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Replying To KillingFields:  "The situations can be compared. At least the rugby players who qualify on residency live and work in Ireland unlike many of those soccer players. Even with irish grandparents they'll have lived their entire lives elsewhere never lived or worked in ireland."
I take your point on the living and working in Ireland bit (though an Irish person earning a living abroad is no less Irish than one doing so here).
However my post was intended to question another posters opinion that these rugby players are "as Irish" as soccer players who played for Ireland despite not being born here.
It's actually quite insulting to diaspora all over the world who were brought up as Irish, played GAA, went to mass on a Sunday, learnt the tin whistle, did Irish dancing, spent their summer holidays here etc to say that CJ bloody Stander is as Irish as them...

streaker (Galway) - Posts: 504 - 21/03/2023 16:51:03    2465558

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Henshaw, Furlong, Murray, others as well. theres several who have been around set up who only moved for 1 maybe 2 years to a fee paying school often on scholarship like carbery
the schools train like pros. natural some move to these schools because of that.

the top schools have a training schedule like pro players.
they train 3 pitch sessions a week. 2/3 gym sessions a week as a group and players often do another session or two on their own as well. they also do 2/3 video sessions a week.
their matches videod and the players get copy of game and also a copy of game broken down into each area of game"
You've named 3 out of 20+. Give or take, over 80% of the Irish-raised players in the squad went to private / fee-paying schools. Given that the proportion of students in the country going to fee-paying second level schools is only around 7%, you can see how non-representative the team is of the general population.
You've pointed to some examples to show that it's changing, which are positive, but it's still very heavily skewed. I'm not having a dig at rugby, just stating some obvious facts.
I'm a GAA fan first and foremost, but I enjoy rugby a lot and have been to dozens of Connacht games.
At the same time, I realise that unless you go to one of the fee-paying powerhouse schools, your chances of reaching the top level are massively reduced.
To put it in context, over 80% of the international squad comes from 7% of the school going population. Rough maths show your chances of making the Irish squad are 88 times higher if you go to a fee-paying school, than if you don't. It's a fairly staggering number. Even twice or three times as likely would be statistically significant, but 88 times is astronomical.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2210 - 21/03/2023 17:05:54    2465565

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Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "The last time I bought a rugby program, 'educated at' was item no1 under every player profile pic. These goys are the best of us!!"
So what? They list a place where many played a lot of their rugby while growing up. they also list a club the player is affiliated with and will mention in case of a Tadhg Furlong, Sean O Brien, Donncha Ryan etc the club they originally played with as well.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3680 - 21/03/2023 17:08:23    2465567

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Replying To streaker:  "OK..
So Bundee Aki is as Irish as Kevin Kilbane?
CJ Stander is as Irish as Alan McLoughlin RIP?
James Lowe is as Irish as Gary Breen?
Jamison Gibson-Park is as Irish as Alan Kelly Jnr??

I'm not picking a fight, and it's fine if you believe that. But lads like those named above who played soccer for Ireland under the poorly titled "granny rule" did so because they were brought up as Irish by their Irish families, albeit in a different country. The situations are incomparable."
I don't believe it across the board but Breen etc would have chosen England if they thought there was a sniff. Grealish and Rice are the examples of the realities we have with the soccer team. Even now are chasing lads who have never lived a day in Ireland. Doesn't mean I won't support them but they aren't even part of the culture here. They have absolutely no affiliation to Ireland. That's my point. Why do we get so hung up on the rugby lads? It is what it is.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8191 - 21/03/2023 17:19:08    2465577

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "You've named 3 out of 20+. Give or take, over 80% of the Irish-raised players in the squad went to private / fee-paying schools. Given that the proportion of students in the country going to fee-paying second level schools is only around 7%, you can see how non-representative the team is of the general population.
You've pointed to some examples to show that it's changing, which are positive, but it's still very heavily skewed. I'm not having a dig at rugby, just stating some obvious facts.
I'm a GAA fan first and foremost, but I enjoy rugby a lot and have been to dozens of Connacht games.
At the same time, I realise that unless you go to one of the fee-paying powerhouse schools, your chances of reaching the top level are massively reduced.
To put it in context, over 80% of the international squad comes from 7% of the school going population. Rough maths show your chances of making the Irish squad are 88 times higher if you go to a fee-paying school, than if you don't. It's a fairly staggering number. Even twice or three times as likely would be statistically significant, but 88 times is astronomical."
The schools system doesn't stop the best rugby players making it. That's a fact. The outstanding ones will make it regardless. The top schools are rugby focused and many players are picked out early and a path is made for them to go to these schools to focus solely on rugby.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8191 - 21/03/2023 17:45:47    2465587

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "You've named 3 out of 20+. Give or take, over 80% of the Irish-raised players in the squad went to private / fee-paying schools. Given that the proportion of students in the country going to fee-paying second level schools is only around 7%, you can see how non-representative the team is of the general population.
You've pointed to some examples to show that it's changing, which are positive, but it's still very heavily skewed. I'm not having a dig at rugby, just stating some obvious facts.
I'm a GAA fan first and foremost, but I enjoy rugby a lot and have been to dozens of Connacht games.
At the same time, I realise that unless you go to one of the fee-paying powerhouse schools, your chances of reaching the top level are massively reduced.
To put it in context, over 80% of the international squad comes from 7% of the school going population. Rough maths show your chances of making the Irish squad are 88 times higher if you go to a fee-paying school, than if you don't. It's a fairly staggering number. Even twice or three times as likely would be statistically significant, but 88 times is astronomical."
Even Gordon D'Arcy agrees with you

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12224 - 21/03/2023 18:52:51    2465605

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Replying To TheFlaker:  "I don't believe it across the board but Breen etc would have chosen England if they thought there was a sniff. Grealish and Rice are the examples of the realities we have with the soccer team. Even now are chasing lads who have never lived a day in Ireland. Doesn't mean I won't support them but they aren't even part of the culture here. They have absolutely no affiliation to Ireland. That's my point. Why do we get so hung up on the rugby lads? It is what it is."
For what it's worth Gary Breen is 100% more Irish than James Lowe, Bundee Aki and Jamison Gibson-Park. His grandfather has All-Ireland medals. Who knows if he or others would have chosen England if they had the option. Lowe, Aki and Gibson-Park would 100% have chosen NZ. I don't begrudge them, and I'm proud of their performances for Ireland and will always cheer them on but there's no comparison.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12224 - 21/03/2023 19:25:47    2465612

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "You've named 3 out of 20+. Give or take, over 80% of the Irish-raised players in the squad went to private / fee-paying schools. Given that the proportion of students in the country going to fee-paying second level schools is only around 7%, you can see how non-representative the team is of the general population.
You've pointed to some examples to show that it's changing, which are positive, but it's still very heavily skewed. I'm not having a dig at rugby, just stating some obvious facts.
I'm a GAA fan first and foremost, but I enjoy rugby a lot and have been to dozens of Connacht games.
At the same time, I realise that unless you go to one of the fee-paying powerhouse schools, your chances of reaching the top level are massively reduced.
To put it in context, over 80% of the international squad comes from 7% of the school going population. Rough maths show your chances of making the Irish squad are 88 times higher if you go to a fee-paying school, than if you don't. It's a fairly staggering number. Even twice or three times as likely would be statistically significant, but 88 times is astronomical."
These schools train like pros so will be overly representatitve in the pro game.
look at the training schedule of the top rugby schools. 3 pitch sessions a week. players will do 2/3 gym sessions with at least 2 done as a group and led by a coach. they will do 2/3 video sessions a week including a full video review of most recent game played. they get player reviews like pro players do.
the teams are representative of irish people even with the set up.
often players move to these schools for 1/2 years and are listed after as a student of these schools
these schools will dominate for a while simply because they train more and together more than most other players.

The way the system is set up means players even in clubs are assessed and they have as much chance as those in rugby schools. if good enough you will be picked.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3680 - 21/03/2023 20:20:16    2465624

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I think one of the little details people seemt to miss when comparing non-Ireland born footballers with non-Ireland born rugby players is the entitlement to citizenship based on the constitution.

Andy Townsend, Gary Breen, Ray Houghton etc may well have chosen to play for England or Scotland if they were called up first. Yeah they meet FIFA criteria to qualify and play for Ireland based on the grandparent rule, but it's the same grand-parent rule that entitles them to Irish citizenship from birth.

Rugby players like Bundee Aki an CJ Stander were in a completely different situation. They met World Rugby's criteria to play for Ireland based on living here for 3 years. They wouldn't have met any citizenship rights / entitlements at that stage though.

If England or Scotland came calling then yeah any number of our granny rule footballers may well have played for them instead, but they regardless of that they still would have been eligible for Irish citizenship due to their grandparents.

If Glasgow, the Ospreys or Harlequins were offering bigger contracts then the likes of Aki and Stander amongst others would more likely have ended up Scottish, Welsh or English instead of Irish.

Footballers might have played for us because they weren't good enough for other countries but it doesn't take away the fact they were always eligible for Irish citizenship by birth right (Tony Cascarino aside). Something very few of the rugby imports could claim I imagine.

The rules around qualification based on residency are much stricter with FIFA then they are with World Rugby as well I believe.

if_in_doubt (Kildare) - Posts: 3685 - 22/03/2023 09:46:56    2465664

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As a proud Plastic Paddy, there's not a chance I would have worn the 3 lions if I could've kicked a ball in a straight line, same as the likes of Kilbane, Kevin Foley or David Connolly.
Grealish and Rice have given the impression that us plastics are gob******.

dolfos (Longford) - Posts: 125 - 22/03/2023 10:23:32    2465672

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Replying To dolfos:  "As a proud Plastic Paddy, there's not a chance I would have worn the 3 lions if I could've kicked a ball in a straight line, same as the likes of Kilbane, Kevin Foley or David Connolly.
Grealish and Rice have given the impression that us plastics are gob******."
You touch on something important there dolfos. I think the fallout of the Grealish and Rice episode did a lot of damage, perhaps irreparable damage to an already struggling international team.

I mean, people mention the litany of players who played for Ireland in the 80s, 90s and into the early 00s who were plastics, or were headhunted under the "granny rule", or were simply mercenaries who wanted to experience international soccer, all fine reasons in my opinion. They went on to world cups and acheived more than any other Ireland team and everyone in Ireland collectively looked the other way, and ignored the elephant in the room because it was convenient.

But Grealish and Rice being in the Ireland underage setup, experiencing the system for years, then walking away as adults, and Rice in particular having senior experience really illustrated how much of a basket case Ireland had become post-Euro 2016 and how the Ireland team was viewed by prospective players in the Premier League and Championship. True, they were walking into the best England team in a long time and that was a factor, but the whole thing showed how Ireland has declined as an option for these types of players who could have been swayed in the past. It did damage to the whole sense of pride thst players are meant to have in wearing an Irish soccer jersey.

Young_gael (Meath) - Posts: 596 - 22/03/2023 10:44:13    2465685

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Replying To if_in_doubt:  "I think one of the little details people seemt to miss when comparing non-Ireland born footballers with non-Ireland born rugby players is the entitlement to citizenship based on the constitution.

Andy Townsend, Gary Breen, Ray Houghton etc may well have chosen to play for England or Scotland if they were called up first. Yeah they meet FIFA criteria to qualify and play for Ireland based on the grandparent rule, but it's the same grand-parent rule that entitles them to Irish citizenship from birth.

Rugby players like Bundee Aki an CJ Stander were in a completely different situation. They met World Rugby's criteria to play for Ireland based on living here for 3 years. They wouldn't have met any citizenship rights / entitlements at that stage though.

If England or Scotland came calling then yeah any number of our granny rule footballers may well have played for them instead, but they regardless of that they still would have been eligible for Irish citizenship due to their grandparents.

If Glasgow, the Ospreys or Harlequins were offering bigger contracts then the likes of Aki and Stander amongst others would more likely have ended up Scottish, Welsh or English instead of Irish.

Footballers might have played for us because they weren't good enough for other countries but it doesn't take away the fact they were always eligible for Irish citizenship by birth right (Tony Cascarino aside). Something very few of the rugby imports could claim I imagine.

The rules around qualification based on residency are much stricter with FIFA then they are with World Rugby as well I believe."
Totally agree with all that…. The rules for qualifying to play international rugby is ridiculous… you could end up with 15 players with not an ounce of Irish in them belting out 'Ireland's call'….

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3150 - 22/03/2023 11:06:46    2465696

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Replying To Breffni40:  "For what it's worth Gary Breen is 100% more Irish than James Lowe, Bundee Aki and Jamison Gibson-Park. His grandfather has All-Ireland medals. Who knows if he or others would have chosen England if they had the option. Lowe, Aki and Gibson-Park would 100% have chosen NZ. I don't begrudge them, and I'm proud of their performances for Ireland and will always cheer them on but there's no comparison."
I heard Gary Breen saying that when he chose Ireland youths over England youths and told Big Sam of his decision he caught by the collar and pulled him across the table.I don't think Breen's allegiance to Ireland was ever in doubt.

gunman (Donegal) - Posts: 1126 - 22/03/2023 11:49:27    2465721

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Replying To TheFlaker:  "The schools system doesn't stop the best rugby players making it. That's a fact. The outstanding ones will make it regardless. The top schools are rugby focused and many players are picked out early and a path is made for them to go to these schools to focus solely on rugby."
Of course it doesn't stop the very best from making it. But it's a massive advantage for those who can afford to attend a private school.
If your parents can't send you to a fee-paying school, you're at a huge disadvantage compared to those who can. The numbers are stark.
There are people who would have made incredible rugby players if they had the opportunity to attend a fee-paying rugby school. It's in rugby's interest to broaden the net and I understand some steps are being taken. But it's still massively skewed towards those who have the opportunity to attend these schools.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2210 - 22/03/2023 11:49:58    2465722

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Replying To Breffni40:  "For what it's worth Gary Breen is 100% more Irish than James Lowe, Bundee Aki and Jamison Gibson-Park. His grandfather has All-Ireland medals. Who knows if he or others would have chosen England if they had the option. Lowe, Aki and Gibson-Park would 100% have chosen NZ. I don't begrudge them, and I'm proud of their performances for Ireland and will always cheer them on but there's no comparison."
Exactly who knows? I am not going to single out Breen it was more a response to another poster. Rice and Grealish are more the point I am making. In almost every case we chase a player that isn't going to get capped for England. Players who don't spend anytime in Ireland. I don't begrudge any of the rugby or soccer lads. But plenty on here do, that's the point of this argument.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8191 - 22/03/2023 12:11:38    2465731

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "Totally agree with all that…. The rules for qualifying to play international rugby is ridiculous… you could end up with 15 players with not an ounce of Irish in them belting out 'Ireland's call'…."
They can belt away. Its ***** anyway.

Ollie2 (Louth) - Posts: 937 - 22/03/2023 12:55:00    2465749

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Replying To gunman:  "I heard Gary Breen saying that when he chose Ireland youths over England youths and told Big Sam of his decision he caught by the collar and pulled him across the table.I don't think Breen's allegiance to Ireland was ever in doubt."
That was Kevin Kilbane. I wouldn't question Gary Breen either though. Himself and David Connolly have spoken regularly about the Irish communities in which they grew up.
Connolly is from a big hurling family.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2210 - 22/03/2023 14:43:41    2465794

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Replying To Ollie2:  "They can belt away. Its ***** anyway."
I know… "Irelands call" is embarrassing and used as our anthem especially away from home.. Our national anthem should be played before all international matches…not that other muck

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3150 - 22/03/2023 16:19:00    2465857

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "I know… "Irelands call" is embarrassing and used as our anthem especially away from home.. Our national anthem should be played before all international matches…not that other muck"
If the Ireland/Southern Hemisphere XV we have at the moment decided to do a Haka before a game, it'd be an improvement on Irelands Call...

streaker (Galway) - Posts: 504 - 22/03/2023 16:54:40    2465875

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Replying To streaker:  "If the Ireland/Southern Hemisphere XV we have at the moment decided to do a Haka before a game, it'd be an improvement on Irelands Call..."
Well I guess a lot of them wouldn't recognise the countries national anthem in any case

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3150 - 23/03/2023 16:00:58    2466067

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