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Replying To Viking66: "Last year they could've been out of the AI series with a loss though. And that game was in Nowlan Park." Yes but they weren't.Anyway are we going to keep talking about results against kk as if that's what's define us that's what happens every year and if, we are happy beating kk and not looking at the bigger picture we are never going to win anything.
Tiger1 (Wexford) - Posts: 280 - 16/09/2023 07:26:09
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Replying To ExiledInWex: "Wexford (and Dublin and every other county) need to be trying to build a squad for 3-5 years time by which time the Limerick juggernaut will be at an end and to try to be the next big thing.
Being realistic, the best Rossiter, MD, etc can hope for is a Leinster title.
But, they need to be aiming to be big in a few years time because nobody can stop Limerick at the moment.
Wexford need 4-5-6 new starters next year because even though I would never retire any player some are nearing it. But look at TJ, 36 and still motoring for club and county. So retire nobody, Wexford need these players even if they end up as impact subs.
But the big thing for me is Wexford need to be winning a minor or u20 Leinster at least, and giving an All Ireland a good shot.
If they can't achieve it at that level, expecting them to step up at senior level is a big ask." I think 4-6 new starters this year is extremely optimistic. It's a reach, even for me, and you've often accused me of being unreasonably optimistic :-)
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13608 - 16/09/2023 08:37:31
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Replying To Tiger1: "Yes but they weren't.Anyway are we going to keep talking about results against kk as if that's what's define us that's what happens every year and if, we are happy beating kk and not looking at the bigger picture we are never going to win anything." Agree 100%. If we won our other 4 games and lost to KK every year we would likely be in a Leinster Final every year.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13608 - 16/09/2023 10:40:07
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Replying To Viking66: "Agree 100%. If we won our other 4 games and lost to KK every year we would likely be in a Leinster Final every year." I don't think anyone is suggesting just beating kilkenny is enough.
It is a very useful chink of light for optimism though.
It shows the level we are capable of.
This is a starting point, not the end goal.
If you can beat kilkenny on a good day, you can do the same with anyone bar limerick.
That's the part rossi needs to solve.
Also, I'd be optimistic about finding players.
It's helpful to win underage titles but not essential. If you got 3 or 4 prospects every year that would be enough.
So there's the recks, Donohoe, jippo, Rory, mac, chin, hopefully the two foleys.
Clarke, flood, mcguckian, Hearne
Higgins, Banville, c Foley
Then Lawlor, Scallan, Ryan, o hagan carley, Clancy
We are still producing decent players and another year will do a lot for those lads
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3080 - 17/09/2023 07:31:18
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Replying To Doylerwex: "I don't think anyone is suggesting just beating kilkenny is enough.
It is a very useful chink of light for optimism though.
It shows the level we are capable of.
This is a starting point, not the end goal.
If you can beat kilkenny on a good day, you can do the same with anyone bar limerick.
That's the part rossi needs to solve.
Also, I'd be optimistic about finding players.
It's helpful to win underage titles but not essential. If you got 3 or 4 prospects every year that would be enough.
So there's the recks, Donohoe, jippo, Rory, mac, chin, hopefully the two foleys.
Clarke, flood, mcguckian, Hearne
Higgins, Banville, c Foley
Then Lawlor, Scallan, Ryan, o hagan carley, Clancy
We are still producing decent players and another year will do a lot for those lads" ''We are still producing decent players''
That was a point I always wanted to discuss.
I wonder do we ever review our underage system and wonder why we produce a lot of decent -good hurlers but not a lot of why we don't produce top class inter county hurlers.
As in Hurler of the year contender type of players?
TJ Reid, Cian Lynch, Noel McGrath, Tony Kelly
If we won the All Ireland in 2019, I'd say Chin would of won hurler of the year but we still don't produce top of the charts type hurlers who can produce a Seanie Callanan, Aaron Gillane, Pat Horgan type performance.
I suppose Dublin would be similar to ourselves in that regard.
I still think a lot of the Wexford lads playing Gaelic football when they are younger means means less time with the hurl in the hand compared to the other players aforementioned.
Past hurler (None) - Posts: 794 - 17/09/2023 12:42:08
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Replying To Past hurler: "''We are still producing decent players''
That was a point I always wanted to discuss.
I wonder do we ever review our underage system and wonder why we produce a lot of decent -good hurlers but not a lot of why we don't produce top class inter county hurlers.
As in Hurler of the year contender type of players?
TJ Reid, Cian Lynch, Noel McGrath, Tony Kelly
If we won the All Ireland in 2019, I'd say Chin would of won hurler of the year but we still don't produce top of the charts type hurlers who can produce a Seanie Callanan, Aaron Gillane, Pat Horgan type performance.
I suppose Dublin would be similar to ourselves in that regard.
I still think a lot of the Wexford lads playing Gaelic football when they are younger means means less time with the hurl in the hand compared to the other players aforementioned." The players you mention there are star players. No other county has produced too many of them either. I'm not sure those truly elite players are "produced" tbh. They are probably born that way.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13608 - 17/09/2023 14:43:49
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Replying To Past hurler: "''We are still producing decent players''
That was a point I always wanted to discuss.
I wonder do we ever review our underage system and wonder why we produce a lot of decent -good hurlers but not a lot of why we don't produce top class inter county hurlers.
As in Hurler of the year contender type of players?
TJ Reid, Cian Lynch, Noel McGrath, Tony Kelly
If we won the All Ireland in 2019, I'd say Chin would of won hurler of the year but we still don't produce top of the charts type hurlers who can produce a Seanie Callanan, Aaron Gillane, Pat Horgan type performance.
I suppose Dublin would be similar to ourselves in that regard.
I still think a lot of the Wexford lads playing Gaelic football when they are younger means means less time with the hurl in the hand compared to the other players aforementioned." The players you mention are fantastic and they all have something in common. They came along at a time when the teams around them were competing at the top level.
This gives them the opportunity to express themselves and develop into something special.
Tj rieds nutritionist is from wexford, and worked with the footballers when Jason Ryan was there. He's also worked with Billy Walsh and Katie Taylor.
He did a minor study a few years back on player development to answer a burning question at the time. We had fairly weak minor teams, then the same lads seemed to take a big leap at 21 level.
The rationale was Fitzgibbom hurling. Our lads were technically at the level of the tipp, kk, Cork lads but our structures were wrong. Once they were introduced to that level we started winning 21 almost by accident.
I think the same logic applies here.
If we got seamie o hagan into a team that was winning he could be callinan.
If Kiely hadn't come along would gillane or lynch be reaching these heights?
We need to figure out how to light that spark.
We're already fit and fairly well coached. We now need a strong tactical plan and an excellent psychologist. That could be the difference between hitting the Post or not and beating Dublin, or digging the boot into westmeath instead of taking the foot of the gas. That's the difference between battling Joe mac or a packed Croke Park which is crucial to these younger players.
Imagine how good roc might be now if we had beaten kk before extra time that year.....
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3080 - 17/09/2023 16:01:15
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Replying To Doylerwex: "The players you mention are fantastic and they all have something in common. They came along at a time when the teams around them were competing at the top level.
This gives them the opportunity to express themselves and develop into something special.
Tj rieds nutritionist is from wexford, and worked with the footballers when Jason Ryan was there. He's also worked with Billy Walsh and Katie Taylor.
He did a minor study a few years back on player development to answer a burning question at the time. We had fairly weak minor teams, then the same lads seemed to take a big leap at 21 level.
The rationale was Fitzgibbom hurling. Our lads were technically at the level of the tipp, kk, Cork lads but our structures were wrong. Once they were introduced to that level we started winning 21 almost by accident.
I think the same logic applies here.
If we got seamie o hagan into a team that was winning he could be callinan.
If Kiely hadn't come along would gillane or lynch be reaching these heights?
We need to figure out how to light that spark.
We're already fit and fairly well coached. We now need a strong tactical plan and an excellent psychologist. That could be the difference between hitting the Post or not and beating Dublin, or digging the boot into westmeath instead of taking the foot of the gas. That's the difference between battling Joe mac or a packed Croke Park which is crucial to these younger players.
Imagine how good roc might be now if we had beaten kk before extra time that year....." There's a big difference between Callinan and O Hagan in fairness Doylerwex. O Hagan would need to do a lot of work at his finishing before he'd be a Callinan. He won alot of aerial ball out around the half forward line against Kilkenny in the u20 LSF but won nearly nothing in the final. He needs to find some consistency also. Agree 100% he'd be more likely to find this in a successful team.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13608 - 17/09/2023 20:05:05
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Replying To Doylerwex: "The players you mention are fantastic and they all have something in common. They came along at a time when the teams around them were competing at the top level.
This gives them the opportunity to express themselves and develop into something special.
Tj rieds nutritionist is from wexford, and worked with the footballers when Jason Ryan was there. He's also worked with Billy Walsh and Katie Taylor.
He did a minor study a few years back on player development to answer a burning question at the time. We had fairly weak minor teams, then the same lads seemed to take a big leap at 21 level.
The rationale was Fitzgibbom hurling. Our lads were technically at the level of the tipp, kk, Cork lads but our structures were wrong. Once they were introduced to that level we started winning 21 almost by accident.
I think the same logic applies here.
If we got seamie o hagan into a team that was winning he could be callinan.
If Kiely hadn't come along would gillane or lynch be reaching these heights?
We need to figure out how to light that spark.
We're already fit and fairly well coached. We now need a strong tactical plan and an excellent psychologist. That could be the difference between hitting the Post or not and beating Dublin, or digging the boot into westmeath instead of taking the foot of the gas. That's the difference between battling Joe mac or a packed Croke Park which is crucial to these younger players.
Imagine how good roc might be now if we had beaten kk before extra time that year....." Seamie O Hagan could be a Callanan? Please, stop.
countyman2022 (Wexford) - Posts: 715 - 18/09/2023 11:54:13
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Replying To countyman2022: "Seamie O Hagan could be a Callanan? Please, stop." It's hypothetical to be fair.
Also not surprising to me that this is the line you focused on in a fairly extensive and rational argument.
People who've never experienced success tend not to understand these things.
Chin is our most important player. He didn't play for wexford until he was almost fully grown.
He was bang average until the Davy era. Now he's a genuine star of the game.
Mcdonald is ten times the talent but half the player. This is the point.
Talent, nutrition, work, luck and attitude must all bond together to be at that level.
Any player can do it if the ingredients click at the right time in this way.
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3080 - 18/09/2023 15:57:57
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Replying To Viking66: "The players you mention there are star players. No other county has produced too many of them either. I'm not sure those truly elite players are "produced" tbh. They are probably born that way." There's certainly can argument to made for that.
Personally I believe they're born, then nurtured perfectly.
Lee Murphy is the best I ever saw in terms of talent and never hurled senior for wexford.
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3080 - 18/09/2023 16:01:24
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Replying To Doylerwex: "It's hypothetical to be fair.
Also not surprising to me that this is the line you focused on in a fairly extensive and rational argument.
People who've never experienced success tend not to understand these things.
Chin is our most important player. He didn't play for wexford until he was almost fully grown.
He was bang average until the Davy era. Now he's a genuine star of the game.
Mcdonald is ten times the talent but half the player. This is the point.
Talent, nutrition, work, luck and attitude must all bond together to be at that level.
Any player can do it if the ingredients click at the right time in this way." Didn't play until fully grown? He started Inter County senior championship as an u-21 and I can tell you he was far from fully grown back then. Hurler of the month in July 2014 as a 22 year old, long before Davy Fitz. He was a stand above on that u-21 team also. So I don't think you could say he was 'bang average' before Davy Fitz. Also don't think you could say Seamie O Hagan has done anything in a Wexford jersey to even suggest he could lace Seamie Callanan's boots. Not surprising to me that this is the line you focused on in a fairly extensive and rational argument. People who've no clue of hurling might argue that.
countyman2022 (Wexford) - Posts: 715 - 18/09/2023 17:04:33
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Replying To countyman2022: "Didn't play until fully grown? He started Inter County senior championship as an u-21 and I can tell you he was far from fully grown back then. Hurler of the month in July 2014 as a 22 year old, long before Davy Fitz. He was a stand above on that u-21 team also. So I don't think you could say he was 'bang average' before Davy Fitz. Also don't think you could say Seamie O Hagan has done anything in a Wexford jersey to even suggest he could lace Seamie Callanan's boots. Not surprising to me that this is the line you focused on in a fairly extensive and rational argument. People who've no clue of hurling might argue that." Chin was always athletic. He didn't really become a top class hurler until 17/18. Wasn't even the best the harriers had nevermind wexford.
Liam Dunne saw what he could become. It didn't actually materialise until davys time.
I'm not saying o hagan is going to be a star. I'm using him as an example.
You could just as easily use somebody like Oisín pepper. The whole point is then having the tools to become great and how exactly that happens.
I'm not saying I know. I am suggesting a reasonable explanation.
It didn't have to be callinan either. You could just as easily use Jack guiney as somebody who had every tool to be a legend of the game except discipline
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3080 - 18/09/2023 18:56:31
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Replying To countyman2022: "Didn't play until fully grown? He started Inter County senior championship as an u-21 and I can tell you he was far from fully grown back then. Hurler of the month in July 2014 as a 22 year old, long before Davy Fitz. He was a stand above on that u-21 team also. So I don't think you could say he was 'bang average' before Davy Fitz. Also don't think you could say Seamie O Hagan has done anything in a Wexford jersey to even suggest he could lace Seamie Callanan's boots. Not surprising to me that this is the line you focused on in a fairly extensive and rational argument. People who've no clue of hurling might argue that." In fairness to Doylerwex he knows plenty about hurling. I've seen O Hagan play numerous times and on his day he's looked very good, at fielding especially. I've never seen him have a great day as a finisher like Callanan has done consistently over his career though, although that could be said about many current great Senior intercounty hurlers, including Tony Kelly, Horgan and Reid most days I've seen them. Consistent goalscorers are sadly becoming a thing of the past as the modern game evolves.
If O Hagan ever has a year when he scores goals in every one of 7 or 8 championship games in a season like Callanan has done then Wexford will likely have won another All Ireland.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13608 - 18/09/2023 19:11:15
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Replying To Doylerwex: "Chin was always athletic. He didn't really become a top class hurler until 17/18. Wasn't even the best the harriers had nevermind wexford.
Liam Dunne saw what he could become. It didn't actually materialise until davys time.
I'm not saying o hagan is going to be a star. I'm using him as an example.
You could just as easily use somebody like Oisín pepper. The whole point is then having the tools to become great and how exactly that happens.
I'm not saying I know. I am suggesting a reasonable explanation.
It didn't have to be callinan either. You could just as easily use Jack guiney as somebody who had every tool to be a legend of the game except discipline" Discipline yes. But more importantly desire. If a lad doesn't want to be truly great at hurling he's not going to put the required work and commitment into it. And then it doesn't matter how talented he is to start with. Lee Chins hurling, as in stickwork, wasn't perfect at underage, but he really wanted it to be better and worked really hard to improve. He made many sacrifices to get as good as he got.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13608 - 19/09/2023 09:23:31
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Replying To Doylerwex: "Chin was always athletic. He didn't really become a top class hurler until 17/18. Wasn't even the best the harriers had nevermind wexford.
Liam Dunne saw what he could become. It didn't actually materialise until davys time.
I'm not saying o hagan is going to be a star. I'm using him as an example.
You could just as easily use somebody like Oisín pepper. The whole point is then having the tools to become great and how exactly that happens.
I'm not saying I know. I am suggesting a reasonable explanation.
It didn't have to be callinan either. You could just as easily use Jack guiney as somebody who had every tool to be a legend of the game except discipline" Discipline yes. But more importantly desire. If a lad doesn't want to be truly great at hurling he's not going to put the required work and commitment into it. And then it doesn't matter how talented he is to start with. Lee Chins hurling, as in stickwork, wasn't perfect at underage, but he really wanted it to be better and worked really hard to improve. He made many sacrifices to get as good as he got.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13608 - 19/09/2023 09:23:43
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The word " decent " was used by a poster a while back. That word should not be accepted as good enough. Some of the new panel members tried this year fell far short of decent. Given time and encouragement and possibly a psychologist on board some of those lads will improve. Some will not.
An example of this would be Liam Dunne and Martin Story. They were not considered good enough for the minor team but by god did they 'come good in the years to follow. The likes of o'Hagen may well become a great player but only if he's prepared to make the effort. All teams like Kilkenny, Galway, Clare, Tipperary, Waterford, Cork and Dublin are not going to sit back and be happy with where they are now. They will undoubtedly try to improve for next year and the following years.
We must try to raise the bar much higher than before. What better time with Keith Rositter and his backroom team to begin that process.
I have along with others have said we need a good psychologist. Games are usually won with the head as well as hurling ability and physicality.
Ticking all the boxes is not easy but it's what we must aim to do. Proper strength and conditioning is vital. There was obviously something wrong with
the way it was done this year with a huge amount of the players dropping like flies. This needs to be seriously examined. Beating The cats is great but we must target Galway and the munster teams.
If not we are going nowhere.
Magpie2 (Wexford) - Posts: 382 - 19/09/2023 12:57:49
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Replying To Magpie2: "The word " decent " was used by a poster a while back. That word should not be accepted as good enough. Some of the new panel members tried this year fell far short of decent. Given time and encouragement and possibly a psychologist on board some of those lads will improve. Some will not.
An example of this would be Liam Dunne and Martin Story. They were not considered good enough for the minor team but by god did they 'come good in the years to follow. The likes of o'Hagen may well become a great player but only if he's prepared to make the effort. All teams like Kilkenny, Galway, Clare, Tipperary, Waterford, Cork and Dublin are not going to sit back and be happy with where they are now. They will undoubtedly try to improve for next year and the following years.
We must try to raise the bar much higher than before. What better time with Keith Rositter and his backroom team to begin that process.
I have along with others have said we need a good psychologist. Games are usually won with the head as well as hurling ability and physicality.
Ticking all the boxes is not easy but it's what we must aim to do. Proper strength and conditioning is vital. There was obviously something wrong with
the way it was done this year with a huge amount of the players dropping like flies. This needs to be seriously examined. Beating The cats is great but we must target Galway and the munster teams.
If not we are going nowhere." I'd agree with every word of that post.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13608 - 19/09/2023 14:06:41
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Replying To Viking66: "I'd agree with every word of that post." Second that
Throughthemidfieldhewasstormin (Wexford) - Posts: 274 - 19/09/2023 15:56:39
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Replying To Magpie2: "The word " decent " was used by a poster a while back. That word should not be accepted as good enough. Some of the new panel members tried this year fell far short of decent. Given time and encouragement and possibly a psychologist on board some of those lads will improve. Some will not.
An example of this would be Liam Dunne and Martin Story. They were not considered good enough for the minor team but by god did they 'come good in the years to follow. The likes of o'Hagen may well become a great player but only if he's prepared to make the effort. All teams like Kilkenny, Galway, Clare, Tipperary, Waterford, Cork and Dublin are not going to sit back and be happy with where they are now. They will undoubtedly try to improve for next year and the following years.
We must try to raise the bar much higher than before. What better time with Keith Rositter and his backroom team to begin that process.
I have along with others have said we need a good psychologist. Games are usually won with the head as well as hurling ability and physicality.
Ticking all the boxes is not easy but it's what we must aim to do. Proper strength and conditioning is vital. There was obviously something wrong with
the way it was done this year with a huge amount of the players dropping like flies. This needs to be seriously examined. Beating The cats is great but we must target Galway and the munster teams.
If not we are going nowhere." It was me that used the term decent. It was intended as the starting point for young prospects rather than the end goal.
I agree 100% with your post.
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3080 - 19/09/2023 16:56:38
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