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Don't know how many here have seen or been asked to fill in the major survey that's currently doing the rounds, on the proposed integration between the GAA, LGFA, and the Camogie Association.
It asks what benefits do you see coming down the line as the result of integration, if or when it happens.
To my mind, there would be clear, obvious, and fairly immediate benefits for both LGFA and Camogie. But I honestly can't think of even a single real benefit for the GAA. All I foresee is a greater drain on GAA resources, and greater demands on those already involved in administration in the GAA rather than either of the other two organisations.
One of the questions is along the lines of "if/when integration happens, would you be more likely/less likely/stay the same as regards being involved?". Had to consider that myself for the first time, and hand on heart, as one who's highly involved in GAA administration, realised I'd probably be less likely to stay involved if facing the the prospect of workload doubling or even tripling.
Am I being overly pessimistic, or can anybody express a different view, and maybe suggest what benefits for the GAA there might actually be, that I just haven't thought of myself?
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2262 - 05/08/2023 23:16:41
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Don't know how many here have seen or been asked to fill in the major survey that's currently doing the rounds, on the proposed integration between the GAA, LGFA, and the Camogie Association.
It asks what benefits do you see coming down the line as the result of integration, if or when it happens.
To my mind, there would be clear, obvious, and fairly immediate benefits for both LGFA and Camogie. But I honestly can't think of even a single real benefit for the GAA. All I foresee is a greater drain on GAA resources, and greater demands on those already involved in administration in the GAA rather than either of the other two organisations.
One of the questions is along the lines of "if/when integration happens, would you be more likely/less likely/stay the same as regards being involved?". Had to consider that myself for the first time, and hand on heart, as one who's highly involved in GAA administration, realised I'd probably be less likely to stay involved if facing the the prospect of workload doubling or even tripling.
Am I being overly pessimistic, or can anybody express a different view, and maybe suggest what benefits for the GAA there might actually be, that I just haven't thought of myself?" i think yoU are being overly pessimistic
I think integration has to happen and yes it will be a positive for the GAA..
It reduces duplication of similar/same work done by some officer roles. i dont see how it means more work on those involved in admin in GAA compared to camogie or ladies football.
promotion of the sports is better and stronger when you have 1 organisation not 3
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3524 - 06/08/2023 11:06:39
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Don't know how many here have seen or been asked to fill in the major survey that's currently doing the rounds, on the proposed integration between the GAA, LGFA, and the Camogie Association.
It asks what benefits do you see coming down the line as the result of integration, if or when it happens.
To my mind, there would be clear, obvious, and fairly immediate benefits for both LGFA and Camogie. But I honestly can't think of even a single real benefit for the GAA. All I foresee is a greater drain on GAA resources, and greater demands on those already involved in administration in the GAA rather than either of the other two organisations.
One of the questions is along the lines of "if/when integration happens, would you be more likely/less likely/stay the same as regards being involved?". Had to consider that myself for the first time, and hand on heart, as one who's highly involved in GAA administration, realised I'd probably be less likely to stay involved if facing the the prospect of workload doubling or even tripling.
Am I being overly pessimistic, or can anybody express a different view, and maybe suggest what benefits for the GAA there might actually be, that I just haven't thought of myself?" Got mine during week. I said that I thought that the LGFA and camogs had forgotten why they had set up independently in first place. Games have thrived under them. Separate but equal sometimes works!
Also said that LGFA has failed to defend integrity of women's football against those attempting to have biological males involved, and that I would fear that this may become a Trojan horse within GAA as a whole after integration.
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2660 - 06/08/2023 11:07:14
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "Got mine during week. I said that I thought that the LGFA and camogs had forgotten why they had set up independently in first place. Games have thrived under them. Separate but equal sometimes works!
Also said that LGFA has failed to defend integrity of women's football against those attempting to have biological males involved, and that I would fear that this may become a Trojan horse within GAA as a whole after integration." Yep there are tens of thousands of people transitioning to female so they can play Ladies gaelic football.
Get a bit of sense Barney.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1464 - 06/08/2023 11:17:02
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Replying To KillingFields: "i think yoU are being overly pessimistic
I think integration has to happen and yes it will be a positive for the GAA..
It reduces duplication of similar/same work done by some officer roles. i dont see how it means more work on those involved in admin in GAA compared to camogie or ladies football.
promotion of the sports is better and stronger when you have 1 organisation not 3" Aware that removal of duplication of similar work across the Associations is often put forward as a 'benefit', but it's actually precisely the kind of 'benefit' that I'd question.
Take any role in a normal club structure - let's say Registrar. Currently there'd be one person looking after registration & membership for all GAA players, another person doing exactly the same for camogie players, and another doing it for ladies football players.
If you remove the duplication and combine the roles into one, then one person would have far more to do then than they would have had to do up to that point.
Treasurer would be another. Instead of one person just looking after all the income and expenditure for the GAA club, they'd then have to do the same for money brought in by and bills faced by the camogie and ladies football wings of the club as well.
And since you mention promotion of the games, any single club PRO would face a big increase in workload too if they were to post equally about all fixtures/results/other events related to hurling, football, camogie and ladies football, instead of just whichever ones they're covering now.
Conscious of course you could create "assistant" roles for all these positions - e.g. main Registrar could look all the GAA players, and Asst. Registrar could do the same for female players in the club. But then you wouldn't really be removing duplication of the role at all.
Anyway, that's how I foresee significantly increased workload for many of the volunteers already involved. If you or anybody else can explain to me how it wouldn't actually out this way, I'm genuinely hugely interested to learn.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2262 - 06/08/2023 12:11:20
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Don't know how many here have seen or been asked to fill in the major survey that's currently doing the rounds, on the proposed integration between the GAA, LGFA, and the Camogie Association.
It asks what benefits do you see coming down the line as the result of integration, if or when it happens.
To my mind, there would be clear, obvious, and fairly immediate benefits for both LGFA and Camogie. But I honestly can't think of even a single real benefit for the GAA. All I foresee is a greater drain on GAA resources, and greater demands on those already involved in administration in the GAA rather than either of the other two organisations.
One of the questions is along the lines of "if/when integration happens, would you be more likely/less likely/stay the same as regards being involved?". Had to consider that myself for the first time, and hand on heart, as one who's highly involved in GAA administration, realised I'd probably be less likely to stay involved if facing the the prospect of workload doubling or even tripling.
Am I being overly pessimistic, or can anybody express a different view, and maybe suggest what benefits for the GAA there might actually be, that I just haven't thought of myself?" The questionnaire is very leading and biased towards the integration…
All I can see is a drain on resources from the the GAA and more workload on the usual volunteers carrying the can…
It's equality gone mad in my eyes!!!
The big losers are the GAA
farneygossip (Monaghan) - Posts: 30 - 06/08/2023 12:47:46
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Aware that removal of duplication of similar work across the Associations is often put forward as a 'benefit', but it's actually precisely the kind of 'benefit' that I'd question.
Take any role in a normal club structure - let's say Registrar. Currently there'd be one person looking after registration & membership for all GAA players, another person doing exactly the same for camogie players, and another doing it for ladies football players.
If you remove the duplication and combine the roles into one, then one person would have far more to do then than they would have had to do up to that point.
Treasurer would be another. Instead of one person just looking after all the income and expenditure for the GAA club, they'd then have to do the same for money brought in by and bills faced by the camogie and ladies football wings of the club as well.
And since you mention promotion of the games, any single club PRO would face a big increase in workload too if they were to post equally about all fixtures/results/other events related to hurling, football, camogie and ladies football, instead of just whichever ones they're covering now.
Conscious of course you could create "assistant" roles for all these positions - e.g. main Registrar could look all the GAA players, and Asst. Registrar could do the same for female players in the club. But then you wouldn't really be removing duplication of the role at all.
Anyway, that's how I foresee significantly increased workload for many of the volunteers already involved. If you or anybody else can explain to me how it wouldn't actually out this way, I'm genuinely hugely interested to learn." So what no integration of course will be issues early on but long term it is good solution can't see why soke are negative .Unless people don't want to help women's game is that it?It can beneficial long term
Gaaforlife2023 (Longford) - Posts: 224 - 06/08/2023 13:03:50
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Aware that removal of duplication of similar work across the Associations is often put forward as a 'benefit', but it's actually precisely the kind of 'benefit' that I'd question.
Take any role in a normal club structure - let's say Registrar. Currently there'd be one person looking after registration & membership for all GAA players, another person doing exactly the same for camogie players, and another doing it for ladies football players.
If you remove the duplication and combine the roles into one, then one person would have far more to do then than they would have had to do up to that point.
Treasurer would be another. Instead of one person just looking after all the income and expenditure for the GAA club, they'd then have to do the same for money brought in by and bills faced by the camogie and ladies football wings of the club as well.
And since you mention promotion of the games, any single club PRO would face a big increase in workload too if they were to post equally about all fixtures/results/other events related to hurling, football, camogie and ladies football, instead of just whichever ones they're covering now.
Conscious of course you could create "assistant" roles for all these positions - e.g. main Registrar could look all the GAA players, and Asst. Registrar could do the same for female players in the club. But then you wouldn't really be removing duplication of the role at all.
Anyway, that's how I foresee significantly increased workload for many of the volunteers already involved. If you or anybody else can explain to me how it wouldn't actually out this way, I'm genuinely hugely interested to learn." Anyway what is your solution so?
Gaaforlife2023 (Longford) - Posts: 224 - 06/08/2023 13:04:14
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Replying To Gaaforlife2023: "So what no integration of course will be issues early on but long term it is good solution can't see why soke are negative .Unless people don't want to help women's game is that it?It can beneficial long term" How will it be beneficial to the GAA ?
achara (Monaghan) - Posts: 565 - 06/08/2023 13:48:18
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I did that survey, it's incredibly leading, not at all a balanced survey, overall I think it will be positive in some areas, such as fixtures and results, which in the ladies game can be hard to track, most lgfa county boards seem to operate from Facebook pages which are erratic in updates, getting them on the gaa system will be good.
I think parity of esteem within clubs in terms of use of pitch and facilities will be a bonus for lgfa and camogie and only fair, I coached a ladies football team last year and definitely had the feeling we were just an inconvenience, even though we went further than the men's team.
The gaa will benefit from new fundraisers new members paying in, new blood to hopefully invigorate the organisation as a whole.
Coach Ed will see a benefit for all, some smaller counties struggle to run courses due to small numbers with the female side now in with us that should make for full courses.
The rules of the games should be the same for men and women, one game one rule book.
Potential concerns I'd have is will integration lead to price hikes on the turnstiles, the gaas expenses will double everywhere really, and I've no issue with all players being treated equally, but don't make the solution more costly on the supporters. Find another way.
Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1601 - 06/08/2023 14:18:32
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Replying To Gaaforlife2023: "Anyway what is your solution so?" Just reading through the list I would imagine the answer is obvious. Leave things as they are. I am an old fogey with my kids reared and gone so it won't make any difference to me or mine, but I would never stand in the way of progress. What I would like to know is what are the positives of integration and I don't need that old chestnut of gender equality trotted out. I'm all for genuine gender equality but not token equality. I can think of many downsides to integration, pitch space, finances etc for smaller already struggling clubs. Having said that possibly integration would improve things. Certainly the stronger Women's football and Camogie clubs and counties are pretty well organised already. Who is driving this integration and why ? Are the pros and cons being openly considered ?
Freethinker (Wicklow) - Posts: 1019 - 06/08/2023 14:22:30
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Replying To achara: "How will it be beneficial to the GAA ?" More people working together, more buying power if they're looking for sponsors, hopefully easier to schedule pitch times though don't hold your breath on that! For clubs looking to attract parents to get young children in, boys and girls, to play Gaelic games ahead of other sports. Contacting sports shop saying we want more jersies this season, what discount will you give us? It's not a massive leap. LGFA and Camogie are already members of their associations and use GAA and schools pitches same as the men.
But, one big question for me was should funding be allocated to sports evenly and not on how much each sport can raise. I said no to that. What should LGFA get a massive handout out of proportion to the money the GAA raises? At the same time I think GAA can look at how LGFA raised funds and publicity from deals like LIDL sponsorship.
As for LGFA, Camogie admins in clubs and GAA admins surely they can pool resources and have less work overall. Club membership forms online on one page, men, women, boys, girls. More people involved fundraising, scheduling pitches, updating Facebook, posting WhatsApp gametimes, locations.
The one thing I can see is it'll be hard in some cases to agree on stuff, stop letting their egos getting in the way. No need to go hugging trees but as long as they don't go too wokey cokey it should be a good thing and an improvement on what's there now.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7390 - 06/08/2023 14:49:24
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Aware that removal of duplication of similar work across the Associations is often put forward as a 'benefit', but it's actually precisely the kind of 'benefit' that I'd question.
Take any role in a normal club structure - let's say Registrar. Currently there'd be one person looking after registration & membership for all GAA players, another person doing exactly the same for camogie players, and another doing it for ladies football players.
If you remove the duplication and combine the roles into one, then one person would have far more to do then than they would have had to do up to that point.
Treasurer would be another. Instead of one person just looking after all the income and expenditure for the GAA club, they'd then have to do the same for money brought in by and bills faced by the camogie and ladies football wings of the club as well.
And since you mention promotion of the games, any single club PRO would face a big increase in workload too if they were to post equally about all fixtures/results/other events related to hurling, football, camogie and ladies football, instead of just whichever ones they're covering now.
Conscious of course you could create "assistant" roles for all these positions - e.g. main Registrar could look all the GAA players, and Asst. Registrar could do the same for female players in the club. But then you wouldn't really be removing duplication of the role at all.
Anyway, that's how I foresee significantly increased workload for many of the volunteers already involved. If you or anybody else can explain to me how it wouldn't actually out this way, I'm genuinely hugely interested to learn." You wouldnt need to split roles by gender but more by age so simply a person doing role for minor and below and then another for adult players.
A good club will have multiple people assisting a PRO anyway. so it shouldnt be an issue.
it doesnt make sense to have 3 associations covering the same sports.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3524 - 06/08/2023 19:45:27
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Don't know how many here have seen or been asked to fill in the major survey that's currently doing the rounds, on the proposed integration between the GAA, LGFA, and the Camogie Association.
It asks what benefits do you see coming down the line as the result of integration, if or when it happens.
To my mind, there would be clear, obvious, and fairly immediate benefits for both LGFA and Camogie. But I honestly can't think of even a single real benefit for the GAA. All I foresee is a greater drain on GAA resources, and greater demands on those already involved in administration in the GAA rather than either of the other two organisations.
One of the questions is along the lines of "if/when integration happens, would you be more likely/less likely/stay the same as regards being involved?". Had to consider that myself for the first time, and hand on heart, as one who's highly involved in GAA administration, realised I'd probably be less likely to stay involved if facing the the prospect of workload doubling or even tripling.
Am I being overly pessimistic, or can anybody express a different view, and maybe suggest what benefits for the GAA there might actually be, that I just haven't thought of myself?" I dont see any difference in real terms to say large Dublin clubs where, Hurling, Football, ladies football and camogie are already integrated complrtely into club structures. The benefits is a surge in club membership, a greater use of club resources, whole families involved. I cannot see what the negative is at all other than the fact maybe outside of Dublin LGF and Camogie are regarded as alien sports hence the negattlivity. Maybe if anyone is unsure how its to be managed check out someone in the larger Dublin clubs.
arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4903 - 06/08/2023 22:08:35
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Also worth pointing out the following really crucial anomaly. Girls who play either codes or both with the likes of Lucan, Ballyboden, Cuala, Na Fianna, Kilmacu Crokes in Dublin are all equal members of those clubs. So they pay dues to GAA clubs and they are already members of GAA by default. There is no issue at all unless you are a male only club, now theres a dinasaur.
arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4903 - 07/08/2023 11:05:37
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Glad to see a good discussion going on here anyway. Going to reply to a few people without actually quoting their posts in full:
@farneygossip & BarrowSider - agree that the survey is very leading. I could put up a couple of examples, but conscious that this post might already be fairly long!
@Gaaforlife23 - asking "unless people don't want to help the women's game?" suggests to me that you're conflating the questions "would integration bring benefits overall?" and "what benefits would integration bring for the GAA?". As regards "issues early on", I'd suggest there should be a comprehensive and detailed framework in place for such things before integration happens at all, so that they don't actually become issues in the first place.
Also - I don't have a solution, and am not asking for a solution. Again, my question is simply "what benefits would integration bring for the GAA?"
@GreenandRed - best answer yet as regards potential benefits, e.g. the extra publicity that LGFA gets from its deal with Lidl, and greater collective bargaining power when dealing with suppliers, etc. Thanks.
@KillingFields - whether you split that job by gender, age, or even alphabetically (e.g. "I'll do A to L, and you do M to Z"), it would still be two people doing essentially the same job, and so it wouldn't be a case of removing duplication of roles, which you originally suggested would be a benefit.
@arock - in fairness, how those large Dublin clubs operate is very different in many ways to how most clubs around the country operate, not least in the sort of membership fees charged (e.g. €195 for an underage player in Cuala this year. €25 for an underage player in my own club in rural Co. Wexford). Also, I think it's unfair to use words like "alien sports" and "dinosaur".
But anyway, I've no doubt that the camogie and ladies football wings of those clubs see major benefits from operating that way. But still wondering what benefits the men's/boys' hurling & football wings of those clubs now enjoy, that they didn't have before the clubs began operating this way?
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2262 - 07/08/2023 12:26:35
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Replying To arock: "I dont see any difference in real terms to say large Dublin clubs where, Hurling, Football, ladies football and camogie are already integrated complrtely into club structures. The benefits is a surge in club membership, a greater use of club resources, whole families involved. I cannot see what the negative is at all other than the fact maybe outside of Dublin LGF and Camogie are regarded as alien sports hence the negattlivity. Maybe if anyone is unsure how its to be managed check out someone in the larger Dublin clubs." I know of plenty clubs outside of Dublin which are already fully integrated, including my own which is a small club in Galway.
Some of the issues flagged above such as additional admin in registration are non-issues.
All players are being registered together at club level, regardless of GAA or LGFA. The merging at national level will actually reduce administration for clubs like ours, as players will then only have to be registered with one association.
Pitch schedules for training and matches are already arranged for all teams of all codes. It simplifies things to have everything under the one club. It also makes it easier for families.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2066 - 07/08/2023 13:35:04
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Replying To arock: "Also worth pointing out the following really crucial anomaly. Girls who play either codes or both with the likes of Lucan, Ballyboden, Cuala, Na Fianna, Kilmacu Crokes in Dublin are all equal members of those clubs. So they pay dues to GAA clubs and they are already members of GAA by default. There is no issue at all unless you are a male only club, now theres a dinasaur." Integration is working well at club level.
The real issue will be at county level where the GPA will demand equal travelling expenses for all codes.
This will badly affect smaller weker counties where travelling distances are huge from Dublin .These expenses are majority funded by county boards.
Unless there is central funding for county teams the consequences will be serious.
joeman123 (Leitrim) - Posts: 466 - 07/08/2023 17:26:12
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Replying To arock: "I dont see any difference in real terms to say large Dublin clubs where, Hurling, Football, ladies football and camogie are already integrated complrtely into club structures. The benefits is a surge in club membership, a greater use of club resources, whole families involved. I cannot see what the negative is at all other than the fact maybe outside of Dublin LGF and Camogie are regarded as alien sports hence the negattlivity. Maybe if anyone is unsure how its to be managed check out someone in the larger Dublin clubs." Be careful what you wish for.
If I had my way there would be 4 associations. Hurling needs to break away from Gaelic Football.
SixtiesKid (Galway) - Posts: 308 - 07/08/2023 17:49:53
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Glad to see a good discussion going on here anyway. Going to reply to a few people without actually quoting their posts in full:
@farneygossip & BarrowSider - agree that the survey is very leading. I could put up a couple of examples, but conscious that this post might already be fairly long!
@Gaaforlife23 - asking "unless people don't want to help the women's game?" suggests to me that you're conflating the questions "would integration bring benefits overall?" and "what benefits would integration bring for the GAA?". As regards "issues early on", I'd suggest there should be a comprehensive and detailed framework in place for such things before integration happens at all, so that they don't actually become issues in the first place.
Also - I don't have a solution, and am not asking for a solution. Again, my question is simply "what benefits would integration bring for the GAA?"
@GreenandRed - best answer yet as regards potential benefits, e.g. the extra publicity that LGFA gets from its deal with Lidl, and greater collective bargaining power when dealing with suppliers, etc. Thanks.
@KillingFields - whether you split that job by gender, age, or even alphabetically (e.g. "I'll do A to L, and you do M to Z"), it would still be two people doing essentially the same job, and so it wouldn't be a case of removing duplication of roles, which you originally suggested would be a benefit.
@arock - in fairness, how those large Dublin clubs operate is very different in many ways to how most clubs around the country operate, not least in the sort of membership fees charged (e.g. €195 for an underage player in Cuala this year. €25 for an underage player in my own club in rural Co. Wexford). Also, I think it's unfair to use words like "alien sports" and "dinosaur".
But anyway, I've no doubt that the camogie and ladies football wings of those clubs see major benefits from operating that way. But still wondering what benefits the men's/boys' hurling & football wings of those clubs now enjoy, that they didn't have before the clubs began operating this way?" you cant multi quote on here unless you embolden posts which is poor. Another fault of site....
it isnt two people doing same job. its two people completing a job which there is a difference. there is in plenty of clubs in many areas and sports that use two secretaties or a secretary and assistant secretary already so this would be nothing new if it happened in GAA.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3524 - 07/08/2023 19:03:58
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