group stage had lost their previous championship match. Counties are more falling into the All-Ireland that on an upward trajectory. A minor tweak would see 14 counties playoff for the final 7 placed available.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8291 - 14/01/2024 21:01:21    2520188

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Replying To legendzxix:  "A national championship requires provincial councils accepting provincial championships as standalone championships. The All-Ireland 16 then would be a more straightforward structure. 4th placed teams entering relegation playoffs. The Tailteann winner being promoted."
Proposal B from a few years ago was close to getting through.

It got 51% of votes. There was a big issue with the actual championship that was being proposed and the 5,3,1,1 allocations of All Ireland places being distributed across divisions and there being an awkward looking 2nd tier. I think people wrongly gave up on the decoupling of Provincials idea a little prematurely and with a more sensible All Ireland championship format it was one that might have gotten through even without provincial councils support.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 16/01/2024 10:03:38    2520404

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Proposal B from a few years ago was close to getting through.

It got 51% of votes. There was a big issue with the actual championship that was being proposed and the 5,3,1,1 allocations of All Ireland places being distributed across divisions and there being an awkward looking 2nd tier. I think people wrongly gave up on the decoupling of Provincials idea a little prematurely and with a more sensible All Ireland championship format it was one that might have gotten through even without provincial councils support."
I think with a lot of these votes, the issues are not properly critiqued/analysed - the herd mentality leads to conclusions.

I wasn't a fan of Proposal B - but maybe a compromise there could have been having the top 3 divisions as equal rank/mixed quality (Groups 1A, 1B, 1C, with a lowest division "2"), leading to a 3-3-3-1 AI KO (or 5-5-5-1, with top 15 seeded on record).

Separately, given the inter-county time squeeze, maybe it's time to shorten the league - 3 divs of 10-10-12 - each div split into 2 groups, so 5v5 or 5 game round-robin per team.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2895 - 16/01/2024 14:01:24    2520463

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Replying To omahant:  "I think with a lot of these votes, the issues are not properly critiqued/analysed - the herd mentality leads to conclusions.

I wasn't a fan of Proposal B - but maybe a compromise there could have been having the top 3 divisions as equal rank/mixed quality (Groups 1A, 1B, 1C, with a lowest division "2"), leading to a 3-3-3-1 AI KO (or 5-5-5-1, with top 15 seeded on record).

Separately, given the inter-county time squeeze, maybe it's time to shorten the league - 3 divs of 10-10-12 - each div split into 2 groups, so 5v5 or 5 game round-robin per team."
I think the answer was just 2 championships with 2 groups of 8 and none of the letting lower divisions skip ahead into the knockout rounds.

The championship should be more like the National league, it's not appropriate to have only an 8 team All Ireland but a 16 team All Ireland could make sense.

As an Antrim fan I'd rather us win our way up to a top tier by being consistent in a proper 2nd tier competition.

There are 2 big issues with my idea.

It's tough to keep the 2nd tier meaningful for all teams up to the end of the competition.

It's tough to design the competition to have a good and fair flow of teams between tiers but to also make sure that the prestige of winning the competition isn't diminished.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 16/01/2024 17:05:09    2520514

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We have a near perfect system now if we are having 2 tiers. Personally I think we need 3 tiers like most counties have. Had a slight issue with beaten provincial finalists being seeded,because of the disparity in county numbers in the different provinces. I would go to totally seeded draws for Provincial Championships, based on final League placings. In Ulster preliminary 8 plays 9. Winner then plays 1, then 2 v 7, 3 v 6 and 4 v 5. For semi final highest seed left plays lowest seed left. In Munster 3 v 6, 4 v 5 Same for other 2 provinces. If a Div. 4 team gets to a Provincial Final, they will have earned the right to keep a lower Division 2 side out of the Sam Maguire. In the Sam and Tailteain keep the preliminary quarter finals. Means few dead rubbers. Finishing first means a week off and finishing second gets a home prelim. quarter. 3 group winners made last year's semis with only my own county bucking the trend and that only after a penalty shoot out.

ORIELMAN85 (Monaghan) - Posts: 387 - 16/01/2024 17:22:49    2520518

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Proposal B from a few years ago was close to getting through.

It got 51% of votes. There was a big issue with the actual championship that was being proposed and the 5,3,1,1 allocations of All Ireland places being distributed across divisions and there being an awkward looking 2nd tier. I think people wrongly gave up on the decoupling of Provincials idea a little prematurely and with a more sensible All Ireland championship format it was one that might have gotten through even without provincial councils support."
Within the current structure, should provincial winners be rewarded with an extra home game? The Tailteann winner could also be rewarded an extra home game. The 3 provincial runners-up not drawn in the same group as the Tailteann winner could also be rewarded with an extra home game.
In the Tailteann Cup, the 5 teams who miss out on the preliminary quarter-finals could be given a mercy consolation prize of an extra home game in the Tailteann Cup of the following year. The 3 remaining reward of home games in the Tailteann could be for the top 3 teams based on the league ranking. A consolation prize for the 3 teams who missed out on the All-Ireland qualification.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8291 - 16/01/2024 17:42:40    2520521

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Replying To ORIELMAN85:  "We have a near perfect system now if we are having 2 tiers. Personally I think we need 3 tiers like most counties have. Had a slight issue with beaten provincial finalists being seeded,because of the disparity in county numbers in the different provinces. I would go to totally seeded draws for Provincial Championships, based on final League placings. In Ulster preliminary 8 plays 9. Winner then plays 1, then 2 v 7, 3 v 6 and 4 v 5. For semi final highest seed left plays lowest seed left. In Munster 3 v 6, 4 v 5 Same for other 2 provinces. If a Div. 4 team gets to a Provincial Final, they will have earned the right to keep a lower Division 2 side out of the Sam Maguire. In the Sam and Tailteain keep the preliminary quarter finals. Means few dead rubbers. Finishing first means a week off and finishing second gets a home prelim. quarter. 3 group winners made last year's semis with only my own county bucking the trend and that only after a penalty shoot out."
A straightforward ranking table in football is a combination of championship and league performance. An example based on last year's championship progress and league ranking.

ULSTER PRELIMINARY ROUND
Cavan v Fermanagh
QUARTER-FINALS
Bowl A: Monaghan, Derry, Tyrone and Armagh.
Bowl B: Donegal, Down, Antrim and Preliminary Round winner.
SEMI-FINALS
Bowl A: 1. Monaghan or QF opponent and 2. Derry or QF opponent.
Bowl B: 3. Tyrone or QF opponent and 4. Armagh or QF opponent.

LEINSTER PRELIMINARY ROUND
Bowl A: Laois, Wexford and Carlow.
Bowl B: Offaly, Longford and Wicklow.
QUARTER-FINALS
Bowl A: Dublin, Louth, Kildare and Westmeath.
Bowl B: Meath and 3 Preliminary Round winners.
SEMI-FINALS
Bowl A: 1. Dublin or QF opponent and 2. Kildare or QF opponent.
Bowl B: 3. Louth or QF opponent and 4. Westmeath or QF opponent.

MUNSTER QUARTER-FINALS
Bowl A: Clare and Limerick.
Bowl B: Tipperary and Waterford.
SEMI-FINALS
Bowl A: 1. Kerry and 2. Cork.
Bowl B: 2 Quarter-final winners.

CONNACHT QUARTER-FINALS
London v Galway*
New York v Mayo*
Sligo** v Leitrim**
SEMI-FINALS
Bowl A: 1. Mayo or New York and 2. Galway or London.
Bowl B: Roscommon** and Sligo or Leitrim.

* Rotation of counties taking on London or New York retained.
** Roscommon as highest remaining seed given bye to semi-final.

Meath lost out on an All-Ireland place last year because Sligo got a lucky draw in a different provincial championship. It's an argument for all provinces to have an agreed seeding. In that scenario, Sligo would then have one of the top 2 seeds on their side of the draw. If Sligo get to a Connacht final in that scenario, they are there on fairer merit.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8291 - 16/01/2024 17:54:05    2520525

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Replying To legendzxix:  "A straightforward ranking table in football is a combination of championship and league performance. An example based on last year's championship progress and league ranking.

ULSTER PRELIMINARY ROUND
Cavan v Fermanagh
QUARTER-FINALS
Bowl A: Monaghan, Derry, Tyrone and Armagh.
Bowl B: Donegal, Down, Antrim and Preliminary Round winner.
SEMI-FINALS
Bowl A: 1. Monaghan or QF opponent and 2. Derry or QF opponent.
Bowl B: 3. Tyrone or QF opponent and 4. Armagh or QF opponent.

LEINSTER PRELIMINARY ROUND
Bowl A: Laois, Wexford and Carlow.
Bowl B: Offaly, Longford and Wicklow.
QUARTER-FINALS
Bowl A: Dublin, Louth, Kildare and Westmeath.
Bowl B: Meath and 3 Preliminary Round winners.
SEMI-FINALS
Bowl A: 1. Dublin or QF opponent and 2. Kildare or QF opponent.
Bowl B: 3. Louth or QF opponent and 4. Westmeath or QF opponent.

MUNSTER QUARTER-FINALS
Bowl A: Clare and Limerick.
Bowl B: Tipperary and Waterford.
SEMI-FINALS
Bowl A: 1. Kerry and 2. Cork.
Bowl B: 2 Quarter-final winners.

CONNACHT QUARTER-FINALS
London v Galway*
New York v Mayo*
Sligo** v Leitrim**
SEMI-FINALS
Bowl A: 1. Mayo or New York and 2. Galway or London.
Bowl B: Roscommon** and Sligo or Leitrim.

* Rotation of counties taking on London or New York retained.
** Roscommon as highest remaining seed given bye to semi-final.

Meath lost out on an All-Ireland place last year because Sligo got a lucky draw in a different provincial championship. It's an argument for all provinces to have an agreed seeding. In that scenario, Sligo would then have one of the top 2 seeds on their side of the draw. If Sligo get to a Connacht final in that scenario, they are there on fairer merit."
I was wondering if Orielman's re-seeding after each round would give teams in the league more incentive?
As you have it, a surprise Ulster QF loss by Monaghan to the Prelim winner, would place the latter in Bowl A for the SFs. That said, splitting teams into your two bowls for a "draw" better rewards weak teams after one upset win (that is, re-seeding after each round would give the weakest teams a mountain to climb) and creates some "luck" excitement. All said, teams could avoid that "mountain" by getting better league results, so I prefer re-seeding overall.

Finally, how do you combine Championship and League performance for the overall ranking - it seems the league position is a tie breaker for going out in the same championship round?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2895 - 16/01/2024 20:40:23    2520561

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Replying To omahant:  "I was wondering if Orielman's re-seeding after each round would give teams in the league more incentive?
As you have it, a surprise Ulster QF loss by Monaghan to the Prelim winner, would place the latter in Bowl A for the SFs. That said, splitting teams into your two bowls for a "draw" better rewards weak teams after one upset win (that is, re-seeding after each round would give the weakest teams a mountain to climb) and creates some "luck" excitement. All said, teams could avoid that "mountain" by getting better league results, so I prefer re-seeding overall.

Finally, how do you combine Championship and League performance for the overall ranking - it seems the league position is a tie breaker for going out in the same championship round?"
How to combine a Championship and League performance for the overall ranking:
1 - Dublin - All-Ireland - Winner - League 7
2 - Kerry - All-Ireland - Runners-up - League 5
3 - Monaghan - All-Ireland - Semi-final - League 6
4 - Derry - All-Ireland - Semi-final - League 8
5 - Mayo - All-Ireland - Quarter-final - League 1
6 - Tyrone - All-Ireland - Quarter-final - League 4
7 - Armagh - All-Ireland - Quarter-final - League 9
8 - Cork - All-Ireland - Quarter-final - League 12
9 - Galway - All-Ireland - Pre-Quarter-final - League 2
10 - Roscommon - All-Ireland - Pre-Quarter-final - League 3
11 - Donegal - All-Ireland - Pre-Quarter-final - League 10
12 - Kildare - All-Ireland - Pre-Quarter-final - League 13
13 - Louth - All-Ireland - Group 4th - League 11
14 - Clare - All-Ireland - Group 4th - League 17
15 - Westmeath - All-Ireland - Group 4th - League 20
16 - Sligo - All-Ireland - Group 4th - League 23
17 - Meath - Tailteann - Winner - League 14
18 - Down - Tailteann - Runners-up - League 19
19 - Antrim - Tailteann - Semi-final - League 22
20 - Laois - Tailteann - Semi-final - League 27
21 - Cavan - Tailteann - Quarter-final - League 15
22 - Limerick - Tailteann - Quarter-final - League 18
23 - Wexford - Tailteann - Quarter-final - League 29
24 - Carlow - Tailteann - Quarter-final - League 30
25 - Fermanagh - Tailteann - Pre-Quarter-final - League 16
26 - Offaly - Tailteann - Pre-Quarter-final - League 21
27 - Longford - Tailteann - Pre-Quarter-final - League 25
28 - Tipperary - Tailteann - Group 3rd - League 26
29 - Wicklow - Tailteann - Group 4th - League 24
30 - Leitrim - Tailteann - Group 4th - League 28
31 - Waterford - Tailteann - Group 4th - League 31
32 - London - Tailteann - Group 4th - League 32

The provincial draws take place in October. It doesn't seem as if that is going to change. A championship and league ranking table is a reflection of the year. Teams can move up and down every year depending on performance in both. It provides a fair enough seeding for each province to have a balanced draw.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8291 - 16/01/2024 21:44:08    2520576

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think the answer was just 2 championships with 2 groups of 8 and none of the letting lower divisions skip ahead into the knockout rounds.

The championship should be more like the National league, it's not appropriate to have only an 8 team All Ireland but a 16 team All Ireland could make sense.

As an Antrim fan I'd rather us win our way up to a top tier by being consistent in a proper 2nd tier competition.

There are 2 big issues with my idea.

It's tough to keep the 2nd tier meaningful for all teams up to the end of the competition.

It's tough to design the competition to have a good and fair flow of teams between tiers but to also make sure that the prestige of winning the competition isn't diminished."
To enhance "2nd tier meaningful" as well as "fair flow of teams between tiers" - perhaps teams could play an 8v8 schedule in each tier. Then, when one group outperforms the other, they could claim more of the KO berths (say, top 10 of 16 to the Tier 1 KO, with 7v10 & 8v9 in Prelim QFs).

If the Tier 1 bottom 6 merged with the Tier 2 top 10, you could have a mouthwatering Tier 2 KO (11v26, 17v20 etc in the Rd of 16). With 6 of the QF 8 (incl 2 Promotion/Stay Up Finals between 4 QF losers) going up or staying up, there would be plenty of ebb & flo between tiers.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2895 - 16/01/2024 21:45:36    2520577

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