|
#Commodore.
The threads getting messed up and getting confusing, so Ill start again.
I dont want exact equality of wealth. I want equality of opportunity. Im not as wealthy as I could be, but that was my choice. Im happy with the choices I made.
I realise the importance of education, and Ive made sure my children have gone to schools which reflect the importance I put on education. I've positively encouraged them to remain in school until they do their leaving certs. Ive told them that I dont mind if they go on to 3rd level education, get a job which provides job specific training and a career path, or do an apprenticeship. What Ive told them Im not doing is paying for their food while they lie on my sofa at the age of 25.
Some children come from disadvantaged backgrounds and dont get this encouragement at home. And certainly dont get it from their peer group.
As a country it seems we just conveniently forget these lads.
And thats not equality of opportunity as far as I see it.
As regards what the state can do, more money needs to be spent on parent education in disadvantaged areas, and contacts with youth and social workers pointing out the different life choices that can be made. Im 100% certain that most of the people in those areas are entirely unaware of the grants you speak of.
Maybe this obscuring of information is, as you say, motivated by a perceived need to be careful with taxpayers money. But thats a shortsighted and false economy. If you reduced the "cant work, wont work" section of society by 50% say for talks sake, you will save far more on DSP payments than the cost of 3rd level grants and increased numbers of social and youth workers. And thats before taking into account the increase in tax revenue from the 50% that will then be working. You will also save a fortune in other types of social services to do with rehabilitation, from crime and drug and alcohol misuse, law and order expenses, court expenses, and prison expenses.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19182 - 11/04/2026 18:05:08
2665783
Link
1
|
|
Two Irish men showing the world how to play golf. Go on Shane and Rory.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2622 - 11/04/2026 20:43:21
2665811
Link
1
|
|
Some children come from disadvantaged backgrounds and dont get this encouragement at home. And certainly dont get it from their peer group.As a country it seems we just conveniently forget these lads, and that's not equality of opportunity as far as I see it.
I get your point about lack of encouragement at home and from peers, but at Secondary schools, they have dedicated teachers that talk to each class and also talk to students individually about what they want to do after school and what paths are available. This isn't only for 3rd level education, its career guidance, where depending on what they student is interested in, they provide the guidance on how to pursure that, even if its an apprenticeship or working in bar.
As regards what the state can do, more money needs to be spent on parent education in disadvantaged areas, and contacts with youth and social workers pointing out the different life choices that can be made. Im 100% certain that most of the people in those areas are entirely unaware of the grants you speak of.
I won't disagree, I have no doubt based on what you are saying, that career guidance teachers in some areas are either not covering all students or the ball is being dropped by those schools. That's a major failure, because making young students aware of the different paths and options available to them should be a priority. You raise a good point about making parent aware, that is something that needs to be considered, because my own parents had no idea and never encouraged 3rd level, because they feared they couldn't afford it for me until I presented the options to them.
You will also save a fortune in other types of social services to do with rehabilitation, from crime and drug and alcohol misuse, law and order expenses, court expenses, and prison expenses.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19177 - 11/04/2026 18:05:08
I don't fully agree, I know a people who had the same opportunities as me, who made a choices to either leave school before or after Leaving Cert and not pursue any further education despite the options and funding available. That was personal choice, not lack of equality.
Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1727 - 11/04/2026 22:21:50
2665827
Link
1
|
|
Replying To Commodore: "Some children come from disadvantaged backgrounds and dont get this encouragement at home. And certainly dont get it from their peer group.As a country it seems we just conveniently forget these lads, and that's not equality of opportunity as far as I see it.
I get your point about lack of encouragement at home and from peers, but at Secondary schools, they have dedicated teachers that talk to each class and also talk to students individually about what they want to do after school and what paths are available. This isn't only for 3rd level education, its career guidance, where depending on what they student is interested in, they provide the guidance on how to pursure that, even if its an apprenticeship or working in bar.
As regards what the state can do, more money needs to be spent on parent education in disadvantaged areas, and contacts with youth and social workers pointing out the different life choices that can be made. Im 100% certain that most of the people in those areas are entirely unaware of the grants you speak of.
I won't disagree, I have no doubt based on what you are saying, that career guidance teachers in some areas are either not covering all students or the ball is being dropped by those schools. That's a major failure, because making young students aware of the different paths and options available to them should be a priority. You raise a good point about making parent aware, that is something that needs to be considered, because my own parents had no idea and never encouraged 3rd level, because they feared they couldn't afford it for me until I presented the options to them.
You will also save a fortune in other types of social services to do with rehabilitation, from crime and drug and alcohol misuse, law and order expenses, court expenses, and prison expenses.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19177 - 11/04/2026 18:05:08
I don't fully agree, I know a people who had the same opportunities as me, who made a choices to either leave school before or after Leaving Cert and not pursue any further education despite the options and funding available. That was personal choice, not lack of equality." "I get your point about lack of encouragement at home and from peers, but at Secondary schools, they have dedicated teachers that talk to each class and also talk to students individually about what they want to do after school and what paths are available. This isn't only for 3rd level education, its career guidance, where depending on what they student is interested in, they provide the guidance on how to pursure that, even if its an apprenticeship or working in bar."
Do children in disadvantaged areas take the odd career guidance class that they get in? And when do they get this advice? Probably after half of them have dropped out. The real evidence, as in 3rd level take up as a percentage of age group population, in area like Tallaght and Ballymun which would be way lower than it is in Blackrock, suggests you are wrong on this point.
All my children did swimming classes for 3 years in National school, at quite significant cost. Not one of them was any better at swimming for this. How much genuine career guidance can 1 person give 30 different people in a few hours spread out over a term? Very little it would appear. Just out of interest when you say you come from a disadvantaged background, did you come from a disadvantaged area and go to school with others from disadvantaged backgrounds? If not that would explain why you still dont seem to be getting the point Im trying to make.
"I don't fully agree, I know a people who had the same opportunities as me, who made a choices to either leave school before or after Leaving Cert and not pursue any further education despite the options and funding available. That was personal choice, not lack of equality"
Im not saying it wasnt personal choice. But in your opinion, as you knew these lads and I don't, do you think it was a well informed choice that they made, and was it freely made? Or did they not really know what their choices might mean when they came to be adults?
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19182 - 12/04/2026 11:08:10
2665852
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Viking66: ""I get your point about lack of encouragement at home and from peers, but at Secondary schools, they have dedicated teachers that talk to each class and also talk to students individually about what they want to do after school and what paths are available. This isn't only for 3rd level education, its career guidance, where depending on what they student is interested in, they provide the guidance on how to pursure that, even if its an apprenticeship or working in bar."
Do children in disadvantaged areas take the odd career guidance class that they get in? And when do they get this advice? Probably after half of them have dropped out. The real evidence, as in 3rd level take up as a percentage of age group population, in area like Tallaght and Ballymun which would be way lower than it is in Blackrock, suggests you are wrong on this point.
All my children did swimming classes for 3 years in National school, at quite significant cost. Not one of them was any better at swimming for this. How much genuine career guidance can 1 person give 30 different people in a few hours spread out over a term? Very little it would appear. Just out of interest when you say you come from a disadvantaged background, did you come from a disadvantaged area and go to school with others from disadvantaged backgrounds? If not that would explain why you still dont seem to be getting the point Im trying to make.
"I don't fully agree, I know a people who had the same opportunities as me, who made a choices to either leave school before or after Leaving Cert and not pursue any further education despite the options and funding available. That was personal choice, not lack of equality"
Im not saying it wasnt personal choice. But in your opinion, as you knew these lads and I don't, do you think it was a well informed choice that they made, and was it freely made? Or did they not really know what their choices might mean when they came to be adults?" comparing swimming to career guidance is completely wrong. totally different things and swimming classes with schools is often about simply basics and not to make the kids the next michael phelps but teach them the basics and knowledge to be safe in the water. if you want them to be swimmers you get them to join a swim club where they swim competitively and train for that
A good careers guidance teacher can direct you to the information/courses you wish to pursue.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3961 - 12/04/2026 12:50:57
2665871
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Saynothing: "Two Irish men showing the world how to play golf. Go on Shane and Rory." The Hole in One by Shane was classic! Rory letting the 6 shot lead disappear has me a bit worried.
SouthGalway (Galway) - Posts: 257 - 12/04/2026 13:32:49
2665876
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Viking66: ""I get your point about lack of encouragement at home and from peers, but at Secondary schools, they have dedicated teachers that talk to each class and also talk to students individually about what they want to do after school and what paths are available. This isn't only for 3rd level education, its career guidance, where depending on what they student is interested in, they provide the guidance on how to pursure that, even if its an apprenticeship or working in bar."
Do children in disadvantaged areas take the odd career guidance class that they get in? And when do they get this advice? Probably after half of them have dropped out. The real evidence, as in 3rd level take up as a percentage of age group population, in area like Tallaght and Ballymun which would be way lower than it is in Blackrock, suggests you are wrong on this point.
All my children did swimming classes for 3 years in National school, at quite significant cost. Not one of them was any better at swimming for this. How much genuine career guidance can 1 person give 30 different people in a few hours spread out over a term? Very little it would appear. Just out of interest when you say you come from a disadvantaged background, did you come from a disadvantaged area and go to school with others from disadvantaged backgrounds? If not that would explain why you still dont seem to be getting the point Im trying to make.
"I don't fully agree, I know a people who had the same opportunities as me, who made a choices to either leave school before or after Leaving Cert and not pursue any further education despite the options and funding available. That was personal choice, not lack of equality"
Im not saying it wasnt personal choice. But in your opinion, as you knew these lads and I don't, do you think it was a well informed choice that they made, and was it freely made? Or did they not really know what their choices might mean when they came to be adults?" I didn't want to use specific place names in my argument, but seeing as you have chosen to name Tallaght and Ballymun, let's run with those.
Ballymun is connected to Dublin city centre via frequent bus services, and is a 45 minute walk (11 minute cycle) to DCU.
Tallaght is connected to the city centre by bus and Luas and has it's own University (or at least part of a university).
The 'system' you claim is under-serving the people of these areas is surely the same system that built the universities and infrastructure mentioned above??
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5315 - 12/04/2026 13:57:24
2665878
Link
0
|
|
People given the privilege of singing Amhrán na bhFiann should at least know how to pronoounce the words!
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 4170 - 12/04/2026 14:15:30
2665883
Link
0
|