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All Ireland Senior Hurling Championship 2023

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Replying To foreveryoung:  "Yes, Cork have improved, or rather have put a bit of steel into their game. Still, their two best forwards were Horgan and Harnedy (unmarkable at times today), and the question is: Will Cork be able to replace them when they bow out? Dalton is a fine prospect but he doesn't seem to have 70 minutes of tough running in him that the white heat of championship requires, and Robbie O'Flynn is a huge loss, of course. However, the rest of the Cork forwards seem to be easy enough muscled out of it. So, while overall, Pat Ryan has improved Cork, his hand might be a lot tougher going forward into the second season, especially if those two great servants and also great stickmen decide to go."
In response to that, I'd say another year or two of conditioning for those young forwards will make a difference in terms of being out muscled in years to come. I would say that Horgan will be a huge loss indeed and it will be difficult to reach lace him. Every county has a marquee forward or two like this. Reid for Kilkenny jumps out as a similar case.
However, sometimes the sum of the parts is better than the singular star. You can only play with what you have and get the best out of it.

BaldyBadger (Cork) - Posts: 313 - 29/05/2023 15:32:10    2482634

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Replying To BaldyBadger:  "In response to that, I'd say another year or two of conditioning for those young forwards will make a difference in terms of being out muscled in years to come. I would say that Horgan will be a huge loss indeed and it will be difficult to reach lace him. Every county has a marquee forward or two like this. Reid for Kilkenny jumps out as a similar case.
However, sometimes the sum of the parts is better than the singular star. You can only play with what you have and get the best out of it."
Sometimes when a generational player moves on it can galvanise the group with the sense that he's not there anymore to bail us out. Players lift their levels collectively and it can often mean a real bounce. I think likes of clare and tipp have bridged the S&C gap to Limerick and that's why they're really competing now. Kilkenny Galway have always had that type of conditioning. Cork I agree with you are another year or two away from the size needed but once they do they certainly have the hurlers and definitely have the right management

daveboy (Limerick) - Posts: 1197 - 29/05/2023 15:55:28    2482645

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Replying To BaldyBadger:  "In response to that, I'd say another year or two of conditioning for those young forwards will make a difference in terms of being out muscled in years to come. I would say that Horgan will be a huge loss indeed and it will be difficult to reach lace him. Every county has a marquee forward or two like this. Reid for Kilkenny jumps out as a similar case.
However, sometimes the sum of the parts is better than the singular star. You can only play with what you have and get the best out of it."
Yes, another year or two of conditioning could bring some of the newer lads up to the mark. However, quite a lot of that Cork team, in addition to Harnedy and Horgan, has been around a while. The goalie, the two corner-backs, the two Cahalane's, Conor Lehane, Luke Meade, Kieran Kingston, Darren Fitzgibbon (great player), Tim O'Mahoney, even Millerick who missed a year through injury, all have a lot of hurling done with nothing to show for it. So, I would be inclined to think that Cork need to be finding other players somewhere. I just can't see Cork winning an AI with some of these players that I have named. Barrett, the Downey's, Dalton and Roche, backed up by some more of their successful u-20's will have to be the men to do it.

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 2224 - 29/05/2023 17:26:09    2482680

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Replying To Canuck:  "Fulgrim when it comes to injuries I dont think anyone could come close to our woes. So we had to take the criticism on the chin from all sides and commentators. So be it, some was deserved. The intensity of preparation and games back to back is response for a lot of these injuries with all teams. Two things here. The welfare of the players so touted by the GAA and having the best players in games not on the injured list. A mandatory two game space between games."
Problem is that if we have less games people will complain that we have less games.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15731 - 29/05/2023 17:40:48    2482686

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Replying To foreveryoung:  "Yes, another year or two of conditioning could bring some of the newer lads up to the mark. However, quite a lot of that Cork team, in addition to Harnedy and Horgan, has been around a while. The goalie, the two corner-backs, the two Cahalane's, Conor Lehane, Luke Meade, Kieran Kingston, Darren Fitzgibbon (great player), Tim O'Mahoney, even Millerick who missed a year through injury, all have a lot of hurling done with nothing to show for it. So, I would be inclined to think that Cork need to be finding other players somewhere. I just can't see Cork winning an AI with some of these players that I have named. Barrett, the Downey's, Dalton and Roche, backed up by some more of their successful u-20's will have to be the men to do it."
Alot of those players like Darragh Fitzgibbon, Kingston, O Mahoney, Mellerick, Robbie O Flynn, Declan Dalton, Mark Coleman, Niall O Leary, Cahalane, were on Corks good 2018 u21 team. They are all only 25 or so now. Coming into their prime.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15731 - 29/05/2023 17:46:07    2482692

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Replying To tiobraid:  "Theres an obviosu problem for me with this. Antrim clearly targetting their last game to stay up and its happening every year whereby the so called weaker teams are targetting one win. For me its far better with 5 in each province."
Not true. We played our full strength team for every game and targeted every single game. We do not have the luxury of giving fringe players a chance in League games etc with a small enough panel.
We missed golden goal opportunities against Wexford and got caught by Dublin at the death.

Glensboy (Antrim) - Posts: 321 - 29/05/2023 19:39:55    2482735

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Replying To foreveryoung:  "Well it was heard of... Cork did Munster 5-in-a-row between 1975 and 1979. I was actually at the 1978 final, a game that Clare are still kicking themselves at how they left it after them. This year's final will be pure blood n guts stuff."
Cork won 5 Munster titles in a row between 1982-86

82 beat Waterford 5-31 to 3-6
83 beat Waterford
84 beat Tipperary 4-15 to 3-14
85 beat Tipperary 4-17 to 4-11
86 beat Clare 2-18 to 3-12

They won the AIF in 84 & 86, lost the AIF in 82 & 83 to a fine Kilkenny side. They lost the AISF in 85 to Galway 4-12 to 5-5.

Not only were they a brilliant team winning 5 Munster titles in a row, the hurling they played was rip roaring stuff and involved buckets of goals.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 29/05/2023 19:53:42    2482738

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "One final note, Pat Horgan is one of the greatest players ever to play the game of Hurling. 1-15 today and I think he'll come back next year. It will be a travesty if he doesn't win an All-Ireland. Harnedy also immense today.

Frontier1000 (Cork) - Posts: 15 - 28/05/2023 20:20:59 2482328

Hurling is a team game. Countless great hurlers (and footballers) down the years never won a Celtic Cross. Especially the great players from the smaller counties.
Spare us your 'travesty' remark about Pat Horgan, great player as he is. Maybe you should look a bit closer to home to realise why Horgan, and especially Cork are not where you imagine they should be."
Have to say I agree with Cockney Cat.

For over a decade Cork have built their team and game around Pat Horgan.

In contrast under Brian Lohan, Clare have reconditioned Tony Kelly's game around the needs of their team. Kelly works back into his own full back line as he knows he has quality forwards to find with a pass. Horgan is Cork's only real go to player to win a game. Yeah others chip in but when it comes to the death they look to one man time and again. I wonder what the other forwards think of that.

I think the reliance on Horgan has been detrimental to Cork hurling which is surprising. When winning all Ireland titles Cork were never reliant on one forward. Most teams who win things aren't.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 29/05/2023 20:17:46    2482742

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Replying To BaldyBadger:  "I don't think the score flattered them at all. A very soft penalty was the difference here. I thought Cork should have been further ahead at half time with goals keeping Limerick in it.
The spell after the penalty where Limerick tagged on a few scores won it for them. I feel that the lack of experience in places cost Cork today. A few pot shots from distance, bad wides at the wrong time.
I think if Cork had won or drew, Limerick would not look back and say that they were robbed, just as I am not looking back and saying Cork were."
The statistics don't back up what you're saying Badger:

Limerick had 49 shots to Cork's 40
Limerick had 57% possession
Limerick converted 57% of chances to Cork's 77%
Limerick scored 2-22 from play to Cork's 1-17
Limerick had 15 wides to Cork's 8

Had we lost we'd have thrown it away. We are improving in every game. The number of scores has risen in each game, 19-22-25-28.

I was standing on the terrace right behind where Gillane and O'Donoghue were. Both of them were at it, holding each other, hurley etc. The previous 3 balls O'Donoghue was all over Gillane. Possibly 3 fouls. I've no problem with that, his job is to defend the Cork goal and he ain't going to let anyone walk in. But Owens was always going to give one Gillane's way and when it came it happened to be in the square.

I think Limerick were very smart in how they exploited the Cork full back line. Remember it was 2 of the 3 taken go the cleaners in the 2021 final. Variation with high balls, diagonal, running at Cork etc. We could have had 7 goals yesterday. Gillane, Hayes, Flanagan all missed sitters. But they didn't go in and that threw Cork a lifeline. When we were 7 points up I thought that was a better reflection of Limerick's play than the final score.

Watching the balls come into our forwards in the last five minutes was heart warming. Hands up, high catches, dogged aggression. They were willing to get hurt to get us over the line. Even if we win nothing this year our Limerick team are a group to be immensely proud of.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 29/05/2023 20:40:17    2482743

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Replying To LarryOBrother:  "Think Kilkenny will win the All Ireland if they can get their best team out on the field. They looked very good yesterday in my opinion. Great shout at about 7/1 for anyone sceptic of Munster quality."
Not a prayer this Kilkenny team is one of the weakest Kilkenny teams I've seen in a long time.

Tiger1 (Wexford) - Posts: 340 - 29/05/2023 21:04:16    2482747

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Replying To foreveryoung:  "Yes, another year or two of conditioning could bring some of the newer lads up to the mark. However, quite a lot of that Cork team, in addition to Harnedy and Horgan, has been around a while. The goalie, the two corner-backs, the two Cahalane's, Conor Lehane, Luke Meade, Kieran Kingston, Darren Fitzgibbon (great player), Tim O'Mahoney, even Millerick who missed a year through injury, all have a lot of hurling done with nothing to show for it. So, I would be inclined to think that Cork need to be finding other players somewhere. I just can't see Cork winning an AI with some of these players that I have named. Barrett, the Downey's, Dalton and Roche, backed up by some more of their successful u-20's will have to be the men to do it."
The new players you mention have been brought in. It was they I was referring to when it comes to conditioning. The older players have been there a while and physically are well able to compete. Quite simply, they are in the mix, but just lacked the extra 1% to get the job done. Management will be searching for that over their now long break.
I know Robbie O'Flynn was injured, but every team has injuries. One player I am looking forward to seeing next year in a different role is Coleman. I think he could also play around the middle without the shackles of centre back now Joyce is in situ. He could really shine in that role.

BaldyBadger (Cork) - Posts: 313 - 30/05/2023 08:27:03    2482778

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Far from a weak team - Eoin Cody, TJ Reid, Adrian Mullen, Huw Lawlor, Eoin Murphy, Mikey Butler, Paddy Deegan would be on most teams in the country. They might have a bit of a tail but that "tail" consists of Martin Keoghan, Walter Walsh, Billy Drennan, Tom Phelan, Darragh Corcoran, David Blanchfield, John Donnelly, Cillian Buckley, Conor Fogarty, Richie Hogan and Padraig Walsh.
They won't be far away.

LarryOBrother (Wexford) - Posts: 412 - 30/05/2023 10:04:37    2482784

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Replying To Viking66:  "Then the same team just goes up and down? Except in Munster."
In fairness, look at the fare served up by Munster this year. Would you want to touch it? Waterford "dead and buried" after the first 3 games, sow it into a Tipp team strolling into the Munster final. You couldnt write the drama in Munster.

LohansRedHelmet (Clare) - Posts: 2697 - 30/05/2023 10:13:31    2482785

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Replying To BaldyBadger:  "In response to that, I'd say another year or two of conditioning for those young forwards will make a difference in terms of being out muscled in years to come. I would say that Horgan will be a huge loss indeed and it will be difficult to reach lace him. Every county has a marquee forward or two like this. Reid for Kilkenny jumps out as a similar case.
However, sometimes the sum of the parts is better than the singular star. You can only play with what you have and get the best out of it."
Cork I think just don't have the quality needed to be winning an all Ireland the keeper full back half the forward line are not going to get you past the Limericks Kilkennys etc they just havnt got the quality needed to be champs

PatKeyes73 (Limerick) - Posts: 23 - 30/05/2023 10:18:20    2482790

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Replying To Viking66:  "Problem is that if we have less games people will complain that we have less games."
The less games should come from the competitions that no one has interest in. Like the league. or at least start making it the top two play to decide winner.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 3044 - 30/05/2023 12:55:48    2482861

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Replying To LohansRedHelmet:  "In fairness, look at the fare served up by Munster this year. Would you want to touch it? Waterford "dead and buried" after the first 3 games, sow it into a Tipp team strolling into the Munster final. You couldnt write the drama in Munster."
Bang on the money LRH. I would also add the two Clare games last year and indeed the WD/Tipp and The WD/LK games

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4490 - 30/05/2023 14:13:56    2482899

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Bang on the money LRH. I would also add the two Clare games last year and indeed the WD/Tipp and The WD/LK games"
The Munster final last year was the best match I ever saw.

LohansRedHelmet (Clare) - Posts: 2697 - 30/05/2023 14:24:58    2482907

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Munster hurling final to be played in Gaelic Grounds. Clare did not want to play in Cork. Gaelic Grounds suits Clare after their win a few weeks ago.

fainleog (Limerick) - Posts: 602 - 30/05/2023 14:34:36    2482917

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Replying To Tiger1:  "Not a prayer this Kilkenny team is one of the weakest Kilkenny teams I've seen in a long time."
Easy to say that, but the margins can be very small. I've mentioned this before, but if Galway drew with or lost to Dublin in our final game of last year's Leinster championship, then Kilkenny were out of the championship completely.
We won the game, Kilkenny beat us in the Leinster final, hammered Clare in the All-Ireland semi and gave Limerick a right run of it in the final.
There are very few absolutes in sport, especially when a team's performance can fluctuate so greatly.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if Kilkenny found themselves in another All-Ireland final this year, but at the same time it wouldn't shock me if they were beaten by any of the remaining Munster teams or Galway.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2321 - 30/05/2023 14:37:33    2482918

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Replying To LohansRedHelmet:  "The Munster final last year was the best match I ever saw."
An absolutely savage battle. Watched from the town end terrace. There was a group of Clare lads in front of us, older lads, late 50's, 60's. They started off with the mind games, only here for the day out. When Tony Kelly's sideline went over they went ballistic. Who could blame them. We just edged it out in extra time. It was a pleasure to be there. I walked away from there that day thinking that if we met Clare again in 2022 it would be even tougher.

A year on & Clare have beaten us in championship and we're playing Clare again. Couldn't ask for more at this point.

Through the years Limerick v Clare games have served up history in abundance. We were devastated in 95 but a faster, fitter and better Clare team swept us aside. Ciaran's point in 1996. Ger Loughnane gallant in defeat after the game, talking about the sea of colour as Clare drove to the stadium, Green & White, Saffron & Blue. Brilliant occasions etched in the memory forever.

Looking forward to the latest episode!

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 30/05/2023 14:58:09    2482932

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