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Replying To macca999: "Ciaran Whelan on the latest Podcast with RTE mentioning Cavan could be extra motivated to finish top of Division 3 this weekend as Westmeath get to a Leinster Final as would mean they enter Sam Maguire.
Some here have said its not the true? Either way, again shows its not clear cut if someone like Ciaran Whelan doesn't know.
This example raises question also, if true that westmeath getting to Leinster final adds extra place to Division 3, does it go to the team that finishes top of the table or whoever wins the div 3 league final?" Westmeath getting to a Leinster final gives an extra qualifying spot to the league. The Division 3 winner would benefit.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7098 - 25/03/2023 10:53:29
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Replying To legendzxix: "Westmeath getting to a Leinster final gives an extra qualifying spot to the league. The Division 3 winner would benefit." How many times! This is NOT correct. I heard Ciaran Whelan say this also and was amazed by his lack of understanding.
He also didn't understand that it is irrelevant who comes first or second in the league phase in Division 3. The winner of the Division 3 final ranks ahead (15th) of the loser (16th). But it doesn't really matter in this case as number 15 cannot qualify for the Sam Maguire this year via the league.
See earlier post on this. [url=]https://hoganstand.com/Forum/FindPost?MessageID=2465619
CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 77 - 25/03/2023 13:07:54
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Replying To legendzxix: "Westmeath getting to a Leinster final gives an extra qualifying spot to the league. The Division 3 winner would benefit." No, it would make them a 2nd seed instead of a 4th seed.
But the same 16 Counties would still qualify.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 629 - 25/03/2023 14:25:30
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I want to give the benefit of the doubt here.
Recently, I read a piece by John Fogarty (Examiner) explaining how the AIC works and he also mentioned something like 'if Westmeath gets to a Leinster Final, it'll free up another league berth for someone else'. As I highly respect John, I scratched my head until I came up with another way of thinking.
You could start with saying that 9 berths are reserved for Prov Finalists/Prior Tailteann Champ, with remaining 7 berths for other top league placings. If Westmeath repeats as Lein Finalist, then the 9 drops to 8 and the 7 climbs to another 8. Semantics - to my mind, whether 7 or 8 from the league, either count is part of the Top 14 (my way of looking at it).
Clear?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2244 - 26/03/2023 17:21:35
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Replying To omahant: "I want to give the benefit of the doubt here.
Recently, I read a piece by John Fogarty (Examiner) explaining how the AIC works and he also mentioned something like 'if Westmeath gets to a Leinster Final, it'll free up another league berth for someone else'. As I highly respect John, I scratched my head until I came up with another way of thinking.
You could start with saying that 9 berths are reserved for Prov Finalists/Prior Tailteann Champ, with remaining 7 berths for other top league placings. If Westmeath repeats as Lein Finalist, then the 9 drops to 8 and the 7 climbs to another 8. Semantics - to my mind, whether 7 or 8 from the league, either count is part of the Top 14 (my way of looking at it).
Clear?" If the league top 14 make the provincial finals, the All-Ireland series will be the top 14, Westmeath and Sligo or Leitrim.
If Westmeath make the Leinster final, the All-Ireland series will still be the top 14, Westmeath and Sligo or Leitrim.
The reason being that Westmeath making the provincial final does free up a spot for the league. At the same time it means that 1 county in the top 14 will have missed out on the provincial final. The extra league spot is taken by the 14th team.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7098 - 26/03/2023 19:13:09
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Replying To legendzxix: "If the league top 14 make the provincial finals, the All-Ireland series will be the top 14, Westmeath and Sligo or Leitrim.
If Westmeath make the Leinster final, the All-Ireland series will still be the top 14, Westmeath and Sligo or Leitrim.
The reason being that Westmeath making the provincial final does free up a spot for the league. At the same time it means that 1 county in the top 14 will have missed out on the provincial final. The extra league spot is taken by the 14th team." Would you tweak the seeding for 'Div 3 top 2' to 13 & 14 - wouldn't teams in Top Div 3/Bottom Div 2 strive more to get into Sam?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2244 - 28/03/2023 16:23:16
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Replying To omahant: "Would you tweak the seeding for 'Div 3 top 2' to 13 & 14 - wouldn't teams in Top Div 3/Bottom Div 2 strive more to get into Sam?" The league ladder is 1 to 32. Promoted teams ranked above relegated teams. There can be no jumping that agreed ladder through league qualification. By all means gain qualification through provincial championships and the Tailteann Cup.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7098 - 28/03/2023 17:34:18
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Replying To legendzxix: "The league ladder is 1 to 32. Promoted teams ranked above relegated teams. There can be no jumping that agreed ladder through league qualification. By all means gain qualification through provincial championships and the Tailteann Cup." That 1 to 32 is determined 'after' applying promotion/relegation (div composition of the following year's league). I think there is more to gain by ranking Div 2 5th/6th, in addition to 7th/8th (Div 2 bottom 4), lower than 'Div 3 top 2' for the purpose of Sam seeding, than sticking with the 'purity' of your argument (and it is pure/valid).
Or, how about a two-group 'mid 16' in the NFL (Divs 1, 2A/2B & 3) - then the top 3 in each middle group would likely make Sam with your ranking in tact, while only the group winners would go up?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2244 - 29/03/2023 15:07:36
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Replying To omahant: "That 1 to 32 is determined 'after' applying promotion/relegation (div composition of the following year's league). I think there is more to gain by ranking Div 2 5th/6th, in addition to 7th/8th (Div 2 bottom 4), lower than 'Div 3 top 2' for the purpose of Sam seeding, than sticking with the 'purity' of your argument (and it is pure/valid).
Or, how about a two-group 'mid 16' in the NFL (Divs 1, 2A/2B & 3) - then the top 3 in each middle group would likely make Sam with your ranking in tact, while only the group winners would go up?" If the top 2 in Division 3 are to be ranked 5th and 6th in Division 2, they can earn it on the field of play in Division 2.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7098 - 29/03/2023 16:02:50
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