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The split season seems to be here to stay. All-Ireland club finals are likely to remain in January for the foreseeable future. February to July is intercounty season. (February with an end of January start!) August to January is club season.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8291 - 26/07/2023 16:24:14
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Replying To KillingFields: "Players cant and shouldnt be expected to play everything.
too much expected of a lot of players in colleges, inter county" Yeah this is a big issue in the association. Just because a player is eligible for a team doesn't mean that they have to play for that team. It just means that you end up with the best players playing too much and everyone else sitting out waiting for other grades to quit playing.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 26/07/2023 16:36:56
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Replying To KillingFields: "Players cant and shouldnt be expected to play everything.
too much expected of a lot of players in colleges, inter county" Yes, they shouldn't. In fact, it should be taken out of managers hands into a player welfare officer in Croke Park to ensure they aren't been hammered by diktat managers.
ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1259 - 26/07/2023 18:11:31
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Replying To Pikeman96: "I think he just means the provincial and All-Ireland club championships. But even still, there would be problems.
Colleges tend to have first call on players for the Fitzgibbon and Sigerson, especially if those players are on any sort of a scholarship. So if a player's college is in action on any given day, and his club is in a provincial competition on the same day, then the club would have to do without him.
Or even allowing for how many Fitzgibbon and Sigerson Cup matches are played midweek - if the player's club is training that night in preparation for provincial or All-Ireland club competition, the player can't even attend club training." Yeah but lets be fair if a lad is training for an All-Ireland club competition he can surely miss the training for 1 night for a Fitzgibbon match.
Again, I view it is a collective will meeting a way. And its likely to be a handful of players needing to be managed that way.
The club competitions could be played off over 6-7 weeks on 4G pitches in February and March. This way, all players get a break at the end of the year.
Its not perfect but in GAA perfect tends to be the enemy of the good as they say. What is there at the moment is wholly imperfect.
ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1259 - 26/07/2023 18:15:42
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But again as I have said elsewhere many issues of calendars go away with indoor and 4G pitches.
ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1259 - 26/07/2023 18:16:44
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Replying To ExiledInWex: "Yeah but lets be fair if a lad is training for an All-Ireland club competition he can surely miss the training for 1 night for a Fitzgibbon match.
Again, I view it is a collective will meeting a way. And its likely to be a handful of players needing to be managed that way.
The club competitions could be played off over 6-7 weeks on 4G pitches in February and March. This way, all players get a break at the end of the year.
Its not perfect but in GAA perfect tends to be the enemy of the good as they say. What is there at the moment is wholly imperfect." Player welfare and diktat managers? Then on the other hand play off 16 games in 6 to 7 weeks? 16 games!!! For some lads that means nearly 3 championship games a week. You are some lad for talking out of both sides of your mouth!!!!! What you are proposing is ridiculous!
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 26/07/2023 20:18:29
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Replying To ExiledInWex: "Yeah but lets be fair if a lad is training for an All-Ireland club competition he can surely miss the training for 1 night for a Fitzgibbon match.
Again, I view it is a collective will meeting a way. And its likely to be a handful of players needing to be managed that way.
The club competitions could be played off over 6-7 weeks on 4G pitches in February and March. This way, all players get a break at the end of the year.
Its not perfect but in GAA perfect tends to be the enemy of the good as they say. What is there at the moment is wholly imperfect." I said about a Fitzgibbon/Sigerson match clashing with a club training session, not two training sessions clashing. And as already pointed out, the college team would have first call on him if he was on any sort of scholarship.
Also, you seem to have a huge grá for 4G pitches. Where are they all going to come from, and who's going to pay for them? I know there are a few around the country already, but remember, if you're talking about using them for the provincial and All-Ireland club championships, you don't just need a 4G pitch....you need a 4G stadium that can properly hold thousands of people.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2622 - 27/07/2023 00:58:23
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Replying To ExiledInWex: "But again as I have said elsewhere many issues of calendars go away with indoor and 4G pitches." We would need a good few more 4g pitches than we have though. And they aren't cheap.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 27/07/2023 08:47:47
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Replying To ExiledInWex: "But again as I have said elsewhere many issues of calendars go away with indoor and 4G pitches." And what about the Intercounty League and preseason competitions?
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 27/07/2023 08:48:23
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Replying To StoreysTash: "I consumed more GAA media in the last week than I have in the past year, and the main lament was "The All-Ireland final should be in September".
Which made me think, well is there an option where it can be?
It can in my opinion, but it will involve inter county managers giving up their players for club action throughout the summer (don't know if a runner).
I was a club player until last year, and I liked the certainty the calendar gave us. But I would have loved if it was throughout the Summer rather than at the back end of it after the best of the summer had passed. And, even the slightest niggle in it meant players missed vital matches with no healing time.
I know a few inter county players and I know they would love a break from the all consuming nature of it by getting back to their clubs at various stages in the year.
Assumptions:
1. Provincials start at the same time.
2. Club weeks every month (except August for teams still in AI Series)
3. A 2 week break before the Provincial Finals.
4. A week of a break before the resumption of inter county activity, so managers can get their team back together.
22/04/2023 Provincial Round 1
29/04/2023 Provincial Round 2
06/05/2023 Club Week
13/05/2023 Club Week
20/05/2023 Break
27/05/2023 Provincial Round 3
03/06/2023 Provincial Round 4
10/06/2023 Club Week
17/06/2023 Club Week
24/06/2023 Break
01/07/2023 Provincial Round 5
08/07/2023 Break
15/07/2023 Provincial Final
22/07/2023 Club week
29/07/2023 Club week
05/08/2023 Break
12/08/2023 AI Quarter Finals
19/08/2023 Break
26/08/2023 AI Semi Final
02/09/2023 Break
09/09/2023 AI Final
16/09/2023 Club from here on
Biggest advantage is the club game is part of the entire summer, not just for when the inter county season is over. Rather than a microwave championship as Donal Og called it its spread out but the club is a big part of the summer.
I won't be here to reply to responses until tomorrow morning GMT as I have footie training for the evening." What intercounty manager is now going to release his players to clubs for 2 weeks?
The day is fast approaching where clubs play away without intercounty players.
hurlorhurley (Wexford) - Posts: 1660 - 27/07/2023 09:39:15
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Replying To hurlorhurley: " Replying To StoreysTash: "I consumed more GAA media in the last week than I have in the past year, and the main lament was "The All-Ireland final should be in September".
Which made me think, well is there an option where it can be?
It can in my opinion, but it will involve inter county managers giving up their players for club action throughout the summer (don't know if a runner).
I was a club player until last year, and I liked the certainty the calendar gave us. But I would have loved if it was throughout the Summer rather than at the back end of it after the best of the summer had passed. And, even the slightest niggle in it meant players missed vital matches with no healing time.
I know a few inter county players and I know they would love a break from the all consuming nature of it by getting back to their clubs at various stages in the year.
Assumptions:
1. Provincials start at the same time.
2. Club weeks every month (except August for teams still in AI Series)
3. A 2 week break before the Provincial Finals.
4. A week of a break before the resumption of inter county activity, so managers can get their team back together.
22/04/2023 Provincial Round 1
29/04/2023 Provincial Round 2
06/05/2023 Club Week
13/05/2023 Club Week
20/05/2023 Break
27/05/2023 Provincial Round 3
03/06/2023 Provincial Round 4
10/06/2023 Club Week
17/06/2023 Club Week
24/06/2023 Break
01/07/2023 Provincial Round 5
08/07/2023 Break
15/07/2023 Provincial Final
22/07/2023 Club week
29/07/2023 Club week
05/08/2023 Break
12/08/2023 AI Quarter Finals
19/08/2023 Break
26/08/2023 AI Semi Final
02/09/2023 Break
09/09/2023 AI Final
16/09/2023 Club from here on
Biggest advantage is the club game is part of the entire summer, not just for when the inter county season is over. Rather than a microwave championship as Donal Og called it its spread out but the club is a big part of the summer.
I won't be here to reply to responses until tomorrow morning GMT as I have footie training for the evening." What intercounty manager is now going to release his players to clubs for 2 weeks? The day is fast approaching where clubs play away without intercounty players."
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3127 - 27/07/2023 09:47:20
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Well, since I checked in last I see ExiledInWex has went one step further, only to be piled on for thinking about things differently.
The point is, like it or lump it the club game is dying and being swallowed hook line and sinker by the inter county game. When I first started playing club, we had matches in April and then nothing until July/August when Wexford were knocked out. It was AWFUL. The alternative is a club championship played at break-neck speed where GAA pitches might as well have silage cut off them in May before the hurling training gets going. It was better, in that at least there was a calendar but it was only because what went before was god-awful.
Talk of pre-season comps, at the moment GAA has pre-season (Walsh Cup) for pre-season (league). The Walsh Cups, etc should be binned. End of. Not needed. Pointless. The league is just that - pre-season.
I never was lucky enough to play Fitzgibbon and club finals at the same time (or never the latter at any stage) but back when the finals were on Paddy's Day, the only ask of the Fitzgibbon managers was that players were available for matches. Which they were. This is a non-issue. Where it becomes an issue is where county managers wanted them for league matches. I think this issue has been dealt with though now.
4G pitches are not cheap (to build or maintain I bet) but surely in the grand scheme of things in terms of return on investment they are worth their weight in gold. We train on a 4G surface here during the footie season if the pitch is too wet and although not full cricket pitch size they are probably the size of a GAA pitch.
Who says managers can't be ordered to release players? Who is the GAA for, these egomaniac managers? Who gave them all the power to call the shots? Maybe it is time to take some power back off these lads and give it back to the people who make the organisation what it is, i.e. the 99% of players who the best we can offer is a championship played at a ridiculous speed given the calendar.
I guess I am out the other side now and am seeing the light on many of these issues. I can tell you every match I had for the whole winter here and will have until the end of the season. I still love GAA as an organisation but as a player, I doubt I'll be back even when I move home in a few years. Maybe the only solution is that the clubs go ahead without the county men but that's the death knell for the clubs if you ask me.
StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1785 - 27/07/2023 10:00:43
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Replying To BarneyGrant: " Replying To hurlorhurley: "[quote=StoreysTash: "I consumed more GAA media in the last week than I have in the past year, and the main lament was "The All-Ireland final should be in September".
Which made me think, well is there an option where it can be?
It can in my opinion, but it will involve inter county managers giving up their players for club action throughout the summer (don't know if a runner).
I was a club player until last year, and I liked the certainty the calendar gave us. But I would have loved if it was throughout the Summer rather than at the back end of it after the best of the summer had passed. And, even the slightest niggle in it meant players missed vital matches with no healing time.
I know a few inter county players and I know they would love a break from the all consuming nature of it by getting back to their clubs at various stages in the year.
Assumptions:
1. Provincials start at the same time.
2. Club weeks every month (except August for teams still in AI Series)
3. A 2 week break before the Provincial Finals.
4. A week of a break before the resumption of inter county activity, so managers can get their team back together.
22/04/2023 Provincial Round 1
29/04/2023 Provincial Round 2
06/05/2023 Club Week
13/05/2023 Club Week
20/05/2023 Break
27/05/2023 Provincial Round 3
03/06/2023 Provincial Round 4
10/06/2023 Club Week
17/06/2023 Club Week
24/06/2023 Break
01/07/2023 Provincial Round 5
08/07/2023 Break
15/07/2023 Provincial Final
22/07/2023 Club week
29/07/2023 Club week
05/08/2023 Break
12/08/2023 AI Quarter Finals
19/08/2023 Break
26/08/2023 AI Semi Final
02/09/2023 Break
09/09/2023 AI Final
16/09/2023 Club from here on
Biggest advantage is the club game is part of the entire summer, not just for when the inter county season is over. Rather than a microwave championship as Donal Og called it its spread out but the club is a big part of the summer.
I won't be here to reply to responses until tomorrow morning GMT as I have footie training for the evening." What intercounty manager is now going to release his players to clubs for 2 weeks? The day is fast approaching where clubs play away without intercounty players."
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 27/07/2023 10:13:40
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Replying To StoreysTash: "Well, since I checked in last I see ExiledInWex has went one step further, only to be piled on for thinking about things differently.
The point is, like it or lump it the club game is dying and being swallowed hook line and sinker by the inter county game. When I first started playing club, we had matches in April and then nothing until July/August when Wexford were knocked out. It was AWFUL. The alternative is a club championship played at break-neck speed where GAA pitches might as well have silage cut off them in May before the hurling training gets going. It was better, in that at least there was a calendar but it was only because what went before was god-awful.
Talk of pre-season comps, at the moment GAA has pre-season (Walsh Cup) for pre-season (league). The Walsh Cups, etc should be binned. End of. Not needed. Pointless. The league is just that - pre-season.
I never was lucky enough to play Fitzgibbon and club finals at the same time (or never the latter at any stage) but back when the finals were on Paddy's Day, the only ask of the Fitzgibbon managers was that players were available for matches. Which they were. This is a non-issue. Where it becomes an issue is where county managers wanted them for league matches. I think this issue has been dealt with though now.
4G pitches are not cheap (to build or maintain I bet) but surely in the grand scheme of things in terms of return on investment they are worth their weight in gold. We train on a 4G surface here during the footie season if the pitch is too wet and although not full cricket pitch size they are probably the size of a GAA pitch.
Who says managers can't be ordered to release players? Who is the GAA for, these egomaniac managers? Who gave them all the power to call the shots? Maybe it is time to take some power back off these lads and give it back to the people who make the organisation what it is, i.e. the 99% of players who the best we can offer is a championship played at a ridiculous speed given the calendar.
I guess I am out the other side now and am seeing the light on many of these issues. I can tell you every match I had for the whole winter here and will have until the end of the season. I still love GAA as an organisation but as a player, I doubt I'll be back even when I move home in a few years. Maybe the only solution is that the clubs go ahead without the county men but that's the death knell for the clubs if you ask me." How is not having county men the death knell of the clubs? Most clubs don't have many, if any, county men in any given year.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 27/07/2023 10:16:06
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Replying To hurlorhurley: " Replying To StoreysTash: "I consumed more GAA media in the last week than I have in the past year, and the main lament was "The All-Ireland final should be in September".
Which made me think, well is there an option where it can be?
It can in my opinion, but it will involve inter county managers giving up their players for club action throughout the summer (don't know if a runner).
I was a club player until last year, and I liked the certainty the calendar gave us. But I would have loved if it was throughout the Summer rather than at the back end of it after the best of the summer had passed. And, even the slightest niggle in it meant players missed vital matches with no healing time.
I know a few inter county players and I know they would love a break from the all consuming nature of it by getting back to their clubs at various stages in the year.
Assumptions:
1. Provincials start at the same time.
2. Club weeks every month (except August for teams still in AI Series)
3. A 2 week break before the Provincial Finals.
4. A week of a break before the resumption of inter county activity, so managers can get their team back together.
22/04/2023 Provincial Round 1
29/04/2023 Provincial Round 2
06/05/2023 Club Week
13/05/2023 Club Week
20/05/2023 Break
27/05/2023 Provincial Round 3
03/06/2023 Provincial Round 4
10/06/2023 Club Week
17/06/2023 Club Week
24/06/2023 Break
01/07/2023 Provincial Round 5
08/07/2023 Break
15/07/2023 Provincial Final
22/07/2023 Club week
29/07/2023 Club week
05/08/2023 Break
12/08/2023 AI Quarter Finals
19/08/2023 Break
26/08/2023 AI Semi Final
02/09/2023 Break
09/09/2023 AI Final
16/09/2023 Club from here on
Biggest advantage is the club game is part of the entire summer, not just for when the inter county season is over. Rather than a microwave championship as Donal Og called it its spread out but the club is a big part of the summer.
I won't be here to reply to responses until tomorrow morning GMT as I have footie training for the evening." What intercounty manager is now going to release his players to clubs for 2 weeks? The day is fast approaching where clubs play away without intercounty players."
In Ulster you have starred league games, I don't think it'd be terrible to introduce that for Championship.
Like say in Wexford you could have your 12 senior teams playing one another, some would be with county players, some without.
Say every team played 6 with and 5 without, you could rank teams based on the started games with county players and then use the unstarred games as a tiebreaker. Top 4 to semifinals, bottom 2 to relegation playoffs.
Thats getting more games but teams aren't being overly penalised for missing players.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 27/07/2023 10:26:29
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Replying To Viking66: "How is not having county men the death knell of the clubs? Most clubs don't have many, if any, county men in any given year." I would say you only have to look at rugby in this regard, the professional game (i.e. Leinster, Munster, etc) wrecked the AIL and these competitions have gone from a stage where there used to be a couple of thousand at many AIL games to now there being maybe a hundred or two.
I know this because my cousin played with Clontarf way back when.
ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1259 - 27/07/2023 12:13:45
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Replying To Viking66: "Player welfare and diktat managers? Then on the other hand play off 16 games in 6 to 7 weeks? 16 games!!! For some lads that means nearly 3 championship games a week. You are some lad for talking out of both sides of your mouth!!!!! What you are proposing is ridiculous!" What are you talking about?
If you read my post properly, you would see I am talking about the Leinster and Munster provincial championships being played at the start of the year. In Leinster, there is a quarter/semi/final and max 1 prelim game. Then semi final and final.
I can't for the life of me see where you are getting 16 games in 6-7 weeks.
I'm sure 4G pitches aren't cheap but even that dome thing in Mayo can hold 3k people. That would cater for all but the biggest matches.
Or are you happy with how things are? An inter county season wrapped up in weeks and a club season finished even quicker?
"And what about the Intercounty League and preseason competitions?" - what about them? Whatever about the league, the Walsh Cup etc can be binned. At the moment, they are played without Fitzgibbon and were always played without those in the club championships.
(Pikeman96 the GAA can spend a million on many inter county teams, even finding money to waste on ex rugby players to be part of coaching setups. They can find the money to pay for 4G pitches which could play 5 matches a day with no issue. I am a big fan for sure, and more of a fan than a match in a muddy Patrick's Park in October)
ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1259 - 27/07/2023 12:52:44
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Replying To ExiledInWex: "What are you talking about?
If you read my post properly, you would see I am talking about the Leinster and Munster provincial championships being played at the start of the year. In Leinster, there is a quarter/semi/final and max 1 prelim game. Then semi final and final.
I can't for the life of me see where you are getting 16 games in 6-7 weeks.
I'm sure 4G pitches aren't cheap but even that dome thing in Mayo can hold 3k people. That would cater for all but the biggest matches.
Or are you happy with how things are? An inter county season wrapped up in weeks and a club season finished even quicker?
"And what about the Intercounty League and preseason competitions?" - what about them? Whatever about the league, the Walsh Cup etc can be binned. At the moment, they are played without Fitzgibbon and were always played without those in the club championships.
(Pikeman96 the GAA can spend a million on many inter county teams, even finding money to waste on ex rugby players to be part of coaching setups. They can find the money to pay for 4G pitches which could play 5 matches a day with no issue. I am a big fan for sure, and more of a fan than a match in a muddy Patrick's Park in October)" Sorry misread your post so. I thought you meant play the county club championships Jan til March!! I proposed playing the Provincial and AI club championships that time of year before myself.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 27/07/2023 13:31:51
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A lot of good concepts discussed here. The main problem is with the volume of matches to be fitted in at the moment particularly for dual clubs/counties.
Player welfare needs to be considered.
Option above combining Club/County looks good. Not sure how the "break" week works. While there is no matches, players, particularly county players will be ramping up training for an upcoming match.
I think if we are going to update calendar to move All Irelands back to Aug/Sept and facilitate club requirements (giving adequate window to complete matches) we are going to have to reduce the amount of matches. At the moment, there are three different grades to be accommodated (Club/County/College competitions)
For intercounty level, the following would need to be looked at,
Get rid of round robin competition and go back to straight knockout and possibly a backdoor option for early rounds. Clubs can also look at their own championship competitions in order to fit into a meaningful window. Player welfare needs to be considered. College competitions have been condensed as it is. Players enjoy these competitions so I think we should go back to the way it used to be. Sigerson/Fitsgibbon Cup weekends used to great weekens (QFs on Friday. SFs on Sat and finals on Sunday.
I do not have a defined calendar but something like
Jan - End of Apr Pre-Season competitions, National Leagues and College competitions)
May -Mid Sept Intercounty Champions and club competitions.
Sept -End of Year Completion of Club competitions.
For the above to work we need to reduce the amount of matches players need to play. There would be adequate time between championship matches to play a few rounds of club competitions.
I know the above will have a financial hit but as I have highlighted above is that player welfare needs to be taken into account. We want to keep our players involved. We do not want to drive them away to other sports.
I know that extra matches were introduced to give players more than one championship matches. A balance needs to be found to accommodate all players .
Jack L (None) - Posts: 3141 - 27/07/2023 13:43:02
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Replying To Jack L: "A lot of good concepts discussed here. The main problem is with the volume of matches to be fitted in at the moment particularly for dual clubs/counties.
Player welfare needs to be considered.
Option above combining Club/County looks good. Not sure how the "break" week works. While there is no matches, players, particularly county players will be ramping up training for an upcoming match.
I think if we are going to update calendar to move All Irelands back to Aug/Sept and facilitate club requirements (giving adequate window to complete matches) we are going to have to reduce the amount of matches. At the moment, there are three different grades to be accommodated (Club/County/College competitions)
For intercounty level, the following would need to be looked at,
Get rid of round robin competition and go back to straight knockout and possibly a backdoor option for early rounds. Clubs can also look at their own championship competitions in order to fit into a meaningful window. Player welfare needs to be considered. College competitions have been condensed as it is. Players enjoy these competitions so I think we should go back to the way it used to be. Sigerson/Fitsgibbon Cup weekends used to great weekens (QFs on Friday. SFs on Sat and finals on Sunday.
I do not have a defined calendar but something like
Jan - End of Apr Pre-Season competitions, National Leagues and College competitions)
May -Mid Sept Intercounty Champions and club competitions.
Sept -End of Year Completion of Club competitions.
For the above to work we need to reduce the amount of matches players need to play. There would be adequate time between championship matches to play a few rounds of club competitions.
I know the above will have a financial hit but as I have highlighted above is that player welfare needs to be taken into account. We want to keep our players involved. We do not want to drive them away to other sports.
I know that extra matches were introduced to give players more than one championship matches. A balance needs to be found to accommodate all players ." Rather than championship going knockout I think you need to streamline the season a bit you can't have league and Group stage competition.
Season should start with Provincials in both codes in April and May straight knockout with Club championships played around provincials.
Hurling goes to 2 groups of 6 for the All Ireland moving to quarterfinals.
Football goes to 2 groups of 8 moving to quarterfinals up to Sep.
Football has 14 game weeks over 26 weeks.
Hurling has 11.
You can play club around that number of intercounty weekends.
February and March for Provincial and All Ireland club.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 27/07/2023 15:49:17
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