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Replying To Rolo2010:  "It was doomed because by the 90s because the Brits had so many spies embedded within the IRA."
True, the BBC seem to have a documentary every second week these days about moles and MI5 operatives in the IRA.

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3908 - 17/04/2023 11:39:43    2471342

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "They can pass all the motions they want. All theatrics.

Final call is Whitehall's and can only be called when SOS has evidence that a poll might lead to a vote in favour of a united Ireland. There is none, and there won't be, and they'll still be talking about it on the 50th anniversary of the GFA just as the parties in south got generations out of pretending there was going to be a united Ireland.

The only valid poll would be one held throughout Ireland on the same day, with the same question and decided on a 32 county basis. That is what republicans used to call for,

And that by the way is no justification for anyone continuing with another doomed armed campaign to waste more lives."
As I said and something that you have chosen to ignore, NI was created as an entity that would guarantee a Protestant majority forever. Today that supremacy is gone and the Protestant religion no longer is a majority of the people of NI. Demographics will ensure that will continue to fall. Your arguments that there will never be any vote because of a tradition Unionist majority is factually wrong. While there will always be a hard core block of support on either side of the divide - the future will be determined by those who will have no loyalty to any flag.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1904 - 18/04/2023 13:10:33    2471564

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Replying To zinny:  "As I said and something that you have chosen to ignore, NI was created as an entity that would guarantee a Protestant majority forever. Today that supremacy is gone and the Protestant religion no longer is a majority of the people of NI. Demographics will ensure that will continue to fall. Your arguments that there will never be any vote because of a tradition Unionist majority is factually wrong. While there will always be a hard core block of support on either side of the divide - the future will be determined by those who will have no loyalty to any flag."
The state was created to ensure a majority in favour of the union. Brits couldn't care less whether their local administrators are Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Hindu, Muslin, white, pink, black....

That majority is secure and the demographic change has brought NO change to the political division betwenn people who support the union and does who do not.

If you have ever met a middle class SDLP voter you will know that there is little enthusiasm even there for a united Ireland.

Anyway, we had an all Ireland poll in 1918. They sent the Tans ....

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3226 - 18/04/2023 13:19:34    2471566

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "The state was created to ensure a majority in favour of the union. Brits couldn't care less whether their local administrators are Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Hindu, Muslin, white, pink, black....

That majority is secure and the demographic change has brought NO change to the political division betwenn people who support the union and does who do not.

If you have ever met a middle class SDLP voter you will know that there is little enthusiasm even there for a united Ireland.

Anyway, we had an all Ireland poll in 1918. They sent the Tans ...."
I am inclined to agree with you Barney, this artificial state was created at a point of a gun which is why it will never ever function as a normal society. A united Ireland is inevitable at some point but we could see a period where there will be joint authority between London and Dublin.

tireoghainabu (Tyrone) - Posts: 351 - 18/04/2023 16:19:43    2471615

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Maguire and De Gea should be made walk back to Manchester, Keane was right all along. Laughing stock, no matter if your county's GAA team are ranked 32nd, they don't make mistakes like that. Great to see.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2168 - 20/04/2023 21:56:55    2472055

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Today is a slow day for news ....... because Enoch Burke's vigil is in the Indo again

KnockaineyAbú (Limerick) - Posts: 96 - 21/04/2023 13:53:04    2472192

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Replying To Saynothing:  "Maguire and De Gea should be made walk back to Manchester, Keane was right all along. Laughing stock, no matter if your county's GAA team are ranked 32nd, they don't make mistakes like that. Great to see."
How would they walk back from Seville? Walk on water is it? Could be asking too much of Maguire there!

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3908 - 21/04/2023 18:36:10    2472272

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Free State with Brolly and Fanning.

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GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7704 - 26/04/2023 11:06:14    2473922

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Replying To tireoghainabu:  "I am inclined to agree with you Barney, this artificial state was created at a point of a gun which is why it will never ever function as a normal society. A united Ireland is inevitable at some point but we could see a period where there will be joint authority between London and Dublin."
The NI state was set up on a sectarian head count, to ensure a permanent Unionist majority. Now 100 years later, that majority has been eroded. Unionism is a minority in the Assembly, compared to the other party groupings. The DUP are still stuck in the past, and won't accept they lost the 2022 Assembly Election to Sinn Fein. The ordinary people of NI, just want a Government that functions, and provides the public services to the entire community.
There may well be a period of joint authority before a United Ireland is established. That Unitary State is some time away I think.

thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1879 - 26/04/2023 18:58:09    2474102

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Replying To thelongridge:  "The NI state was set up on a sectarian head count, to ensure a permanent Unionist majority. Now 100 years later, that majority has been eroded. Unionism is a minority in the Assembly, compared to the other party groupings. The DUP are still stuck in the past, and won't accept they lost the 2022 Assembly Election to Sinn Fein. The ordinary people of NI, just want a Government that functions, and provides the public services to the entire community.
There may well be a period of joint authority before a United Ireland is established. That Unitary State is some time away I think."
Unlikely to be a Unitary State, more a Federal or Confederation of 2 Home Rule areas.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2005 - 27/04/2023 10:57:23    2474182

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "The state was created to ensure a majority in favour of the union. Brits couldn't care less whether their local administrators are Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Hindu, Muslin, white, pink, black....

That majority is secure and the demographic change has brought NO change to the political division betwenn people who support the union and does who do not.

If you have ever met a middle class SDLP voter you will know that there is little enthusiasm even there for a united Ireland.

Anyway, we had an all Ireland poll in 1918. They sent the Tans ...."
It popped up again and I realised I didn't reply on this. You are correct in that the Imperialists did not care who governed their possessions as long as they were part of the Empire. The original Home Rule Bills proved that point and had (certainly the original version introduced in 1912) gone through the future would have been very different. We can all speculate on what could have been but the one thing we do know is what did happen. The 1912 bill caused the Ulster Crises where it became clear that the Protestant majority would fight the Empire to maintain their position of power. They did not care that the whole island of Ireland would remain part of the Empire under Home Rule, the empire was always of secondary importance to them. To save their own position they were also prepared to abandon their southern unionists. In a somewhat warped logic, for demonstration of their loyalty to the Union/Empire they demanded equal treatment, which became another cornerstone of their beliefs - their loyalty to the Union would be rewarded by equal treatment within the Union.
That leads us to the current day where for the first time every there will be no Protestant Prime Minister and under the terms of the BREXIT agreement NI will be treated different to the rest of the UK. The historical reason for the very existence of NI has disappeared and where does that leave the Protestant people? Some are trying to rewrite history and now claim that the reason for them being on the earth is because of their loyalty to the Union, others, the ones you would describe as Unionists with a small u, are constantly assessing the benefits that NI brings to them. The question is does the benefits of being part of the Union now outweigh reunification? Which is the same question many Catholics or small c, community are asking. If they are allowed to have the best of both worlds, why change? That change will come because more than ever now they are dealing with an English government that increasingly is only focused on their own constituents. Nobody is fooled by BJ and his cohorts, they loyalty of these people to NI does not exist anymore and the drum of pay for what you eat will begin to get louder. All roads in my view lead eventually to reunification.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1904 - 27/04/2023 16:09:07    2474276

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I'm not a big soccer fan but respect to Liverpool fans.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2168 - 06/05/2023 17:30:25    2476120

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Replying To Saynothing:  "I'm not a big soccer fan but respect to Liverpool fans."
I think Celtic fans show the way.

tireoghainabu (Tyrone) - Posts: 351 - 06/05/2023 21:41:41    2476196

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Replying To tireoghainabu:  "I think Celtic fans show the way."
Not up to speed with soccer but yes, Celtic fans were brilliant.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2168 - 06/05/2023 22:14:25    2476217

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People talk of reunification but has Ireland ever existed as an independent 32 county country? I don't think so.

11jm11 (Kildare) - Posts: 367 - 06/05/2023 22:44:15    2476228

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Replying To 11jm11:  "People talk of reunification but has Ireland ever existed as an independent 32 county country? I don't think so."
I don't get it when unionists/southerners make that point. Does that mean you don't agree with the existence of your country now then? After all Donegal had nothing to do with Munster historically and Galway had no connection to Waterford.
Anyway, there were Northern/midlands connections long ago with cousin kingdoms sharing the High kingship.

PattyONeill (Derry) - Posts: 251 - 07/05/2023 11:26:31    2476301

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Replying To PattyONeill:  "I don't get it when unionists/southerners make that point. Does that mean you don't agree with the existence of your country now then? After all Donegal had nothing to do with Munster historically and Galway had no connection to Waterford.
Anyway, there were Northern/midlands connections long ago with cousin kingdoms sharing the High kingship."
Pre-Conquest Ireland was an island unified by a common language and culture and religion. there was no centralised state just as there was no centralised state anywhere at that period.

You'd think we were neandertals until the Normans arrived.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3226 - 07/05/2023 12:05:32    2476321

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Replying To Saynothing:  "I'm not a big soccer fan but respect to Liverpool fans."
T'would make a lad wonder what Sir Kenny Dalglish or Jordan Henderson MBE made of it

Maroonatic (Galway) - Posts: 1064 - 07/05/2023 17:10:04    2476457

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Pre-Conquest Ireland was an island unified by a common language and culture and religion. there was no centralised state just as there was no centralised state anywhere at that period.

You'd think we were neandertals until the Normans arrived."
One of the more unusual aspects of Irish history is that there was such a sense of cultural unity, combined with complete political fragmentation, it's quite fascinating really.

Báireoir (Dublin) - Posts: 80 - 07/05/2023 17:27:33    2476460

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Replying To zinny:  "It popped up again and I realised I didn't reply on this. You are correct in that the Imperialists did not care who governed their possessions as long as they were part of the Empire. The original Home Rule Bills proved that point and had (certainly the original version introduced in 1912) gone through the future would have been very different. We can all speculate on what could have been but the one thing we do know is what did happen. The 1912 bill caused the Ulster Crises where it became clear that the Protestant majority would fight the Empire to maintain their position of power. They did not care that the whole island of Ireland would remain part of the Empire under Home Rule, the empire was always of secondary importance to them. To save their own position they were also prepared to abandon their southern unionists. In a somewhat warped logic, for demonstration of their loyalty to the Union/Empire they demanded equal treatment, which became another cornerstone of their beliefs - their loyalty to the Union would be rewarded by equal treatment within the Union.
That leads us to the current day where for the first time every there will be no Protestant Prime Minister and under the terms of the BREXIT agreement NI will be treated different to the rest of the UK. The historical reason for the very existence of NI has disappeared and where does that leave the Protestant people? Some are trying to rewrite history and now claim that the reason for them being on the earth is because of their loyalty to the Union, others, the ones you would describe as Unionists with a small u, are constantly assessing the benefits that NI brings to them. The question is does the benefits of being part of the Union now outweigh reunification? Which is the same question many Catholics or small c, community are asking. If they are allowed to have the best of both worlds, why change? That change will come because more than ever now they are dealing with an English government that increasingly is only focused on their own constituents. Nobody is fooled by BJ and his cohorts, they loyalty of these people to NI does not exist anymore and the drum of pay for what you eat will begin to get louder. All roads in my view lead eventually to reunification."
I think that is a great post with a lot of food for thought. I agree by the way, that unification of the island is now a practical inevitability - but it isnt a certainty either. Also the shape it might take might not paint the picture many nationalists wish for. Time will tell. I for one believe the longer we wait, the more "Irish" a new state would be. It also, paradoxically, will depend on just how much the British government want rid - they could speed up or slow down the process hugely, everything right now points to the former.

And you sum up our protestant unionist neighbours very well. They are a remnant of the age of empires. A colonial afterthought. A failed experiment. I actually feel sorry for them now, they have survived on this island for 400 years, eaked out a part of it for themselves, fought the natives from day one, only to be thrown from a height now in this new millenium by those they wish so greatly would just "want" them. Ultimately they are now politically and culturally in an advanced state of decay - some of it by their own hand. They no longer have friends of standing in British politics, no friends among the elite or the royalty, no friends among the judiciary, and no friends in America or Europe. They are locked in a horrible, political battle that they cant win, and are ultimately locked in a political death spiral that will continue to play out for another quarter century. It is very, very bleak. They need leadership and they need vision - maybe that could come from Irish people willing to extend the hand of friendship and offering them something better. Sadly, I think this game will play out for a while yet until the island formally re-unifies.

The PUL tradition have two options - the White South African option to integrate and accept a new society with optimism for their own future, or the Rhodesian option - gradual extinction through lack of vision, lack of foresight, and lack of diversity.

Young_gael (Meath) - Posts: 596 - 07/05/2023 17:44:31    2476463

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