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Replying To OpenStand: "Interesting thoughts which would sort out the moaning about Carlow & Offaly still been in championship whilst Cork etc are gone. Could you go a bit further in your suggestion that 4th in both Munster & Leinster would play the McDonagh Cup Winners & Runners up with the winners of those two matchs going onto play the third from the opposite province in quarter finals. So this year youd have cork or Wexford drawn to play either Offaly or Carlow , and if Cork and Wexford won it would be Cork V Dublin -Wexford V Tipperary in premlinary quarter finals." Will you stop! How could you possibly justify the 4th team in a group of 5 or 6 getting another chance? Apart from anything else it would take a lot of the excitement and last day drama out of the whole thing. It would also mean that a team that might have lost three games still being in the championship. For which there is no excuse really. And no demand either, Least of all from either of the counties that would benefit this year. BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3275 - 30/05/2023 19:42:47 2483021 Link
How about League standings and Provincial results determing Championship seeding? Run the League as it is currently, two even groups of six. Top two teams from each group play off in the SFs. The four semi-finalists are put in the Senior A group in the Championship. Run the Provincial championships as a knockout. The two Provincial winners are put in the Senior A group to complete the Top 6. If either of the Provincial winners are already qualified, then do a seeding system based on the last three seasons and admit the highest ranked team not already qualified into Senior A. The others six teams in the Championship then play in Senior B. Play round-robins of five matches each. 6th in Senior B gets relegated to Christy Ring/Joe McDonagh (Whichever name they choose). The top two in Senior A go straight to the All-Ireland SFs. 3rd in Senior A and 1st in Senior B go straight to the All-Ireland QFs. 4th in Senior A, 2nd in Senior B, 3rd in Senior B, and 4th in Senior B then play off in the Preliminary QFs. The two winners of the Preliminary QFs then go straight to the QFs and the competition runs off pretty much exactly the same as the current championship structure. I'm not wedded to this format but I like it as it places some importance on the league and the Provincial championships whilst likely maintaining competitive games and giving twelve teams the chance to still win Liam McCarthy. ElGranSenor (Wexford) - Posts: 361 - 30/05/2023 20:01:01 2483026 Link
I think that two groups of six are needed in tier 1, based on Munster and Leinster formats. The sixth team in Munster need not necessarily be Kerry. The bottom team in each group play a relegation playoff with the winner of Joe McDonagh getting promoted. A non-Munster team cannot play in Munster for two years in succession and would be replaced by the 5th or 6th Leinster team. It might mean that a team becomes "the whipping boys of Munster" for a year, but developing teams need to face this as a crucial part of their development. Observer23 (UK) - Posts: 17 - 30/05/2023 21:33:04 2483039 Link
Replying To Viking66: "Makes sense" Slept on it it would be a bad idea. Removes the jeopardy of finishing 4th Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14235 - 31/05/2023 10:22:29 2483084 Link
Replying To legendzxix: "I'm not against this idea. There is merit in the McDonagh finalists playing the 4th placed teams two weeks after the McDonagh final. Essentially a return of qualifier rounds. Q1: McDonagh finalists at home versus the 4th placed teams. Q2: 3rd placed teams versus Q1 winners. McDonagh winners granted home advantage if they cause a shock in Q1. Otherwise 3rd placed teams awarded home advantage. QF: Provincial runners-up versus Q2 winners. Neutral venue as per current regulations. Not everyone will be in favour of 4th placed teams still being included. Playing two qualifying rounds away and potentially a quarter-final over three weekends in a row would be a disadvantage though." Following on from this. 4th placed teams advancing from the provinces is a discussion for Munster and Leinster. I don't think McDonagh counties will be too bothered whether it's 3rd or 4th they are playing first. Carlow v Dublin or Carlow v Wexford Offaly v Tipperary or Offaly v Cork legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8417 - 31/05/2023 10:25:32 2483085 Link
Replying To Viking66: "Slept on it it would be a bad idea. Removes the jeopardy of finishing 4th" I would not want Dublin to be still there if we'd finished fourth, and I'm sure same applies to Wexford. Indeed, had Dublin been well beaten by Galway and still qualified in third - which was guaranteed - I would have no enthusiasm for any other game afterwards. Possibly still end - assuming we beat Carlow - with a defeat and possibly a heavy one against Clare or Limerick, but at least they can look forward to next two games on a upbeat, and feel they deserve to be there on performances. Which we would not had Kilkenny beaten Wexford last year. BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3275 - 31/05/2023 10:48:09 2483094 Link
Replying To BarneyGrant: "Will you stop! How could you possibly justify the 4th team in a group of 5 or 6 getting another chance? Apart from anything else it would take a lot of the excitement and last day drama out of the whole thing. It would also mean that a team that might have lost three games still being in the championship. For which there is no excuse really. And no demand either, Least of all from either of the counties that would benefit this year." No demand unless your name is John Mullane ;) Stool Pigeon (Galway) - Posts: 906 - 31/05/2023 10:58:18 2483095 Link
Replying To legendzxix: "Following on from this. 4th placed teams advancing from the provinces is a discussion for Munster and Leinster. I don't think McDonagh counties will be too bothered whether it's 3rd or 4th they are playing first. Carlow v Dublin or Carlow v Wexford Offaly v Tipperary or Offaly v Cork" Why not just have more than 6 teams in Leinster if they want to play there? It is Westmeaths championship, same for Laois and Offaly, even Meath and Kildare if they get better which I'm sure they will. These are all Leinster counties who historically competed in the Leinster Championship. Run it off in 2 groups if needs be with calendar constraints. Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14235 - 31/05/2023 10:59:05 2483097 Link
Replying To legendzxix: "Following on from this. 4th placed teams advancing from the provinces is a discussion for Munster and Leinster. I don't think McDonagh counties will be too bothered whether it's 3rd or 4th they are playing first. Carlow v Dublin or Carlow v Wexford Offaly v Tipperary or Offaly v Cork" What's the point in having a group stage at all so! It would be like the football groups. Zero jeopardy for the "bigger" teams and would deflate most of the excitement we've seen in both championships so far, including the McDonagh. People these days are obsessed with making everything easier and "more equal." Life and sport are neither. BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3275 - 31/05/2023 11:02:18 2483100 Link
How many chances do counties want? If it was 4th v 4th then theoretically you could win 1 game in either province and still win the All-Ireland. While I was really delighted that Wexford won on Sunday, I don't think they deserved to be still in the championship. ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1267 - 31/05/2023 11:03:32 2483102 Link
Replying To Viking66: "Why not just have more than 6 teams in Leinster if they want to play there? It is Westmeaths championship, same for Laois and Offaly, even Meath and Kildare if they get better which I'm sure they will. These are all Leinster counties who historically competed in the Leinster Championship. Run it off in 2 groups if needs be with calendar constraints." It is possible to allow Munster at least 5 teams and Leinster at least 9 teams. The McDonagh winner then determining if either province has an extra team for a year. 9 or 10 teams in Leinster can play 4 teams. 2 home and 2 away. Known as a Swiss tournament format. After 4 games, top 2 into semi-finals. 3rd to 6th in quarter-finals. In years when Leinster has 10 teams 7th to 10th in relegation semi-finals. 3rd placed playoff in Leinster for All-Ireland quarter-final spot. If Kerry win the McDonagh, Munster has 9 and Leinster has 9. 6th team in Munster relegated. Always 15 teams in the two provinces. The McDonagh, Ring, Rackard and Meagher having 5 teams each. 2nd and 3rd into semi-finals. Winners promoted only. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8417 - 31/05/2023 12:08:53 2483138 Link
Replying To ExiledInWex: "How many chances do counties want? If it was 4th v 4th then theoretically you could win 1 game in either province and still win the All-Ireland. While I was really delighted that Wexford won on Sunday, I don't think they deserved to be still in the championship." We don't. Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14235 - 31/05/2023 12:11:43 2483140 Link
Replying To BarneyGrant: "What's the point in having a group stage at all so! It would be like the football groups. Zero jeopardy for the "bigger" teams and would deflate most of the excitement we've seen in both championships so far, including the McDonagh. People these days are obsessed with making everything easier and "more equal." Life and sport are neither." I'm not looking for 4th to qualify. Just pointing out whether they do or not should not be an issue for McDonagh counties. McDonagh finalists getting an opportunity to play two provincial counties is a great compromise, while admittedly bizarre. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8417 - 31/05/2023 12:12:14 2483141 Link
Replying To ExiledInWex: "How many chances do counties want? If it was 4th v 4th then theoretically you could win 1 game in either province and still win the All-Ireland. While I was really delighted that Wexford won on Sunday, I don't think they deserved to be still in the championship." Youre spot on but Wexford won only 1 game in 2019 and weren't far away from winning the AI. Tipp also could have qualified with one win last year and also have only one win this year... tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 31/05/2023 13:24:58 2483152 Link
Replying To legendzxix: "I'm not looking for 4th to qualify. Just pointing out whether they do or not should not be an issue for McDonagh counties. McDonagh finalists getting an opportunity to play two provincial counties is a great compromise, while admittedly bizarre." I agree that 4th should not qualify. I also think that more needs to be done to encourage talent in the weaker counties to stay in the game, not just McDonagh teams. After the lower tier round robins are completed is there merit in getting provincial squads together from lower tiers (excluding those involved in McDonagh final), having a round robin (but no final) and the top-2 go through to play winners of 3rd place/McDonagh teams? Good hurlers in places like Donegal, Louth, Sligo etc have no platform to develop their talents further. This is badly needed if hurling is serious about its development. Ulster, (North) Connacht and Leinster could easily field teams. Kerry would need to align with Britain/Overseas and create a Munster Exiles team. I get that there will be issues around players not having enough time to gel etc. But worth looking at I think… Observer23 (UK) - Posts: 17 - 31/05/2023 14:22:51 2483172 Link
Replying To tiobraid: "Youre spot on but Wexford won only 1 game in 2019 and weren't far away from winning the AI. Tipp also could have qualified with one win last year and also have only one win this year..." Won 2 games one of which was the Leinster final. But equally Wexford were undefeated coming into that AISF. Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14235 - 31/05/2023 14:47:06 2483178 Link
Replying To Observer23: "I agree that 4th should not qualify. I also think that more needs to be done to encourage talent in the weaker counties to stay in the game, not just McDonagh teams. After the lower tier round robins are completed is there merit in getting provincial squads together from lower tiers (excluding those involved in McDonagh final), having a round robin (but no final) and the top-2 go through to play winners of 3rd place/McDonagh teams? Good hurlers in places like Donegal, Louth, Sligo etc have no platform to develop their talents further. This is badly needed if hurling is serious about its development. Ulster, (North) Connacht and Leinster could easily field teams. Kerry would need to align with Britain/Overseas and create a Munster Exiles team. I get that there will be issues around players not having enough time to gel etc. But worth looking at I think…" I like the idea of some recognition for lower tier hurlers. It could be achieved by Ulster v Connacht-Leinster. Both selected from Ring, Rackard and Meagher. It could a curtain raiser for the All-Ireland final. The All-Ireland Junior Football Championship was contested by Kilkenny, two teams from across the Irish Sea and New York last year. The All-Ireland Intermediate Hurling final could be a straight final between Ulster v Connacht-Leinster. They could even play over two legs. Before a semi-final and the final. Two days out in Croke Park. Ulster: Derry, Tyrone, Donegal, Armagh, Fermanagh, Monaghan and Cavan. Connacht-Leinster: Meath, Sligo, Mayo, Wicklow, Roscommon, Louth, Longford and Leitrim. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8417 - 31/05/2023 16:52:51 2483223 Link
Replying To Viking66: "Why not just have more than 6 teams in Leinster if they want to play there? It is Westmeaths championship, same for Laois and Offaly, even Meath and Kildare if they get better which I'm sure they will. These are all Leinster counties who historically competed in the Leinster Championship. Run it off in 2 groups if needs be with calendar constraints." I'm not so sure that Laois were a better team when they played all those years in Leinster getting hammered than they were when they came back up from winning the Joe Mc. I was lucky enough to be part of a team who got promoted and we competed for a couple of years but then scraped through relegations for a few years receiving hammerings most games - theres absolutely no enjoyment in that and numbers dwindled away as well. We all want to compete at the highest level but just because you want to it doesnt mean you should. The Joe Mc cup was and still is a brilliant idea and you can see what it meant to Carlow and other teams before. Put them all into Leinster and they have no realistic chance of competing for silverware and will ship heavy beatings at times as well. Competitive games at their level brings these teams on far more than a hammering from a team better than them tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 01/06/2023 09:40:31 2483295 Link
Replying To tiobraid: "I'm not so sure that Laois were a better team when they played all those years in Leinster getting hammered than they were when they came back up from winning the Joe Mc. I was lucky enough to be part of a team who got promoted and we competed for a couple of years but then scraped through relegations for a few years receiving hammerings most games - theres absolutely no enjoyment in that and numbers dwindled away as well. We all want to compete at the highest level but just because you want to it doesnt mean you should. The Joe Mc cup was and still is a brilliant idea and you can see what it meant to Carlow and other teams before. Put them all into Leinster and they have no realistic chance of competing for silverware and will ship heavy beatings at times as well. Competitive games at their level brings these teams on far more than a hammering from a team better than them" If you had Antrim, Laois, Carlow, Offaly and Westmeath in Leinster wouldn't they compete as well against eachother as they do in the Joe Mac? And ourselves, Kilkenny, Galway and Dublin would be competitive enough against eachother in a usual year. And Kildare, Wicklow and Meath might come up to join them in time. There's great hurling work going on in all 3 counties and they have the populations to support growth. More games for those counties against better counties would improve the individual players hurling as they would largely be marking better opponents. Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14235 - 01/06/2023 10:39:40 2483313 Link
Replying To tiobraid: "Youre spot on but Wexford won only 1 game in 2019 and weren't far away from winning the AI. Tipp also could have qualified with one win last year and also have only one win this year..." Its one thing getting a win and a couple of draws, winning one out of 4/5 matches and still being in is a bit of a farce. ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1267 - 01/06/2023 11:24:24 2483332 Link