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Replying To Maroonatic: "I started laughing at 'he played the game at a reasonably high level'" As did I.
Freethinker (Wicklow) - Posts: 1297 - 12/10/2022 10:16:41
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Replying To Viking66: "I'm not saying scores are lower. I'm saying there's less excitement. Less balls into the square. Less kicking the ball. Less football and more handball. Less risk taking. Less drama. Less low percentage balls in when you really don't know what's going to happen next!" I really don't know what games you are watching. At intercounty level there are now more balls being kicked long, unless you missed the semis and finals last year. The same applies at club level. It's actually unbelievable that you admit that the scoring averages are gone up but you say there is less excitement. We have faster, more skilled, higher scoring games but people still think there is a major issue. I give up.
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8191 - 12/10/2022 10:17:10
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Replying To Kickitout: "I think this year has being a good year for football lots of exciting games a good few not so exciting either but thar has always being the way , they need stop messing with the rules the advance mark is a joke referee blowing whistle some players put up hand some play on a joke , and now talking about only so many hand passes I think referee has enough do beside trying count that also not kicking it back to goalie don't agree sure Is the goalie not part of the play it's up to opposite team to push up on there men thar will stop a lot of that , you would think the way some people portray football that it's worse game ever ,, look at hurling short puck outs lots hand passes and 100 yard frees or goalie drives it 100 yard forward get it over bar no. Great skill required there ,, stop messing with the rules and sure If u don't like the game don't go watch it simple as that ,," You are right to point out the issues with hurling. Imo it is a much less attractive game than it used to be. I've watched a lot of Galway club hurling games this year and a lot of them have been fairly boring. Indeed Pat Spillane did point this out recently and he was right to do so. But the fact that hurling has gone down the same tedious route as gaelic football and has become blighted with over-use of the handpass, indirect lateral play, and obsessed with possession at all costs is nothing to gloat about. To me both products are nowhere near as good as they used to be and the proof will come with people voting with their feet , continued falling attendances with people shifting more from attending games to just watching them on tv.
PoolSturgeon (Galway) - Posts: 1963 - 12/10/2022 10:48:35
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Replying To TheFlaker: "I really don't know what games you are watching. At intercounty level there are now more balls being kicked long, unless you missed the semis and finals last year. The same applies at club level. It's actually unbelievable that you admit that the scoring averages are gone up but you say there is less excitement. We have faster, more skilled, higher scoring games but people still think there is a major issue. I give up." Just because scoring levels have gone up does not guarantee more excitement. Look at basketball where there are scores almost every 30 seconds but the first 3 quarters can be a bore.
I think what people miss, or would rather see is the excitement of a battle for possession, which is often missing when completing a 3 yard handpass to someone unmarked. The drama of what's going to happen next might have fallen out of the game a bit.
And to clarify I don't think anybody is disputing that today's players are better, fitter, more prepared and skilful than ever before.
Cnocrua (Meath) - Posts: 2 - 12/10/2022 10:52:25
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Replying To Farney1990: "Referees are bad enough without implementing any more rules to make them worse." Yeah it's the Refs fault.. not the training or support they receive or anything else which isn't good enough
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3680 - 12/10/2022 11:29:06
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Replying To Cnocrua: "Just because scoring levels have gone up does not guarantee more excitement. Look at basketball where there are scores almost every 30 seconds but the first 3 quarters can be a bore.
I think what people miss, or would rather see is the excitement of a battle for possession, which is often missing when completing a 3 yard handpass to someone unmarked. The drama of what's going to happen next might have fallen out of the game a bit.
And to clarify I don't think anybody is disputing that today's players are better, fitter, more prepared and skilful than ever before." My overall point is for the majority games are better and more exciting. The business end of the championship shows this year on year. People are never happy.
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8191 - 12/10/2022 11:50:18
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Replying To TheFlaker: "My overall point is for the majority games are better and more exciting. The business end of the championship shows this year on year. People are never happy." Add up the minutes in any modern game where one team has the ball and the other doesn't get near it. This figure will be far higher for any modern game than any game over 10 years ago. Lateral and backward handpassing for minutes on end isn't exciting for me. At intercounty or club level. Or for most other supporters. You are lucky you enjoy it so much I wish I was more like you!
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14123 - 12/10/2022 13:33:58
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Replying To TheFlaker: "I really don't know what games you are watching. At intercounty level there are now more balls being kicked long, unless you missed the semis and finals last year. The same applies at club level. It's actually unbelievable that you admit that the scoring averages are gone up but you say there is less excitement. We have faster, more skilled, higher scoring games but people still think there is a major issue. I give up." Beauty is in the eye of the beholder TheFlaker.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6145 - 12/10/2022 14:08:47
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Replying To PoolSturgeon: "You are right to point out the issues with hurling. Imo it is a much less attractive game than it used to be. I've watched a lot of Galway club hurling games this year and a lot of them have been fairly boring. Indeed Pat Spillane did point this out recently and he was right to do so. But the fact that hurling has gone down the same tedious route as gaelic football and has become blighted with over-use of the handpass, indirect lateral play, and obsessed with possession at all costs is nothing to gloat about. To me both products are nowhere near as good as they used to be and the proof will come with people voting with their feet , continued falling attendances with people shifting more from attending games to just watching them on tv." Falling attendances? Football q-finals 2022 Derry v Clare and Dublin v Cork att.50,874. Q-finals Galway v Armagh and Kerry v Mayo, 71,353. Semi-final Galway v Derry and the Tailteann Cup Final 68,830. Semi-final Kerry v Dublin 73,609. Final Kerry v Galway 82,300. There's nothing shabby about any of those attendances. Falling attendances my a**e.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6145 - 12/10/2022 14:18:52
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Replying To Viking66: "Add up the minutes in any modern game where one team has the ball and the other doesn't get near it. This figure will be far higher for any modern game than any game over 10 years ago. Lateral and backward handpassing for minutes on end isn't exciting for me. At intercounty or club level. Or for most other supporters. You are lucky you enjoy it so much I wish I was more like you!" Most other supporters?
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6145 - 12/10/2022 14:21:08
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Replying To Viking66: "Add up the minutes in any modern game where one team has the ball and the other doesn't get near it. This figure will be far higher for any modern game than any game over 10 years ago. Lateral and backward handpassing for minutes on end isn't exciting for me. At intercounty or club level. Or for most other supporters. You are lucky you enjoy it so much I wish I was more like you!" I don't enjoy it all. But the criticism and call for change for change sake is ridiculous. I have been involved in dreadful games this year, and last year, but on a whole it's a good spectacle. People seem to think there is this widespread cagey affair in every game from 14s through to seniors. It's absolute nonsense. The game will evolve. I think the current fly keeper thing is very interesting and is forcing coaches to rethink and adapt. But that will change as well.
My point is changes will happen, rules will change but overall we should be happy. I will listen to most ideas such as changing the kickout rule( which i don't agree with) or even trying things like not being allowed go back into your own half once you are in the opposition half but that could also lead to even more mass defence systems. But this limiting the handpass idea is just daft.
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8191 - 12/10/2022 14:24:37
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Replying To Cnocrua: "Just because scoring levels have gone up does not guarantee more excitement. Look at basketball where there are scores almost every 30 seconds but the first 3 quarters can be a bore.
I think what people miss, or would rather see is the excitement of a battle for possession, which is often missing when completing a 3 yard handpass to someone unmarked. The drama of what's going to happen next might have fallen out of the game a bit.
And to clarify I don't think anybody is disputing that today's players are better, fitter, more prepared and skilful than ever before." I think you've hit the nub of the issue - scoring levels have gone up because players are better, fitter more prepared and skillful in some areas. Other areas of skill have been neglected - there are far fewer contested duals now.
Looking at games on All Ireland gold it tended to be 3/4 pieces of individual skill by 3/4 different players would be rewarded by a score be it a high catch, long accurate kick pass or an accurate shot. Now it's more of a collective game where the main skill is not losing possession and we're eventually looking for an accurate pass to a player in space to provide the score.
While we're all generalising here I see the chief "problem" is that players are so much fitter now and can get up and down the pitch so much better. This means fewer gaps and more defenders back. That in turn makes it harder to score and has driven players to be so much better than before. The scores are better, but the game is less open. I think we want to see a more open game.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 370 - 12/10/2022 14:45:25
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Replying To brianb: "I think you've hit the nub of the issue - scoring levels have gone up because players are better, fitter more prepared and skillful in some areas. Other areas of skill have been neglected - there are far fewer contested duals now.
Looking at games on All Ireland gold it tended to be 3/4 pieces of individual skill by 3/4 different players would be rewarded by a score be it a high catch, long accurate kick pass or an accurate shot. Now it's more of a collective game where the main skill is not losing possession and we're eventually looking for an accurate pass to a player in space to provide the score.
While we're all generalising here I see the chief "problem" is that players are so much fitter now and can get up and down the pitch so much better. This means fewer gaps and more defenders back. That in turn makes it harder to score and has driven players to be so much better than before. The scores are better, but the game is less open. I think we want to see a more open game." All Ireland Gold? Seriously? You think there was more individual skills on show back then? A lot of those games are pretty poor to watch.
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8191 - 12/10/2022 15:53:32
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Limiting "handpasses" is the most boring argument I've heard. How many "handpasses" do we limit it to? How do we referee it? I think what really is attributing to peoples annoyance at the game these days is when a team play around with the ball on the oppositions 65 for 2 minutes while the opposing team put 15 men behind the ball without trying to press nothing got to do with the "handpass". We've no problem with teams "handpassing" their way up the Pitch its just the lack of urgency to take a risk when they meet the oppositions defensive set up. Teams these days aren't being drilled to "handpass" the ball, coaches are telling them not to give up easy possession as it is a fundemental part of todays game. Whoever has more of the ball and uses it effectively usually wins. It really hasn't much to do with "handpassing" as it does to do with how the game is being played in this decade. Now I would implement a few rule changes that I think could help improve the game as well as appease the old foggies and their obsession over the "handpass".
1) Two referees: One in either half will become clear why with the next point. Logistically could be a problem with lack of referees in some counties but for intercounty it could be used.
2) A shot clock: I'm not sure what limit you'd put on this possibly 60 seconds from when the attacking team initially enter the oppositions half. Now this would sort out the problem of deflating and disappointing games that we've seen over the years. Once the attacking team leave their half the referee in the half they've left is in charge of the shot clock. It would be paused for frees and once the free was taken started again from the point it was paused. All shots taken before the buzzer would count Might be difficult logistically at lower level club games but at intercounty level it could be easily implemented. This could be an easy fix without getting rid of the "handpass" and when the clock reaches the last 5 seconds the attacking team would have no option but to drill the ball long. Which is what we all really know the ban the "handpass" campaigners secretly want. But I must admit is entertaining to watch just look at Armagh vs Galway this year.
3) Timer: Now to implement the above correctly we would have to time the game the same as it is in the ladies and rugby. Pausing the clock at each major break in play and times up once it reaches 70 mins unless a scorable free is awarded at the death in such case once the ball leaves the free takers boot times up.
4) Attacking Rule: In a game team A vs B, team A are on the attack in such case three backs on team A and three forwards on team B as well as team A's goalie have to remain in team A's half until possession is turned over. This will leave more space and appease those who hate the defensive systems that some teams implement.
5) Mark Rule: Change all mark rules defensive attacking and kickouts to overhead catches.
Now myself personally I've no major problem with the game and how its played today apart from a few changes that could be made. And I agree with Flaker whos commented above in this thread who said that the game is continuously evolving and people will be arguing about something else in a few years time. But I feel these changes however how drastic they are could massively improve the game without changing the fundamentals of the game i.e. "the handpass". Theres probably 50% of the population who want to see major changes and although I myself do not apart from a few small changes, i think we all have to agree that 50% is a large amount of the viewers of our great game. So we have to accommodate them to and to do this major changes will be needed. I think the above would be a good start without changing the fundamentals i.e. hop, solo, 4 steps, kick catch and "handpass".
southleitrim_mafia (Leitrim) - Posts: 114 - 12/10/2022 17:00:02
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Replying To TheFlaker: "All Ireland Gold? Seriously? You think there was more individual skills on show back then? A lot of those games are pretty poor to watch." It's always hard to compare across eras. There was a different type of skill in those games - a more rounded skill set needed. Genuine contests for the ball on every possession. A good deal more end-to-end than the modern game.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 370 - 12/10/2022 17:15:17
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Replying To southleitrim_mafia: "Limiting "handpasses" is the most boring argument I've heard. How many "handpasses" do we limit it to? How do we referee it? I think what really is attributing to peoples annoyance at the game these days is when a team play around with the ball on the oppositions 65 for 2 minutes while the opposing team put 15 men behind the ball without trying to press nothing got to do with the "handpass". We've no problem with teams "handpassing" their way up the Pitch its just the lack of urgency to take a risk when they meet the oppositions defensive set up. Teams these days aren't being drilled to "handpass" the ball, coaches are telling them not to give up easy possession as it is a fundemental part of todays game. Whoever has more of the ball and uses it effectively usually wins. It really hasn't much to do with "handpassing" as it does to do with how the game is being played in this decade. Now I would implement a few rule changes that I think could help improve the game as well as appease the old foggies and their obsession over the "handpass".
1) Two referees: One in either half will become clear why with the next point. Logistically could be a problem with lack of referees in some counties but for intercounty it could be used.
2) A shot clock: I'm not sure what limit you'd put on this possibly 60 seconds from when the attacking team initially enter the oppositions half. Now this would sort out the problem of deflating and disappointing games that we've seen over the years. Once the attacking team leave their half the referee in the half they've left is in charge of the shot clock. It would be paused for frees and once the free was taken started again from the point it was paused. All shots taken before the buzzer would count Might be difficult logistically at lower level club games but at intercounty level it could be easily implemented. This could be an easy fix without getting rid of the "handpass" and when the clock reaches the last 5 seconds the attacking team would have no option but to drill the ball long. Which is what we all really know the ban the "handpass" campaigners secretly want. But I must admit is entertaining to watch just look at Armagh vs Galway this year.
3) Timer: Now to implement the above correctly we would have to time the game the same as it is in the ladies and rugby. Pausing the clock at each major break in play and times up once it reaches 70 mins unless a scorable free is awarded at the death in such case once the ball leaves the free takers boot times up.
4) Attacking Rule: In a game team A vs B, team A are on the attack in such case three backs on team A and three forwards on team B as well as team A's goalie have to remain in team A's half until possession is turned over. This will leave more space and appease those who hate the defensive systems that some teams implement.
5) Mark Rule: Change all mark rules defensive attacking and kickouts to overhead catches.
Now myself personally I've no major problem with the game and how its played today apart from a few changes that could be made. And I agree with Flaker whos commented above in this thread who said that the game is continuously evolving and people will be arguing about something else in a few years time. But I feel these changes however how drastic they are could massively improve the game without changing the fundamentals of the game i.e. "the handpass". Theres probably 50% of the population who want to see major changes and although I myself do not apart from a few small changes, i think we all have to agree that 50% is a large amount of the viewers of our great game. So we have to accommodate them to and to do this major changes will be needed. I think the above would be a good start without changing the fundamentals i.e. hop, solo, 4 steps, kick catch and "handpass"." I don't agree with your thesis that we have to accommodate those who want to see major change. As for your proposed rule changes no. 1, two refs. I wouldn't be for or against that. No. 2, shot clock with 60 seconds allowed for a shot, I would be opposed to that. Teams would drop back and play even more defensively. They would drop 13/14 players around the scoring zone. It's a crazy proposal. No. 3, timer. I think timekeeping needs to be taken out of the hands out of the referee's hands. This could be the way to do it. No. 4, limiting the numbers of defenders and forwards in halves is very artificial. No team sport I know of does it. How would it be implemented at club level? It is a non runner as far as I am concerned. No. 5, changing the mark rules. I would get rid of the attacking and defending rules completely. There is some merit in an overhead catch for a forward mark. The midfield mark is working really well. My own feeling is that the negativity towards football that prevails amongst the hierarchy of the GAA should be confronted. The constant tinkering with the rules has to stop. Leave the game alone. It provided great entertainment during the inter county season and it is now doing so at club level. We are blessed to have two great games in the GAA. Leave football alone and let it evolve itself.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6145 - 12/10/2022 18:20:47
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Replying To Greengrass: "I wouldn't dignify your tripe with any response other than this." You mean that you can't. You're not able to. Doesn't surprise me one iota!
foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 2107 - 12/10/2022 18:20:58
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Replying To brianb: "It's always hard to compare across eras. There was a different type of skill in those games - a more rounded skill set needed. Genuine contests for the ball on every possession. A good deal more end-to-end than the modern game." That's the point that should be made to the man who brought the golden days into the argument.
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8191 - 12/10/2022 20:45:08
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Limiting handpasses would encourage even more defensive play. Imagine how effective getting 14 men behind the ball would be when the attacking team is forced to kick the ball into them after every few handpasses.
I expect a change to limit how the attacking team can play would lead to no changes in how teams are setting up strategically now, but welcome in a big trend downwards in how many scores we see in each game.
TheHuckleBuck (Galway) - Posts: 24 - 13/10/2022 09:27:04
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Replying To TheFlaker: "I really don't know what games you are watching. At intercounty level there are now more balls being kicked long, unless you missed the semis and finals last year. The same applies at club level. It's actually unbelievable that you admit that the scoring averages are gone up but you say there is less excitement. We have faster, more skilled, higher scoring games but people still think there is a major issue. I give up." As with modern day hurling just become there's more scores don't mean more excitement.
Imo football, in the latter stages of the championship, has become more exciting than hurling. An unpopular opinion I'm sure but most hurling games now you can almost tell by half time who's going to win.
oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1485 - 13/10/2022 10:12:22
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