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Replying To Rebel2020: "One of the biggest problems I see is the obsession with winning at underage level. The winning is all that matters mantra leads to dreadful behaviour. The ignorance around this within clubs is staggering. The aim of all clubs at underage level should be player retention and not winning games. The amount of young players who are left to rot on a sideline just so a coach can try to claim an underage title is shocking. Parents can also be very ignorant around this. These players could be late developers or future servants of the club in administrative or coaching roles, but they inevitably drift away. The juvenile stars often don't continue playing either but it's too late then knocking on the doors of the players who were ignored for so long." Good post.
On a slightly different tangent extra coaching for younger lads who are a bit behind the other lads skillwise is being discussed for this winter at our club. Some of these lads are lads that started later than others some have grown alot and are a little less well coordinated. Hopefully this will mean they will get to play more and feel more involved and enjoy a little success as they go up through the age groups. And therefore stay with the games longer.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11841 - 03/09/2022 07:22:07
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Replying To Rebel2020: "One of the biggest problems I see is the obsession with winning at underage level. The winning is all that matters mantra leads to dreadful behaviour. The ignorance around this within clubs is staggering. The aim of all clubs at underage level should be player retention and not winning games. The amount of young players who are left to rot on a sideline just so a coach can try to claim an underage title is shocking. Parents can also be very ignorant around this. These players could be late developers or future servants of the club in administrative or coaching roles, but they inevitably drift away. The juvenile stars often don't continue playing either but it's too late then knocking on the doors of the players who were ignored for so long." Best post by far, add in mouthy parents at underage level. Yes it's great to win but as you say, at what cost. Club football should be about community and enjoying the game, county level to me is where winning is more important.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2012 - 03/09/2022 12:01:31
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Replying To ExiledInWex: "Well I think what you are proposing is 8 instead of 2....heaven help us." I was talking about inter county matches not club games… referees at club level everywhere are brutal.. you would end up with 2 brutal officials instead of one
ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 1924 - 03/09/2022 13:35:30
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Replying To Rebel2020: "One of the biggest problems I see is the obsession with winning at underage level. The winning is all that matters mantra leads to dreadful behaviour. The ignorance around this within clubs is staggering. The aim of all clubs at underage level should be player retention and not winning games. The amount of young players who are left to rot on a sideline just so a coach can try to claim an underage title is shocking. Parents can also be very ignorant around this. These players could be late developers or future servants of the club in administrative or coaching roles, but they inevitably drift away. The juvenile stars often don't continue playing either but it's too late then knocking on the doors of the players who were ignored for so long." Of course you are correct. Your opinion is diametrical from the poster who stated "the whole purpose of sport is to see who is the best". An opinion you are saying is the attitude that is the order of the day. I have no doubt that is the case. All these reasons you give are why this statement is wrong plus how about treating everyone with some dignity. It might even rub off also on how referees are treated all over the country.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2660 - 03/09/2022 14:09:55
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Replying To Canuck: "Of course you are correct. Your opinion is diametrical from the poster who stated "the whole purpose of sport is to see who is the best". An opinion you are saying is the attitude that is the order of the day. I have no doubt that is the case. All these reasons you give are why this statement is wrong plus how about treating everyone with some dignity. It might even rub off also on how referees are treated all over the country." It was me who said that the whole purpose of sport is to see who is the best,, and it is, otherwise no one would care who wins or loses.
That doesn't mean I'm in favour of the win at all costs mentality,or that I don't believe in fair play. No one despises these things like feigning injury, sledging etc more than me.
You're wrong to suggest wanting to win, and cheating are one and the same.
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1705 - 03/09/2022 15:21:43
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Replying To arock: "How can what happened be anything to do with the rules of the game? The way you protect refs is by applying the full force of the law of the land on criminals who assault people. The way we protect refs is for clubs to filter out people who clearly have issues and shouldnt be near any sport." I would add to that that the referees' decisions be upheld unless there is clear-cut evidence that he erred.
I read today that another red card issued, to a county player in Waterford, was rescinded. Players, both men and women, know that their clubs and County Boards will go to any lengths to protect them no matter what or how often they get penalised.
Gaa Fan (USA) - Posts: 749 - 03/09/2022 16:26:17
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Replying To KillingFields: "its a legal term and it is still an alleged incident of assault..." Sod the legal terms. The law is an ass.
Alleged means something that is said to have taken place without conclusive proof.
What more conclusive proof do you need in this instance? A guy walked in from the sideline and flattened a referee. In view of many people.
Nothing "alleged" about this. End of.
bruffgael (Limerick) - Posts: 143 - 03/09/2022 16:55:14
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Refs need to take a stand themselves; striking for one weekend in one county isn't enough.
We also need a culture change; any regular readers of this forum will know how often the ref is blamed. A team could shoot forty wides, and still the ref will be picked on.
I don't like to compare us with rugby, but the respect their refs receive is an eye=opener. Even the most minor dissent is severely punished, and so players learn this discipline form an early age
Refs are human and make mistakes, like anyone else. A particular problem is the tackle, so often it's a judgement call as to whether it is a foul or not.
befair (Down) - Posts: 237 - 03/09/2022 17:14:18
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Replying To ForeverBlue2: "I was talking about inter county matches not club games… referees at club level everywhere are brutal.. you would end up with 2 brutal officials instead of one" And if ever a post epitomised the problem.........
ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1128 - 03/09/2022 17:31:12
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If we truly want to put an end to this kind of behaviour, there needs to be a massive cultural shift in the GAA. There has always been a complete lack of respect for officials and a general acceptance that it is ok to argue with and yell at the ref over every decision that you disagree with. Young players grow up listening to their team mentors and family members roaring abuse at the ref throughout games and this behaviour becomes completely normalized for them. It will take a huge coordinated effort and many years to change this culture but it can be done. In Rugby, players are taught from the very start to never question or talk back to the referee. Rugby players at the highest level accept the ref's decision without question and just get on with the game, even in cases where the ref clearly got it wrong. In rugby, there is zero tolerance for disrespectful behaviour towards referees at all levels of the game. In the GAA, it is sadly very much the opposite.
Gaillimh_Abu (Galway) - Posts: 996 - 03/09/2022 17:44:48
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Why hasn't this been sorted out by now? Roscommon GAA and St Aidan's GAA are supposed to be carrying out "a full investigation into the incident".
Well that should have taken all of half an hour. A 'mentor' (well known to everybody) walked on the pitch and assaulted the referee. And what have the gardaí done? Have they arrested him yet?
It's now 4 days since the incident, what's the reason for the holdup?
Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2460 - 03/09/2022 18:01:59
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Replying To Galway9801: "It was me who said that the whole purpose of sport is to see who is the best,, and it is, otherwise no one would care who wins or loses.
That doesn't mean I'm in favour of the win at all costs mentality,or that I don't believe in fair play. No one despises these things like feigning injury, sledging etc more than me.
You're wrong to suggest wanting to win, and cheating are one and the same." And you are way of the mark with "the whole purpose". Winning is part of the game but we dont want everyone to quit if they dont and see it as the whole purpose of playing.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2660 - 03/09/2022 18:13:57
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Replying To Cockney_Cat: "Why hasn't this been sorted out by now? Roscommon GAA and St Aidan's GAA are supposed to be carrying out "a full investigation into the incident".
Well that should have taken all of half an hour. A 'mentor' (well known to everybody) walked on the pitch and assaulted the referee. And what have the gardaí done? Have they arrested him yet?
It's now 4 days since the incident, what's the reason for the holdup?" The Gardai won't do a thing unless the referee makes a complaint (and obviously he should). As for Roscommon GAA they put out a very weak statement, it would have been very easy to organise a special meeting to discuss the matter and communicate that to the media. It wouldn't take long to investigate what happened. Banning the club from all competitions might be what's needed for all to sit up and take notice. The club can then take it up with the perpetrator.
Square_B (Leitrim) - Posts: 844 - 03/09/2022 19:13:00
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The amount of abuse shouted at referees during games is unreal. This is mainly due to vague rules misunderstood by players as well as the crowd. I'd hope more understanding would lead to less abuse.
Give the refs a microphone in inter-county games and broadcast their feed just like rugby referees do. You might still not agree why a decision was given a certain way but at least you'd understand the reasoning behind it. After a while of this everyone would understand the applied rules a bit better (e.g. Steps rule doesn't exist - a one handed tackle is ok but two hands are out). It might even prompt the powers to put the refereed rules into the rule book. That would trickle down through the game and hopefully prevent scenes like this one.
Aside from that define the punishments better in GAA and stick to them even on appeal. Finally in this case where an assault is committed refer the matter to the Garda.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 190 - 02/09/2022 18:39:59
ref given a mic at televised inter county games could help but it would take lot more for respect for officials to improve.
The key thing and i totally agree with you is define rules and punishments better and most importantly stick to these.
One of the biggest problems I see is the obsession with winning at underage level. The winning is all that matters mantra leads to dreadful behaviour. The ignorance around this within clubs is staggering. The aim of all clubs at underage level should be player retention and not winning games. The amount of young players who are left to rot on a sideline just so a coach can try to claim an underage title is shocking. Parents can also be very ignorant around this. These players could be late developers or future servants of the club in administrative or coaching roles, but they inevitably drift away. The juvenile stars often don't continue playing either but it's too late then knocking on the doors of the players who were ignored for so long.
Rebel2020 (Cork) - Posts: 63 - 02/09/2022 21:37:42
Obsession with winning at underage isnt a factor. There is a real obsession with winning in many other sports and you dont have near as much incidents of abuse etc towards officials. Take schools rugby. In all the provinces the focus in schools rugby is all about the schools cups. straight knock out cups in many cases and all leagues, friendlies are all about preparing for/qualifying for the cups and there isnt the abuse of officials.
I was talking about inter county matches not club games… referees at club level everywhere are brutal.. you would end up with 2 brutal officials instead of one
ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 1025 - 03/09/2022 13:35:30
what would you do to help officials then? Youre part of the problem then if thats your only contribution to this that all officials at club level are brutal.
If we truly want to put an end to this kind of behaviour, there needs to be a massive cultural shift in the GAA. There has always been a complete lack of respect for officials and a general acceptance that it is ok to argue with and yell at the ref over every decision that you disagree with. Young players grow up listening to their team mentors and family members roaring abuse at the ref throughout games and this behaviour becomes completely normalized for them. It will take a huge coordinated effort and many years to change this culture but it can be done. In Rugby, players are taught from the very start to never question or talk back to the referee. Rugby players at the highest level accept the ref's decision without question and just get on with the game, even in cases where the ref clearly got it wrong. In rugby, there is zero tolerance for disrespectful behaviour towards referees at all levels of the game. In the GAA, it is sadly very much the opposite.
Gaillimh_Abu (Galway) - Posts: 948 - 03/09/2022 17:44:48
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 03/09/2022 19:17:36
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Replying To Canuck: "And you are way of the mark with "the whole purpose". Winning is part of the game but we dont want everyone to quit if they dont and see it as the whole purpose of playing." That's twice you've put words in my mouth.
Who said anything about quitting because you don't win? I sure didn't, if I wanted everyone who didn't win to quit there'd be no sport left bar one team.
But if a team doesn't try to win,fairly, or at least try to improve to get closer to victory, then yes, I really think the whole essence of sport gets lost tbh.
Sport is of course a good way to socialise and make friends and have fun, but the same could be said for cooking classes.
I've a funny feeling if the waterford lads turned up to an all Ireland final and decided to start messin around, play acting amongst eachother while the opposition reigned down goals and points on them you wouldn't be long changing your mind.
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1705 - 03/09/2022 19:26:38
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Replying To Gaillimh_Abu: "If we truly want to put an end to this kind of behaviour, there needs to be a massive cultural shift in the GAA. There has always been a complete lack of respect for officials and a general acceptance that it is ok to argue with and yell at the ref over every decision that you disagree with. Young players grow up listening to their team mentors and family members roaring abuse at the ref throughout games and this behaviour becomes completely normalized for them. It will take a huge coordinated effort and many years to change this culture but it can be done. In Rugby, players are taught from the very start to never question or talk back to the referee. Rugby players at the highest level accept the ref's decision without question and just get on with the game, even in cases where the ref clearly got it wrong. In rugby, there is zero tolerance for disrespectful behaviour towards referees at all levels of the game. In the GAA, it is sadly very much the opposite." That's going too far the other direction.
I've played in games where the ref clearly, and quite brazenly favoured one team over another, (we were the benefactors once), and I'd never encourage kids to tolerate that.
If a team feels that a referee has abused his power to manipulate a result, or if a refs incompetence has manipulated a result, then there should be a mechanism there by which they can address the issue.
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1705 - 03/09/2022 20:02:39
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Replying To Galway9801: "That's going too far the other direction.
I've played in games where the ref clearly, and quite brazenly favoured one team over another, (we were the benefactors once), and I'd never encourage kids to tolerate that.
If a team feels that a referee has abused his power to manipulate a result, or if a refs incompetence has manipulated a result, then there should be a mechanism there by which they can address the issue." Even if a team firmly believes that the ref is favouring the opposition, shouting at and arguing with the ref will accomplish absolutely nothing. It might feel good to let off a bit of steam in the heat of the moment but no ref is going to be influenced by such behaviour. What a team "feels" and what actually happened though are not always the same thing. Players and supporters are often very quick to blame the ref when things don't turn out the way they had hoped. I rewatched the Galway v Tipp 1989 hurling semi-final last year and I was shocked at how different it was from what I remembered. Galway fans (including myself) were outraged at John Denton after that game. We were all convinced that he had screwed Galway over and gave everything to Tipp and I'm sure many still firmly believe that to this day. When I watched it again, I had to admit that the refereeing was nowhere near as bad as I had thought. There were a few calls on both sides that could have gone the other way and he lost control of the game at times but there was no blatant favouring of Tipp. Galway lost to the better team on the day but we just did not want to accept that cold, hard fact at the time - it was much easier to jump on the bandwagon and blame the ref.
Gaillimh_Abu (Galway) - Posts: 996 - 04/09/2022 07:56:42
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Replying To Gaillimh_Abu: "Even if a team firmly believes that the ref is favouring the opposition, shouting at and arguing with the ref will accomplish absolutely nothing. It might feel good to let off a bit of steam in the heat of the moment but no ref is going to be influenced by such behaviour. What a team "feels" and what actually happened though are not always the same thing. Players and supporters are often very quick to blame the ref when things don't turn out the way they had hoped. I rewatched the Galway v Tipp 1989 hurling semi-final last year and I was shocked at how different it was from what I remembered. Galway fans (including myself) were outraged at John Denton after that game. We were all convinced that he had screwed Galway over and gave everything to Tipp and I'm sure many still firmly believe that to this day. When I watched it again, I had to admit that the refereeing was nowhere near as bad as I had thought. There were a few calls on both sides that could have gone the other way and he lost control of the game at times but there was no blatant favouring of Tipp. Galway lost to the better team on the day but we just did not want to accept that cold, hard fact at the time - it was much easier to jump on the bandwagon and blame the ref." That's a very good post. All of us have gone to matches and thought we got done by a ref only to look at highlights and realise that the ref got the call right or it was a marginal call.
Nothing excuses assaulting a ref. Imagine if a goalkeeper made a mistake in a match and someone hit him for it.
We all need to change our behaviour starting with elimination of verbal abuse of people who are trying their best.
carlovia (None) - Posts: 1517 - 04/09/2022 10:58:57
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Replying To Gaillimh_Abu: "Even if a team firmly believes that the ref is favouring the opposition, shouting at and arguing with the ref will accomplish absolutely nothing. It might feel good to let off a bit of steam in the heat of the moment but no ref is going to be influenced by such behaviour. What a team "feels" and what actually happened though are not always the same thing. Players and supporters are often very quick to blame the ref when things don't turn out the way they had hoped. I rewatched the Galway v Tipp 1989 hurling semi-final last year and I was shocked at how different it was from what I remembered. Galway fans (including myself) were outraged at John Denton after that game. We were all convinced that he had screwed Galway over and gave everything to Tipp and I'm sure many still firmly believe that to this day. When I watched it again, I had to admit that the refereeing was nowhere near as bad as I had thought. There were a few calls on both sides that could have gone the other way and he lost control of the game at times but there was no blatant favouring of Tipp. Galway lost to the better team on the day but we just did not want to accept that cold, hard fact at the time - it was much easier to jump on the bandwagon and blame the ref." That's related to general poor refereeing, which happens all over the country. That's part and parcel of the game and I agree, players, managers and supporters need to accept it.
The other poster's point was in relation to blatantly biased officiating, which does also happen, particularly at club level. Refs are human and not all will be people of the highest integrity, just like any random group of people. Some will have a grudge against a certain club for any number of reasons.
Deliberately biased refereeing should definitely be called out. Not in an abusive way, but it should be challenged.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2039 - 04/09/2022 12:22:52
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Replying To carlovia: "That's a very good post. All of us have gone to matches and thought we got done by a ref only to look at highlights and realise that the ref got the call right or it was a marginal call.
Nothing excuses assaulting a ref. Imagine if a goalkeeper made a mistake in a match and someone hit him for it.
We all need to change our behaviour starting with elimination of verbal abuse of people who are trying their best." Said this for years. A player misplaces a pass or misses an easy free or a keeper makes a mess of a high ball that results in a goal and more often or not will get a " keep the head up" or a "next time" or some other form of encouragement.
A referee makes a call, that a lot of the time is correct gets berated from players, managers, supporters/parents from the team the free is against.
For far too long now the GAA is seen as a safe haven for thuggery and actions that would not be tolerated on the street. Why? A legal jargon official guide that has too many loopholes to win appeals. A system that allows unacceptance from the perpetrator and also allows appeal after appeal at different levels until a T is found not to be crossed or an I dotted. One appeal only should be allowed and after that accept your punishment.
The best way to curb this behaviour is to come down hard on the club. An individual can lay their hand on an official and get a 48 or 96 week ban yet the following week will be at a match watching from over the fence, no doubt berating another referee. Very few clubs will keep these people from entering the club unless heavy fines are levied on the club. Only when the club is punished will they start dealing with the troublemakers.
kingpuck71 (Derry) - Posts: 690 - 04/09/2022 13:43:05
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