National Forum

Lack Of Jeopardy In Division 1 Hurling

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Lot of arguing going on here about something that happened 15 years ago.

Probably the main point of the time was focusing on what the planned restructure for 2009 (going back to a Div. 1 of eight teams, and a Div. 2 of the next eight) would mean. Meyler's main point, and I remember it well, was to argue for the retention of a structure of two groups of six.

In the end, it went back to divisions of eight anyway, with Wexford being relegated. But the divisions of eight system only lasted three years before being judged unsatisfactory and being changed back to two groups of six instead. It's been that way ever since, as there's never been any great appetite to go back to divisions of eight since the last time it was tried. Surely relevant to the broader discussion here.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2854 - 02/03/2023 11:14:38    2461369

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Lot of arguing going on here about something that happened 15 years ago.

Probably the main point of the time was focusing on what the planned restructure for 2009 (going back to a Div. 1 of eight teams, and a Div. 2 of the next eight) would mean. Meyler's main point, and I remember it well, was to argue for the retention of a structure of two groups of six.

In the end, it went back to divisions of eight anyway, with Wexford being relegated. But the divisions of eight system only lasted three years before being judged unsatisfactory and being changed back to two groups of six instead. It's been that way ever since, as there's never been any great appetite to go back to divisions of eight since the last time it was tried. Surely relevant to the broader discussion here."
Yes, Meyler was correct about the changes that were introduced then, and as you say quickly gotten rid of. The proposals for changes now would run into same problem.

There is no merit for any of those concerned for Dublin or Wexford, for example, to be hurling Kildare or Meath. Would be meaningless to the first two and humiliating for the others.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3501 - 02/03/2023 14:33:32    2461419

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At the end of it all, given there is a round robin happening in less than 6 weeks, it is probably a fair observation that nobody cares what the format is bar at this time of the year.
I mean, who remembers who won the league? Nobody.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1336 - 02/03/2023 15:08:50    2461433

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "At the end of it all, given there is a round robin happening in less than 6 weeks, it is probably a fair observation that nobody cares what the format is bar at this time of the year.
I mean, who remembers who won the league? Nobody."
I remember Waterford won it last year :)

But go back to 2021, when there was no outright winner (Galway & Kilkenny were declared joint winners after they finished top of the groups and didn't subsequently meet in the championship), and nobody seemed to care too much, and I think the point is proven all right.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2854 - 02/03/2023 15:41:16    2461439

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "At the end of it all, given there is a round robin happening in less than 6 weeks, it is probably a fair observation that nobody cares what the format is bar at this time of the year.
I mean, who remembers who won the league? Nobody."
This no one cares about the league so don't change seems to be a recurring argument. I think those teams trying to develop as they are promoted from 2a probably do care about the league. So why keep the current skewed league system that the top teams 'don't care about' and those trying to develop would like to change?

Firceall (Offaly) - Posts: 35 - 02/03/2023 17:12:58    2461472

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "At the end of it all, given there is a round robin happening in less than 6 weeks, it is probably a fair observation that nobody cares what the format is bar at this time of the year.
I mean, who remembers who won the league? Nobody."
A lot of people will remember who is in Division 1 in football and there is respect for it. The top 9 counties are in Division 1 without any jeopardy. Division 1A (1-6) and Division 1B (7-12) will be a fair earning of league status.
The All-Ireland football 16 will more or less be spread across Division 1 and Division 2. The Tailteann Cup will more or less be spread across Division 3 and Division 4.
The provincial hurling 11 can more or less be spread across Division 1A (1-6) and Division 1B (7-12).

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 02/03/2023 17:37:32    2461477

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Replying To Firceall:  "This no one cares about the league so don't change seems to be a recurring argument. I think those teams trying to develop as they are promoted from 2a probably do care about the league. So why keep the current skewed league system that the top teams 'don't care about' and those trying to develop would like to change?"
The top teams cared enough to try and avoid Division 1B (7 to 12). It should be brought back so that they can again show how much they care!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 02/03/2023 17:40:35    2461479

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Replying To Firceall:  "This no one cares about the league so don't change seems to be a recurring argument. I think those teams trying to develop as they are promoted from 2a probably do care about the league. So why keep the current skewed league system that the top teams 'don't care about' and those trying to develop would like to change?"
:Nobody cares about the league" is simply not true.Its a very important competition for the top teams to try out new players and for teams trying to grow its great experience for their players.That its not the championship is clear but its importance means the GAA have to get its structures right for the good of hurling.

jobber (Westmeath) - Posts: 1698 - 03/03/2023 08:47:51    2461512

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If the current Division 1 format is to remain, I suggest the following tweaks:
1) The top 2 in each group rewarded with an extra home game in the following year.
2) The bottom team in each group relegated.
3) The Division 2A finalists both promoted.
4) The promoted teams being rewarded with an extra home game also.
5) 2nd and 4th swapping groups for the following year.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 03/03/2023 09:30:52    2461517

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Realistically the league should be reduced further and just have a further expansion to the championship.

If no-one cares about a competition what's the point in it. A hurling championship with more games between Leinster and Munster teams could be great.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4519 - 03/03/2023 12:01:01    2461551

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Realistically the league should be reduced further and just have a further expansion to the championship.

If no-one cares about a competition what's the point in it. A hurling championship with more games between Leinster and Munster teams could be great."
The provincial councils wouldn't allow it. What you'd want though is to start the season with the provincial round robins and provincial finals. After that then have a 10 or 12 team single group All-Ireland championship. Top 4 or 6 into the All-Ireland knockout rounds.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 03/03/2023 14:09:46    2461593

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Realistically the league should be reduced further and just have a further expansion to the championship.

If no-one cares about a competition what's the point in it. A hurling championship with more games between Leinster and Munster teams could be great."
All the teams care about the League but they are looking to get different things out of it. They care about it in different ways. Yes, it's not as important winning League games as Championship games. But that was always the case as far back as I remember. I remember League games played on bogs where the ball would be brown and nearly invisible and that's if it didn't sink into the turf altogether.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15666 - 03/03/2023 14:17:37    2461600

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Realistically the league should be reduced further and just have a further expansion to the championship.

If no-one cares about a competition what's the point in it. A hurling championship with more games between Leinster and Munster teams could be great."
Yes. This.
Get rid of Walsh Cup, start league and have groups of 4. Then have semi final, final. Give a 2-3 week break before Championship then because a championship starting the week after the league final is asking for trouble.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1336 - 03/03/2023 14:30:29    2461603

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "Yes. This.
Get rid of Walsh Cup, start league and have groups of 4. Then have semi final, final. Give a 2-3 week break before Championship then because a championship starting the week after the league final is asking for trouble."
Why do there have to be SFs and Finals in a League?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15666 - 03/03/2023 14:47:35    2461607

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Replying To jobber:  ":Nobody cares about the league" is simply not true.Its a very important competition for the top teams to try out new players and for teams trying to grow its great experience for their players.That its not the championship is clear but its importance means the GAA have to get its structures right for the good of hurling."
If top teams started to play weakened teams and trying new players during the championship would you say they still cared about the championship?

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1468 - 03/03/2023 14:58:11    2461613

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There are two different paths/fork on the road - play the NHL stand alone or merge it into the AIC.

1) NHL Stand Alone
- Prior year 'AIC SF 4' and NHL 'Div 2A Promoted Finalists 2' (1-4 & 11-12 in Div 1A) play the 'Other 6' (5-10 in Div 1B).
- Top 4 in a combined 12-team, 6-match table to SFs.
- Bottom 2 of 12 relegated.

While promoted teams may still get hammered, they can improve against 'mid-ranked teams', avoiding the top 4.
Anticipation of top 4 head-to-head meetings in the KO SFs/Final stage should grow as they avoid each other in the 'inter group' phase.

2) AIC/NHL Merged
- Provincial Championship (PC) groups retained for both PC phase and non-PC phase (replacing NHL).
- PCs played 'intra group' (no change), with the top 2 in each group (4 or 5 matches per team) advancing to respective PC Finals (after 25 matches total, M10 & L15).
- Prior to PCs, all 'inter group' pairings are played (5 or 6 matches per team, 30 matches total, M5 v L6), contributing to a full 10-match round robin (5 at home, 5 away) per team.
- Based on the 10-match table, the top 6 and both PC Champs advance to AI KO QFs, with PC Champs most likely earning byes to SFs by advancing twice.

What do you think?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3235 - 03/03/2023 16:03:14    2461637

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Replying To Viking66:  "Why do there have to be SFs and Finals in a League?"
There doesn't.
But I bet you 1 thing, if there was no reward whatsoever you would see games being played like even more pre seasion friendlies.
And, if there is a SF and Final and a few weeks off after it, I can bet you 1 thing every team would want to be in that final because you'll have an advantage of 2 more matches against top teams than the team who doesn't get there.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1336 - 03/03/2023 16:17:28    2461640

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Replying To Viking66:  "Why do there have to be SFs and Finals in a League?"
In hurling it's because of the evolution from 8 teams to 6 teams in divisions. When there were quarter-finals and relegation finals, all teams had at least 6 games.
With the expansion of the championship to round robins, the league could reduce but counties are voting to retain the money coming in from the hurling league semi-finals and finals.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 04/03/2023 17:36:18    2461791

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