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Rules Query

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Is a free/penalty judged where the foul started or ended or is it the most advantageous to the person being fouled?

EG player running through and is fouled but keeps going and the opponent eventually pulls him down inside the penalty area. My view is that should be a penalty but wondering what the rule actually is?

Mayonman (Galway) - Posts: 1825 - 17/09/2022 18:25:17    2440976

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Replying To Mayonman:  "Is a free/penalty judged where the foul started or ended or is it the most advantageous to the person being fouled?

EG player running through and is fouled but keeps going and the opponent eventually pulls him down inside the penalty area. My view is that should be a penalty but wondering what the rule actually is?"
If the referee indicates the player was fouled and he is applying the "advantage rule", by raising his arm, and a second foul occurs while his arm is raised, he awards a free and this is taken from where the original foul occured.
An experienced referee, with a feel for the game, would wait to see what develops in the first instance before taking any immediate action. Some players are not easily stopped, M. Murphy, D. Comer, come to mind.

Gaa Fan (USA) - Posts: 749 - 17/09/2022 18:50:17    2440978

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I would think that it should be from where the foul was initiated. In the situation you describe, if it looked like the player with the ball might break the (illegal) tackle, then the ref could decide to play the advantage rule. However, if the defender continued pulling and dragging the whole time, eventually bringing the attacker down inside the square, then no advantage would have accrued so a free should be awarded from the spot where the fouling started.

Gaillimh_Abu (Galway) - Posts: 996 - 17/09/2022 19:30:17    2440982

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If a player is fouled while in advantage then the second foul is where the free or penalty will be. Also while in advantage if the player fouls then advantage is over and a free awarded the other way

SupermanSub (Galway) - Posts: 36 - 17/09/2022 21:34:53    2440992

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Replying To SupermanSub:  "If a player is fouled while in advantage then the second foul is where the free or penalty will be. Also while in advantage if the player fouls then advantage is over and a free awarded the other way"
I don't think your second point is correct.
Even if player is getting advantage and fouls the ball, they still get free as it's deemed no advantage has accrued.

Rossie2022 (Roscommon) - Posts: 26 - 17/09/2022 21:51:11    2440993

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Replying To Rossie2022:  "I don't think your second point is correct.
Even if player is getting advantage and fouls the ball, they still get free as it's deemed no advantage has accrued."
Football and Hurling

When the referee has adjudicated that a foul has been committed (either Technical or Aggressive) he may allow play to continue if he considers it to be to the advantage of the offended team.

 

He may allow this advantage to run for up to five seconds after the foul or for less time if is clear that no advantage has accrued.

 

Whether or not a free kick/puck is awarded the referee shall apply any other relevant Disciplinary Action.

 

Signal

Advantage is signalled by the referee raising an arm upright and maintaining in an upright position for the period of the advantage.

 

Recall

If no advantage accrues then the referee shall award a free for the foul from where it occurred. For the avoidance of doubt a free kick/puck shall be awarded even if the fouled player/team has a shot at goal which is saved or goes wide.

 

Foul Subsequent to Advantage Award

If, during the advantage period, a foul is committed by a player of the team which was originally fouled then the advantage is cancelled and a free kick/puck awarded for the "second" foul.

 

If, during the advantage period, another foul is committed against the team which received the original advantage, then a free kick/puck will be awarded for the "second" foul if it is considered more advantageous than the original.

SupermanSub (Galway) - Posts: 36 - 18/09/2022 08:24:33    2440994

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Replying To Rossie2022:  "I don't think your second point is correct.
Even if player is getting advantage and fouls the ball, they still get free as it's deemed no advantage has accrued."
Superman Sub is correct. If I get an advantage from the referee and take 6 steps without playing the ball then I loose the advantage and its a free the other way.

Medals (Galway) - Posts: 24 - 18/09/2022 08:36:00    2440995

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Replying To Rossie2022:  "I don't think your second point is correct.
Even if player is getting advantage and fouls the ball, they still get free as it's deemed no advantage has accrued."
He's actually correct, if a player is on an advantage and commits a foul then he loses the advantage and free goes against him.

reffingmad (Roscommon) - Posts: 371 - 18/09/2022 09:21:17    2440999

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Replying To Rossie2022:  "I don't think your second point is correct.
Even if player is getting advantage and fouls the ball, they still get free as it's deemed no advantage has accrued."
Sorry your wrong here... there are 2 scenarios.
1. The ref may give a free where a second or third foul may have occurred and not return to the original foul. So for instance if a player gets fouled on the 40 and is given advantage and is fouled again on the 30 the ref may award free on the 30 or another advantage. Plus if player continued and was fouled in box ref can award peno.
2. If the player who has earned the advantage commits a foul during the advantage (eg double hop or charges or overcarries) he loses advantage and it is free to opposition. Hence a lot of refs quick to blow original free if player going into traffic as there is potential for them to overcarry and can be frustration to award oppositions way

DeMan (Monaghan) - Posts: 115 - 18/09/2022 09:48:44    2441002

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Replying To Gaillimh_Abu:  "I would think that it should be from where the foul was initiated. In the situation you describe, if it looked like the player with the ball might break the (illegal) tackle, then the ref could decide to play the advantage rule. However, if the defender continued pulling and dragging the whole time, eventually bringing the attacker down inside the square, then no advantage would have accrued so a free should be awarded from the spot where the fouling started."
I'd argue that if the player gets into the large square whilst being a fouled an advantage has accrued and if they're still being fouled then it's a penalty.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13703 - 18/09/2022 10:27:09    2441007

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Replying To MesAmis:  "I'd argue that if the player gets into the large square whilst being a fouled an advantage has accrued and if they're still being fouled then it's a penalty."
It looks like you are right MesAmis. Here is what I found in the GAA Referee Handbook online:

Football and Hurling
When the referee has adjudicated that a foul has been committed (either Technical or Aggressive) he may allow play to continue if he considers it to be to the advantage of the offended team.

He may allow this advantage to run for up to five seconds after the foul or for less time if is clear that no advantage has accrued.

Whether or not a free kick/puck is awarded the referee shall apply any other relevant Disciplinary Action.

Signal
Advantage is signalled by the referee raising an arm upright and maintaining in an upright position for the period of the advantage.

Recall
If no advantage accrues then the referee shall award a free for the foul from where it occurred. For the avoidance of doubt a free kick/puck shall be awarded even if the fouled player/team has a shot at goal which is saved or goes wide.

Foul Subsequent to Advantage Award
If, during the advantage period, a foul is committed by a player of the team which was originally fouled then the advantage is cancelled and a free kick/puck awarded for the "second" foul.

If, during the advantage period, another foul is committed against the team which received the original advantage, then a free kick/puck will be awarded for the "second" foul if it is considered more advantageous than the original.

Gaillimh_Abu (Galway) - Posts: 996 - 18/09/2022 17:29:50    2441045

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Thanks SupermanSub. Based on that it should be the most advantageous position

It always annoys me when the ref brings it back to the start of the foul. If you are still pulling and dragging in the penalty area u should not get away without a penalty just because u started pulling and dragging outside the penalty area. Natural justice!

Mayonman (Galway) - Posts: 1825 - 19/09/2022 09:48:01    2441132

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Maybe the more enlightened folks can help me on the football rules, we got knocked out of the championship at the weekend, there was an incident in the game Im not sure about, we kicked a high ball into the box to one of our forwards, he was going to catch the ball but the keeper came from behind and cleaned him out and fisted away the ball at the same time, I thought it was a penalty, but play continued for a few seconds, then the ref stopped play as the player was down after a heavy knock, he was down for at least a minute, the ref was talking to his umpires and I thought we were going to get a penalty, but no, the player got up eventually and play restarted, was the keeper entitled to horse the player out of it to punch the ball away?

Learykid (Cork) - Posts: 1 - 20/09/2022 13:16:27    2441299

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Replying To Learykid:  "Maybe the more enlightened folks can help me on the football rules, we got knocked out of the championship at the weekend, there was an incident in the game Im not sure about, we kicked a high ball into the box to one of our forwards, he was going to catch the ball but the keeper came from behind and cleaned him out and fisted away the ball at the same time, I thought it was a penalty, but play continued for a few seconds, then the ref stopped play as the player was down after a heavy knock, he was down for at least a minute, the ref was talking to his umpires and I thought we were going to get a penalty, but no, the player got up eventually and play restarted, was the keeper entitled to horse the player out of it to punch the ball away?"
5.7 (a) To charge an opponent in the back or to the front. (b) To charge an opponent : (i) who is not in possession of the ball, or (ii) is in the act of kicking the ball, or (iii) If both players are not moving in the direction of the ball to play it.

I assume that the last part didn't qualify!
The same reason why the Aussie rules style catch while jumping on the players back would be a free in Gaelic. A lot of people think that as long as you are going to play the ball its ok - well its not. Its also deemed an aggressive foul so it would have been a penalty.
I am sure that even some of your own lads would have thought it was ok as he was playing the ball.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1799 - 20/09/2022 15:07:39    2441327

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Replying To reffingmad:  "He's actually correct, if a player is on an advantage and commits a foul then he loses the advantage and free goes against him."
So if a player is being fouled by another player who is holding his hurl for example and continues to hold the hurl during advantage and player in possession over carries as a result of that then its a free to the player holding the hurl because the ref has his arm up for advantage?
I know that isnt strictly what you meant but still...
I havent seen any examples of whereby a free is given out in your scenario - not saying youre not correct. Its an interesting topic

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 21/09/2022 11:44:19    2441394

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Replying To Learykid:  "Maybe the more enlightened folks can help me on the football rules, we got knocked out of the championship at the weekend, there was an incident in the game Im not sure about, we kicked a high ball into the box to one of our forwards, he was going to catch the ball but the keeper came from behind and cleaned him out and fisted away the ball at the same time, I thought it was a penalty, but play continued for a few seconds, then the ref stopped play as the player was down after a heavy knock, he was down for at least a minute, the ref was talking to his umpires and I thought we were going to get a penalty, but no, the player got up eventually and play restarted, was the keeper entitled to horse the player out of it to punch the ball away?"
Very hard to comment without seeing it. To me if he made contact with the man before the ball then it would be a penalty but if his momentum carried him through after punching the ball then probably not.
Often times in GAA when a goalkeeper tackles he is often refereed differently which is wrong.
If you compared the above in hurling terms i feel the same rule should apply. If a goalie or player is pulling or batting on a ball and the follow through makes contact with the forward then its never a foul

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 21/09/2022 11:49:57    2441396

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Replying To tiobraid:  "So if a player is being fouled by another player who is holding his hurl for example and continues to hold the hurl during advantage and player in possession over carries as a result of that then its a free to the player holding the hurl because the ref has his arm up for advantage?
I know that isnt strictly what you meant but still...
I havent seen any examples of whereby a free is given out in your scenario - not saying youre not correct. Its an interesting topic"
Not sure of the rules in hurling but the rule in football is as I said above.
In the scenario you mention above it would be very unlikely as no clear advantage appears, but say if a player is on an advantage and breaks clear and within that 5 seconds over carries or double hops then the free is against him

reffingmad (Roscommon) - Posts: 371 - 21/09/2022 13:04:51    2441404

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Replying To tiobraid:  "Very hard to comment without seeing it. To me if he made contact with the man before the ball then it would be a penalty but if his momentum carried him through after punching the ball then probably not.
Often times in GAA when a goalkeeper tackles he is often refereed differently which is wrong.
If you compared the above in hurling terms i feel the same rule should apply. If a goalie or player is pulling or batting on a ball and the follow through makes contact with the forward then its never a foul"
Yeah, impossible to say much about this particular incident without actually seeing it.

In general terms, no one player is ever allowed to "horse" another player out of it, unless it's by way of a hefty yet legal shoulder charge. But sounds like this could have been judged a normal collision between two players competing for the ball from different directions, even if one of them (the forward) may have been blindsided. But again, without seeing it, impossible to offer an opinion on whether or not that was the right call.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2220 - 21/09/2022 13:07:18    2441406

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Replying To tiobraid:  "So if a player is being fouled by another player who is holding his hurl for example and continues to hold the hurl during advantage and player in possession over carries as a result of that then its a free to the player holding the hurl because the ref has his arm up for advantage?
I know that isnt strictly what you meant but still...
I havent seen any examples of whereby a free is given out in your scenario - not saying youre not correct. Its an interesting topic"
Referees use common sense on the topic thats why you don't see many any reversals. Most refs will blow up "before" the player fouled commits a foul. Its amazing how they can blow it up exactly on 4.59. Its another example of niot putting into the rule book what would make sense. Sometimes I feel the GAA are too afraid to be seen to be copying what works in other sports and this one would have been borrowed from rugby bar the time element.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1799 - 21/09/2022 14:43:37    2441429

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Replying To reffingmad:  "Not sure of the rules in hurling but the rule in football is as I said above.
In the scenario you mention above it would be very unlikely as no clear advantage appears, but say if a player is on an advantage and breaks clear and within that 5 seconds over carries or double hops then the free is against him"
Ya fair enough.
In hurling I've seen numerous incidents where a player is given advantage when being pulled back and gets a goal out it. ..despite taking too many steps.
The commentary is always the same - "the ref played advantage"

One or two goals from Colin Fennelly were prime examples of this. To me in that scenario the right thing to do it give the free in as the forward fouled the ball during the advantage often through no fault of his own but still a very obvious foul in terms of too many steps.
Anyway I'm probably going off point a bit!

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 21/09/2022 15:33:19    2441438

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