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Kerry V Derry

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Replying To Claretandblue:  "Anyone who thinks Shane Ryan was undeserving of at least a yellow card is clueless about the rules. He was reckless and totally wrong."
If that was an outfield player it was a Derry free kick and at least a yellow, probably a red. The fact that he actually kicked a point after it incensed me. It was one of the worst decisions I have seen in a long time.

Jazzyjeff (Derry) - Posts: 212 - 17/07/2023 16:54:09    2495195

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referee got alot right, but he got 3 big calls wrong, duty of care to opposing player being the two bigest ones, both the hits on Shane McGuigan by the Kerry keeper and David Clifford, the keeper one in particular was a poor call, Ciffords happened so close and so quick it could be debated but it was the right call as in McGuigan had no chance or space to avoid the direct shoulder...the keeper one on McGuigan was clear cut, while not nasty in execution, the keeper comes and takes the ball and turns his backside midair into McGuigans chest and higher...not a sending off but definitely free and a card...how Derry let him proceed onto score after doing that is another story...the other dodgy call was the Stephen O'Brien free near the end, Lordy me if that was a free for an attempted tug, what was what I and many have outlined above then?? This lark of the keepers coming out will have to be looked at, no dont go now saying there is no rule that says they cant come out, we all know that there isnt..but should they be allowed out as an additional outfield player???..if so sure why not play fly keeper and let anybody who is near the goal stand in..I think allowing them outside of say the large square or maybe the 21, but after that no...a player who broaches that line, gets a yellow, if the broach it in one move and foul an opponent in the process, then a straight red (as 2rules have been breached)..alternatively, if people want the keeper to be allowed out, no other player is permitted to be in goal while the goal keeper is outfield...that would sort it out too....I can hear the massess gathering now to shoot down what I say...with the football is gone 28 players playing keep ball out the field is enough without allowing 30...

Fairplayalways (Offaly) - Posts: 1037 - 17/07/2023 17:06:12    2495205

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Replying To oso:  "What does your post even mean?

Having been accused of an embarassing post myself I said that the only "embarassing" thing was trying to condone and justify the actions of a player who deliberately tried to the hurt another player because it clearly the said poster has a dislike of "kerry men".

You're not balancing anything, I am entitled to post on any specific incident in any specific match I wish.....or not. I'm not here to comment on all games.

Are you attempting to apply that old gaa logic that 1 kick justifies another? Or that somehow 2 wrongs make a right? Seriously, I'm lost.

Anyone attempting to defend or justify Mckinless's blatant attempt to kick an opponent with that force needs to take a look at themselves."
I look at myself every morning. Didn't see you on here condoning Ryan O Donaghue . Call all deliberate kicks.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2289 - 17/07/2023 17:41:08    2495218

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Replying To Joxer:  "Dublin will put Fitzy on him I'd imagine. Fitzy is 34, Clifford is 24. Fitzy kept McManus to 2 from play on Sat and for one of those he let McManus drift to the other side of the pitch for another player to pick him up, who didn't. I think Fitzy will be given the task and if Dublin stick a sweeper in there, possibly Howard, then he'll be tasked with stopping the supply to Clifford. On form Fitzy is an itch that can't be scratched for a forward but this is Clifford aged 24, not McManus at 36 or Cillian O'Connor at 31. Stopping the supply will be crucial. Clifford got 5 from play on Sun."
Fitzy is it?

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8374 - 17/07/2023 22:23:41    2495257

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Replying To Ulsterman:  "Clifford scored 9 pts yesterday yet Derry left McKaigue on him. Why? Big big mistake. I know Clifford is a superb player but leaving a fella over 10 years older on him was a tactical error on the part of Derry management. Dublin won't make the same mistake."
No chance, Clifford is unmarkable so it's a case of keeping his scores down not scoreless. Derry management could do no more.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2289 - 17/07/2023 22:32:01    2495259

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The straw clutching about the Ryan incident is beyond ridiculous. Nobody can categorically state what rule was broken, post after post of hyperbolic nonsense and theories of what a ref would do if it was a different game with two different team playing. Talks of a straight red are rooted in anger and spite rather than anything resembling fair analysis of the incident.

The ref did not cost Derry that game, they put in a superb performance but failed to close the door on Kerry when they were on top and ran out of steam toward the end when a more seasoned Kerry team started to turn the screw. I appreciate that Derry fans and probably most neutrals were disappointed at the final whistle but a game is not won after 60 minutes unfortunately for Derry.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2113 - 17/07/2023 23:20:25    2495265

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Replying To MachaireConnacht:  "Ridiculous comment. How did yer pants fare out in the 2020 semi-final? I'd say even the best box of Daz couldn't help you."
Ridiculous comment. Cavan scored 5 points in the 2nd half of that game against the best Gaelic team ever, derry only managed 4 and not even against the best team ever.

wishfulthinkin (Cavan) - Posts: 1731 - 18/07/2023 00:40:45    2495279

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Cracking game. I thought Derry were the better team for 70% of the match, but their failure to convert a few scores at key times in the latter part of the 2nd half allowed momentum to swing back to Kerry, who were making hay from the Derry Kickouts at that time.

I thought when Gareth McKinless went for goal and it was saved, that it was a key miss, as had he opted for a point at that stage of the game, I think the Kerry player heads would have dropped a little and Derry might have pulled away.

Aside from David Clifford, this Kerry team look very ordinary and wouldn't really stand out from most other 2023 Division 1 teams. I noticed in a lot of man to man battles that Derry players often got the upper hand in large parts of the game.

Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1332 - 18/07/2023 09:45:48    2495301

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Replying To Jazzyjeff:  "If that was an outfield player it was a Derry free kick and at least a yellow, probably a red. The fact that he actually kicked a point after it incensed me. It was one of the worst decisions I have seen in a long time."
That Shane Ryan incident was absolutely nowhere near a red lads come on, free kick and yellow at most and you can make a case that the ref actually got the call right. Have to remember he has a split second to make the call without the benefit of replays like we have. On first glance, he obviously interpreted Ryan was just stronger in the 50/50 against Mcguigan. After seeing a replay, he seemed to have an eye on Mcguigan and turned his backside to him to protect himself and the ball, so it was probably a free and (possibly) a yellow. It's a contact game, if that's a red card we may all give up.

TobeaRossie (Roscommon) - Posts: 164 - 18/07/2023 09:56:34    2495303

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Replying To Fairplayalways:  "referee got alot right, but he got 3 big calls wrong, duty of care to opposing player being the two bigest ones, both the hits on Shane McGuigan by the Kerry keeper and David Clifford, the keeper one in particular was a poor call, Ciffords happened so close and so quick it could be debated but it was the right call as in McGuigan had no chance or space to avoid the direct shoulder...the keeper one on McGuigan was clear cut, while not nasty in execution, the keeper comes and takes the ball and turns his backside midair into McGuigans chest and higher...not a sending off but definitely free and a card...how Derry let him proceed onto score after doing that is another story...the other dodgy call was the Stephen O'Brien free near the end, Lordy me if that was a free for an attempted tug, what was what I and many have outlined above then?? This lark of the keepers coming out will have to be looked at, no dont go now saying there is no rule that says they cant come out, we all know that there isnt..but should they be allowed out as an additional outfield player???..if so sure why not play fly keeper and let anybody who is near the goal stand in..I think allowing them outside of say the large square or maybe the 21, but after that no...a player who broaches that line, gets a yellow, if the broach it in one move and foul an opponent in the process, then a straight red (as 2rules have been breached)..alternatively, if people want the keeper to be allowed out, no other player is permitted to be in goal while the goal keeper is outfield...that would sort it out too....I can hear the massess gathering now to shoot down what I say...with the football is gone 28 players playing keep ball out the field is enough without allowing 30..."
I think yours is one of the better posts on this topic. Both in content and articulation. I would agree with all points made. I was just waiting for a quick kick out and someone to lob the Derry keeper. He really took moving out the field to the extreme.

Freethinker (Wicklow) - Posts: 1610 - 18/07/2023 10:07:11    2495308

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Replying To TobeaRossie:  "That Shane Ryan incident was absolutely nowhere near a red lads come on, free kick and yellow at most and you can make a case that the ref actually got the call right. Have to remember he has a split second to make the call without the benefit of replays like we have. On first glance, he obviously interpreted Ryan was just stronger in the 50/50 against Mcguigan. After seeing a replay, he seemed to have an eye on Mcguigan and turned his backside to him to protect himself and the ball, so it was probably a free and (possibly) a yellow. It's a contact game, if that's a red card we may all give up."
It was dangerous play. A free and a yellow at least. To be fair to Shane Ryan he turned his back and didn't lead with the knee but say McKaigue had done that on Clifford or O'connor had done it on Glass. Every possibility it would have been a red. It felt because he was a keeper he got away with it.

Jazzyjeff (Derry) - Posts: 212 - 18/07/2023 10:19:09    2495317

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "The straw clutching about the Ryan incident is beyond ridiculous. Nobody can categorically state what rule was broken, post after post of hyperbolic nonsense and theories of what a ref would do if it was a different game with two different team playing. Talks of a straight red are rooted in anger and spite rather than anything resembling fair analysis of the incident.

The ref did not cost Derry that game, they put in a superb performance but failed to close the door on Kerry when they were on top and ran out of steam toward the end when a more seasoned Kerry team started to turn the screw. I appreciate that Derry fans and probably most neutrals were disappointed at the final whistle but a game is not won after 60 minutes unfortunately for Derry."
Agreed. We had the chances and didn't take them. Kerry pushed on in the last 5 minutes and showed why they are champions. The kick outs won in the last few minutes were crucial. The stronger bench helped there. I could see Ciaran Meenagh screaming on the touchline- move, move, move but by then the legs were going and even winning the second ball we were nowhere near it. Good luck in the final.

Jazzyjeff (Derry) - Posts: 212 - 18/07/2023 10:26:18    2495323

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Replying To Jazzyjeff:  "Agreed. We had the chances and didn't take them. Kerry pushed on in the last 5 minutes and showed why they are champions. The kick outs won in the last few minutes were crucial. The stronger bench helped there. I could see Ciaran Meenagh screaming on the touchline- move, move, move but by then the legs were going and even winning the second ball we were nowhere near it. Good luck in the final."
I was just thinking in those last key moments what Derry would have done for a peak Tohill in there to claim a few kick-outs.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9754 - 18/07/2023 11:13:46    2495351

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The standard of referring is terrible .. i think Clifford and ref scored nine pts between them .. How in mother of god was the Kerry goal keeper not even yellow carded , a Monaghan lad went to catch a ball in the Dublin game and was given a free against him because he had his right knee up ! if you look at any GAA training manual you are trained to raise your right knee to help with elevation and also when you hit the ground you have forward momentum ..

Saying that Derry have no return date to croke park in two weeks time because of there poor decision making and finishing.

I really thought they missed Rory Gallagher's driving influence on the side line as well .

There new manager or care taker manager was like a lamb on the sideline , often had his back to play talking to selectors , which to me screams nerves and lack of leadership .

Making nice interviews after games but actually believing in actually what you are saying is two different things .

i do think the best team lost on the day but i do think Kerry will bring more to the table against Dublin , belief is so important and being able to change the style of play against the dubs is so important and of course Mr. Clifford is something special even without the refs help ..

He is a great leader for Kerry

red.hugh (Donegal) - Posts: 176 - 18/07/2023 11:44:57    2495359

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "The straw clutching about the Ryan incident is beyond ridiculous. Nobody can categorically state what rule was broken, post after post of hyperbolic nonsense and theories of what a ref would do if it was a different game with two different team playing. Talks of a straight red are rooted in anger and spite rather than anything resembling fair analysis of the incident.

The ref did not cost Derry that game, they put in a superb performance but failed to close the door on Kerry when they were on top and ran out of steam toward the end when a more seasoned Kerry team started to turn the screw. I appreciate that Derry fans and probably most neutrals were disappointed at the final whistle but a game is not won after 60 minutes unfortunately for Derry."
I would agree up to a point. The Shane Ryan score was a valid score . He jumped awkwardly and in doing so made himself difficult to challenge without getting hurt, but he broke no rule.
Derry , while they played brilliantly will have to blame themselves much more so than the referee. It definitely wasn't a case of them being blatantly robbed.
Having said that Kerry undoubtedly got the benefit of more of the marginal calls and a more even distribution of these calls might have seen a 1 ,2 or 3 point swing which would have meant a 1 point win for either side, or a draw ( which might have been the fairest result looking back).

anotheralias (Galway) - Posts: 981 - 18/07/2023 11:59:11    2495366

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Replying To Jazzyjeff:  "It was dangerous play. A free and a yellow at least. To be fair to Shane Ryan he turned his back and didn't lead with the knee but say McKaigue had done that on Clifford or O'connor had done it on Glass. Every possibility it would have been a red. It felt because he was a keeper he got away with it."
What are you actually saying?? He shouldn't have contested the ball? He shouldn't have jumped for it at all? The fact remains that he went for the ball that he was entitled to and won it. How should he have jumped for the ball in your opinion?

Regardless of whatever way he went for the ball he's going to make contact with Shane Mcguigan.
This is the daftest debate ever. Shane Mcguigan can see him, or at least he should see him and take the appropriate measures to protect himself when he realises he's not going to get to the ball first. But he just runs straight into him and he would have done regardless of how Ryan had taken the ball. You can't blame Ryan for what appears to be a lack of awareness on Mcguigan's part in this instance.

Did you just want Ryan to pull out and let Mcguigan have the ball??

oso (Antrim) - Posts: 168 - 18/07/2023 12:00:57    2495367

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Replying To oso:  "What are you actually saying?? He shouldn't have contested the ball? He shouldn't have jumped for it at all? The fact remains that he went for the ball that he was entitled to and won it. How should he have jumped for the ball in your opinion?

Regardless of whatever way he went for the ball he's going to make contact with Shane Mcguigan.
This is the daftest debate ever. Shane Mcguigan can see him, or at least he should see him and take the appropriate measures to protect himself when he realises he's not going to get to the ball first. But he just runs straight into him and he would have done regardless of how Ryan had taken the ball. You can't blame Ryan for what appears to be a lack of awareness on Mcguigan's part in this instance.

Did you just want Ryan to pull out and let Mcguigan have the ball??"
He made contact with the players head whilst in an elevated position. It was dangerous play The ball was there to be won but that was not the way to win it. It was a free kick at the very very least. What is daft is that you are trying to defend it.

Jazzyjeff (Derry) - Posts: 212 - 18/07/2023 13:40:16    2495402

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Replying To red.hugh:  "The standard of referring is terrible .. i think Clifford and ref scored nine pts between them .. How in mother of god was the Kerry goal keeper not even yellow carded , a Monaghan lad went to catch a ball in the Dublin game and was given a free against him because he had his right knee up ! if you look at any GAA training manual you are trained to raise your right knee to help with elevation and also when you hit the ground you have forward momentum ..

Saying that Derry have no return date to croke park in two weeks time because of there poor decision making and finishing.

I really thought they missed Rory Gallagher's driving influence on the side line as well .

There new manager or care taker manager was like a lamb on the sideline , often had his back to play talking to selectors , which to me screams nerves and lack of leadership .

Making nice interviews after games but actually believing in actually what you are saying is two different things .

i do think the best team lost on the day but i do think Kerry will bring more to the table against Dublin , belief is so important and being able to change the style of play against the dubs is so important and of course Mr. Clifford is something special even without the refs help ..

He is a great leader for Kerry"
I though Derry under Ciaran Meenagh we're very brave and went out to win the game on their terms, Gallagher would not have changed tact and his game plan would have been to stop Kerry which would not have got them over the line. Most Derry fans are disappointed but very proud of how their team played.

tireoghainabu (Tyrone) - Posts: 390 - 18/07/2023 16:12:37    2495449

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Replying To Jazzyjeff:  "He made contact with the players head whilst in an elevated position. It was dangerous play The ball was there to be won but that was not the way to win it. It was a free kick at the very very least. What is daft is that you are trying to defend it."
As would every player jumping for a ball if the opposition player didn't leave the ground and ran straight into the.

If that's not the way to win the ball, what was the correct way? No matter what way he jumped he'd still have been in the air and Shane Mcguigan would still have ran straight into him! You've criticised it over and over as have lots of others, but what should be have done differently to prevent Shane Mcguigan running straight into him?

There's also an onus on Mcguigan here to protect himself in the challenge.

Guenuinely, for everyone who's criticised it. How should Ryan have gone for the ball in the air and how would that avoided contact with Shane Mcguigan, who just ran into the tackle and didn't leave the ground? I think Mcguigan himself is the one at fault.

Is it possible Mcguigan misread it? Mistimed it? Or simply didn't see him coming?

The daft is that this is being debated as influencing the game. Grapes at their sourest.

oso (Antrim) - Posts: 168 - 18/07/2023 16:23:52    2495457

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Replying To cavanman47:  "In that instance, there was more onus on McGuigan to protect himself. He could've avoided the collision. Ryan couldn't."
Agree with you on this observation.
Some arguments put forward for frees during the game:

"Ciffords happened so close and so quick it could be debated but it was the right call as in McGuigan had no chance or space to avoid the direct shoulder
Fairplayalways (Offaly)"
Going by this there would be never any shoulder to shoulder contact. Can you quote the rule please?

"He made contact with the players head whilst in an elevated position. It was dangerous play The ball was there to be won but that was not the way to win it. It was a free kick at the very very least. What is daft is that you are trying to defend it.
Jazzyjeff (Derry)
What other way was there to get it?

Bottom line: Kerry got 1-9 off their own kickouts. Derry only won two of Shane Ryan's restarts over the 70 plus minutes, just one of which led to a Derry point.

"From 21 plays, Clifford scored 0-4 from play, as well as a mark, while he was fouled for three converted frees and had a hand in another score."

The Derry manager hit the nail on the head: "At the end of the day, we scored three points in the second half and left an awful lot of scores behind us, a lot of turnovers and struggled on our own kick-out when it really counted coming down the straight."

Gaa Fan (USA) - Posts: 763 - 18/07/2023 16:33:52    2495462

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