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Lack Of Jeopardy In Division 1 Hurling

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Replying To preddan: "I would think about going back to the real old system, division 1 - Limerick,Galway,Waterford,Cork,Tipperary,Kilkenny,Clare, Wexford. Division 2- Dublin,Westmeath,Antrim,laois,Offaly,Kerry,Kildare, Carlow Division 3- Meath,Down, Derry,Wicklow,London,Mayo,Tyrone,Armagh,Sligo Division 4-donegal, Warwickshire, Monaghan,Louth,Fermanagh, Roscommon, Leitrim,Cavan, Longford Division 2 would be a very good competitive division all good games" Fair imbalance in division 3 though. Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11849 - 27/02/2023 16:26:46 2460751 Link
Replying To preddan: "I would think about going back to the real old system, division 1 - Limerick,Galway,Waterford,Cork,Tipperary,Kilkenny,Clare, Wexford. Division 2- Dublin,Westmeath,Antrim,laois,Offaly,Kerry,Kildare, Carlow Division 3- Meath,Down, Derry,Wicklow,London,Mayo,Tyrone,Armagh,Sligo Division 4-donegal, Warwickshire, Monaghan,Louth,Fermanagh, Roscommon, Leitrim,Cavan, Longford Division 2 would be a very good competitive division all good games" Divisions of 8 suit football. Divisions of 6 seem to be the best approach for hurling. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7844 - 27/02/2023 16:27:31 2460752 Link
Replying To jobber: "Absolutely right. The powers that be promoted Westmeath effectively from Division 3 to division 1 in with Limerick, Galway,Clare, Cork and Wexford when any blind fool can see that we should be in the division with Antrim,Laois,Dublin, Waterford and Wexford with Tipp and Kilkenny going the other way. That of course would be logical and benefit hurling. The problem of course is that Waterford,Wexford and maybe Dublin dont like this and the top 6 have the fear of being relegated." Yeah, Westmeath should be in Division 1B with Antrim, Laois and 3 counties from the top 9. Within the current format, relegating 1 from 12 is not enough. If the current format is to be retained, both 6th placed teams in Division 1 should be relegated. The top 2 in Division 2A should be promoted. It'll give the top 2 in 2A a year in Division 1 a year with valuable lessons. My preference is a return to 1A for 1 to 6 and 1B for 7 to 12. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7844 - 27/02/2023 16:37:56 2460756 Link
Replying To Pope_Benedict: "Galway won the League, Leinster title, and all ireland in 2017, while failing to promote from div2 the very same season, after just one early season NHL loss to Wexford. The 2013 all ireland semis were contested by the sides that contested the div1 relegation playoff, and div2 promotion playoff of 2013. That was Clare Cork Dublin and Limerick iirc. 'Fear of being relegated' my ass." 2017 had a ridiculous format that you could win Division 1 without being promoted to 1A! The format was seriously flawed. They also had the ridiculous format that 5th played 6th in a relegation format! At a minimum, anyone setting that 2017 format would do the following: The 6th placed team in 1A being automatically relegated. If the Division 1 winner had finished 2nd, 3rd or 4th in 1B, they should be promoted with 5th in 1A relegated. The proper 1A and 1B format is: Top 2 in 1A into final. 6th in 1A relegated to 1B. Top 2 in 1B into final. 1B final winner promoted. 6th in 1B relegated to 2A. Not overly complicated at all but beyond the powers that be to put in place! :-D legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7844 - 27/02/2023 16:48:02 2460762 Link
Replying To BarneyGrant: "Dublin would win your Division Two doing handstands. Kildare wouldn't get within 30 points of our subs. Cop on." no proof or guarantee to dublin winning the division two doing handstands, on their day westmeath, laois and antrim could beat you, kerry and carlow (with full team) offaly could be competitive too. overall it would be a good competitive division, all teams capable of taking points off one another. and btw offaly and wexford won all irelands in the 90s out of division 2 so dont be so snobby preddan (Kildare) - Posts: 736 - 27/02/2023 17:14:50 2460774 Link
Replying To legendzxix: "2017 had a ridiculous format that you could win Division 1 without being promoted to 1A! The format was seriously flawed. They also had the ridiculous format that 5th played 6th in a relegation format! At a minimum, anyone setting that 2017 format would do the following: The 6th placed team in 1A being automatically relegated. If the Division 1 winner had finished 2nd, 3rd or 4th in 1B, they should be promoted with 5th in 1A relegated. The proper 1A and 1B format is: Top 2 in 1A into final. 6th in 1A relegated to 1B. Top 2 in 1B into final. 1B final winner promoted. 6th in 1B relegated to 2A. Not overly complicated at all but beyond the powers that be to put in place! :-D" I have to say we saw nothing wrong with the format, or the silverware distribution in 2017, up here in the Weshht. Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3422 - 27/02/2023 17:22:34 2460776 Link
Replying To Viking66: "Fair imbalance in division 3 though." yes but teams fluctuate in quality, meath would probably win easily enough,but you just dont know on any given day. unfortunately all teams in the country cant be at the same level and there will always be stronger and weaker teams, but at least they getting alot of games and getting more games than the present system. preddan (Kildare) - Posts: 736 - 27/02/2023 17:28:09 2460777 Link
Replying To legendzxix: "2017 had a ridiculous format that you could win Division 1 without being promoted to 1A! The format was seriously flawed. They also had the ridiculous format that 5th played 6th in a relegation format! At a minimum, anyone setting that 2017 format would do the following: The 6th placed team in 1A being automatically relegated. If the Division 1 winner had finished 2nd, 3rd or 4th in 1B, they should be promoted with 5th in 1A relegated. The proper 1A and 1B format is: Top 2 in 1A into final. 6th in 1A relegated to 1B. Top 2 in 1B into final. 1B final winner promoted. 6th in 1B relegated to 2A. Not overly complicated at all but beyond the powers that be to put in place! :-D" Never got League finals. They are purely commercial nonsense. A money making racket. Whoever finishes top in any division of any league should win it. Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11849 - 27/02/2023 17:32:55 2460779 Link
Replying To legendzxix: "2017 had a ridiculous format that you could win Division 1 without being promoted to 1A! The format was seriously flawed. They also had the ridiculous format that 5th played 6th in a relegation format! At a minimum, anyone setting that 2017 format would do the following: The 6th placed team in 1A being automatically relegated. If the Division 1 winner had finished 2nd, 3rd or 4th in 1B, they should be promoted with 5th in 1A relegated. The proper 1A and 1B format is: Top 2 in 1A into final. 6th in 1A relegated to 1B. Top 2 in 1B into final. 1B final winner promoted. 6th in 1B relegated to 2A. Not overly complicated at all but beyond the powers that be to put in place! :-D" They did the opposite in 2017, dispensed with the div2 promotion playoff, and I can't recall if the div1 relegation playoff was retained?, but suspect it possibly was. Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3422 - 27/02/2023 17:36:13 2460782 Link
Replying To preddan: "no proof or guarantee to dublin winning the division two doing handstands, on their day westmeath, laois and antrim could beat you, kerry and carlow (with full team) offaly could be competitive too. overall it would be a good competitive division, all teams capable of taking points off one another. and btw offaly and wexford won all irelands in the 90s out of division 2 so dont be so snobby" It is not the 1990s. Nor is anything to do with snobbery. The last time Dublin were in same division (an eight team Division Two) as some of the teams you refer to (2006) they won 10 straight games in succession including play offs and a few by cricket scores. Dublin have stayed up by being first being able to compete with and then regularly beat the elite counties. The only teams I'd see at the moment who are possibly capable of following that path are Antrim and maybe Westmeath. I actually think the current set up suits both - apart from Westmeath admittedly being in a slightly stronger division but really only because Antrim and Laois are in the other. It should suit any team that is capable of at least beating one of the other teams that are in the relegation zone, and also crucially gives them game time against the best teams which is ideal preparation for championship. Teams that are not in the senior championship at the moment should really not be in the same league as the those that are, unless they earn that on the field. BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2557 - 27/02/2023 17:41:53 2460786 Link
Replying To preddan: "yes but teams fluctuate in quality, meath would probably win easily enough,but you just dont know on any given day. unfortunately all teams in the country cant be at the same level and there will always be stronger and weaker teams, but at least they getting alot of games and getting more games than the present system." You see it differently to me. I was thinking Meath, Down and possibly Derry would be a fair bit better than the rest tbh. Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11849 - 27/02/2023 17:57:24 2460797 Link
8 teams per division in hurling just wouldn't work, there just isn't enough depth for it to work. The gap between the 9th best team and the 16th best team is a lot larger than the gap between the 1st best team and the 8th best team. I even think you could argue that the gap between 2nd and 8th right now is a lot smaller than the gap between 9th and 12th. That makes 8 teams per division a non-runner. Then you're likely left with two groups of six. Having the six best teams in Division 1A was a bit dog-eat-dog and then we had Galway and Limerick winning the All-Ireland out of Division 1B in 2017 and 2018 respectively. At that stage, it felt like Division 1A was nearly too competitive whereas the top few teams in Division 1B were able to take it easier in the League campaign so that they could prepare better for the Championship all whilst vying for promotion to Division 1A. Is the current format perfect? No, it most certainly isn't. But no format is perfect and the current set-up seems like the least bad format. I know some people have brought up Westmeath as being one of the biggest losers from the current format but the bigger issue is that Division 1A is (inadvertently) stronger than Division 1B right now. If Westmeath were in 1B right now instead of Laois, I don't think anyone would be suggesting that Kilkenny, Tipperary, Waterford, Dublin, and Antrim were way too strong for them. ElGranSenor (Wexford) - Posts: 240 - 27/02/2023 19:09:30 2460808 Link
Replying To ExiledInWex: "That old system of 8 x Division 1 teams was a disaster because us, Wexford, Limerick, Clare at the time were under cooked when we came to play the big guns. How are Westmeath, Antrim, Offaly, etc ever to progress if they don't play the top counties in the league at least?" This is exactly why divisions of 8 did not work. 1 or 2 stronger counties were undercooked. With divisions of 6, the stronger counties in 1B were cooked! The initial drawback of divisions of 6 was that there were less games which meant less money. Now that the provincial round robins are established, the divisions of 6 should be fine. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7844 - 27/02/2023 19:39:37 2460816 Link
Replying To Viking66: "Or proved that non competitive league games in div1b were better down the line come championship because you can blood new players and try out new tactics without real fear of relegation." 1A managers should have taken a similar approach in 1A. Sure they don't want to get relegated but as it wasn't the end of the world, the onus should have been on 1A managers to find the right balance. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7844 - 27/02/2023 19:45:04 2460819 Link
Replying To preddan: "no proof or guarantee to dublin winning the division two doing handstands, on their day westmeath, laois and antrim could beat you, kerry and carlow (with full team) offaly could be competitive too. overall it would be a good competitive division, all teams capable of taking points off one another. and btw offaly and wexford won all irelands in the 90s out of division 2 so dont be so snobby" Barney overegged the pudding with the "handstands" remark all right, but still, put a perennial McCarthy Cup team like Dublin into any competition with a stack of teams who are normally McDonagh Cup apart from an occasional and usually short-lived stint in the higher level, and the McCarthy Cup team like Dublin are always going to be favourites to win it. Meanwhile, Offaly '95 and Wexford '96 may have won those All-Irelands off the back of being in Div. 2 earlier in those years, but they'd only been in Div. 2 for a year or two, and had relatively handy runs through it in their All-Ireland years as they built teams with an eye on the championship, fairly secure in the knowledge that they were odds on to be promoted anyway. In essence, they were examples of the scenario I outlined earlier, where the teams coming down from Div. 1 proved simply too good for the regular Div. 2 teams. That was the main fault with the 8 teams in Div. 1 and 8 teams in Div. 2 structure - you basically had a situation where the teams coming down would normally go back up fairly immediately, leading to a lot of yo-yo stuff. Don't know if anybody else remembers this, but at one stage, they tried to counteract the yo-yo stuff by introducing a system where three teams went down and three went up. Counties like Down, Antrim and Kerry all got stints in Div. 1 as a result, and Down even survived in the top division for a couple of years at one point, but as soon as the structure changed again a couple of years later, it went back to yo-yo stuff. Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2247 - 27/02/2023 19:57:10 2460822 Link
Replying To Pikeman96: "Barney overegged the pudding with the "handstands" remark all right, but still, put a perennial McCarthy Cup team like Dublin into any competition with a stack of teams who are normally McDonagh Cup apart from an occasional and usually short-lived stint in the higher level, and the McCarthy Cup team like Dublin are always going to be favourites to win it. Meanwhile, Offaly '95 and Wexford '96 may have won those All-Irelands off the back of being in Div. 2 earlier in those years, but they'd only been in Div. 2 for a year or two, and had relatively handy runs through it in their All-Ireland years as they built teams with an eye on the championship, fairly secure in the knowledge that they were odds on to be promoted anyway. In essence, they were examples of the scenario I outlined earlier, where the teams coming down from Div. 1 proved simply too good for the regular Div. 2 teams. That was the main fault with the 8 teams in Div. 1 and 8 teams in Div. 2 structure - you basically had a situation where the teams coming down would normally go back up fairly immediately, leading to a lot of yo-yo stuff. Don't know if anybody else remembers this, but at one stage, they tried to counteract the yo-yo stuff by introducing a system where three teams went down and three went up. Counties like Down, Antrim and Kerry all got stints in Div. 1 as a result, and Down even survived in the top division for a couple of years at one point, but as soon as the structure changed again a couple of years later, it went back to yo-yo stuff." In the 95/96 League we won div2 alright. But our opponents in the AIF that year failed to get promoted, finishing 3rd behind Laois. Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11849 - 28/02/2023 09:10:57 2460868 Link
Here's what I think. If you wanted to create jeopardy, you do away with head-to-head as a deciding factor for relegation. Once Wexford beat Westmeath, I think they didn't care about the league after that and sent out a team of lambs to the slaughter on Sunday. If there was the risk that Westmeath could pick up a win, and scoring difference became critical between them, there is no way Wexford would have sent out that team they did. But, hurling needs more middle of the road counties playing top teams. Aspiring to play them, beat them, if the game is ever to progress outside the traditional 10-12 counties. Westmeath will have learned more playing Cork at the weekend, Wexford last time out, Limerick etc than they ever will playing Division 2 counties. The frequency with which the top counties play one another, is tedious. I bring my 3 chaps to many Wexford matches and I must have seen Wexford play Clare 10 times in the last 5-6 years. But at the end of it all, nobody cares about the league anyway. ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1128 - 28/02/2023 09:59:02 2460885 Link
The top 9 in the country are Limerick, Kilkenny, Clare, Galway, Cork, Wexford, Waterford, Dublin and Tipperary. The next 9 are Antrim, Westmeath, Laois, Offaly, Carlow, Kerry, Kildare, Down and Meath. A division 1B that has 3 of the top 9 and 3 of the next 9 is fair. Sure Division 1A is dog eat dog but the onus should be on managers to find the right balance. When 1B was not a hindrance to winning an All-Ireland, it meant it provided a fair level of competition. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7844 - 28/02/2023 10:39:50 2460894 Link
Here's my 2 cents - Divisions of 8 were tried in hurling 2009-11, they simply don't work as the difference in quality is to vast at certain points of the ladder, it was literally the worst of a bad lot in terms of league set up's. - What's knocked division 1 back anyway is provincial round robins coming in, now teams have 2 leagues in the year 1 Feb-March, other Apr-May and it doesn't take long to know which is the priority. - No matter what way the league is set up someone will find an issue, to get a scenario to keep everyone happy is an impossible task in my view. TerribleFootwork (Wexford) - Posts: 1716 - 28/02/2023 10:57:27 2460901 Link
Point 2 there is the key one. The league is finished as a worthwhile competition, since the round robin expanded championship arrived on the scene. The league is basically a set of preseason challenge matches now, to prepare for the only competition that counts in April-July. Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3422 - 28/02/2023 11:16:46 2460908 Link