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Replying To Gleebo:  "I didn't say I wouldn't vote. And in terms of polling, they mattered enough two years ago, when large enough numbers of the under 40s turned out enough to finally force Tweedledum and Tweedledee into coalition together, something which few people thought would ever happen.

The relevation that three-quarters of our parliamentarians stand to benefit financially from soaring property values, while doing little or nothing to correct said issues through legislation, might just wake people up enough to get out there and force change. But we'll see."
73% of the people who live in homes in Ireland own them, so who benefits from soaring property prices. Everyone has their own take on the property crises, young people with jobs, students and people looking for social welfare housing. Dublin has the biggest issue but where do you build when planning does not favor high rises - you then have the issue that planning is sometimes only granted if there is a social welfare portion in it and that creates a lot of negativity. Students need to be near the Unis but where do they put the blocks? who is going to invest the money to build them? people complain when its done by Private Equity funds as if they are ripping everyone off. Should the government do it - we have seen over the years that government involvement in what is non essential business is a disaster.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1512 - 24/09/2022 09:41:36    2441689

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Replying To KillingFields:  "
Replying To Gleebo:  "[quote=KillingFields:  "[quote=Gleebo:  "i dont like FF. But wouldnt call them chancers. Any party who's been in government for as long as they have in this state isnt a bunch of chancers.

Ah here! Let me introduce you to a few historical crises caused by said bunch of chancers, namely the economic war of the 1930s; their pro-inflationary policies in the late 70s that presaged our economic crisis in the 1980s; and their term in office in the late 90s/2000s which forced the country to go cap in hand to the EU and IMF a few years later.

They are nothing if not chancers, and I haven't seen anything to change my mind in recent years on that score."
Theyre not chancers though. Which is what was said.
They knew what they were doing. Yes they have had some big crises but any one in power that long will have. thats natural especially considering our history....
1930s. we were a new state. very poor one as well historically and i will never vote for them ever as i dont agree with their politics if they were chancers theyd never have got the level of electoral succes theyve had in this country"
Ah look, for someone who claims not to like FF, you're spending a lot of time defending them.

Yes, they are chancers. I judge politicians and political parties on what they seek to do, not just the winning of power. If winning elections is all that matters, then sure the likes of Fidez in Hungary or Law and Justice in Poland are master statesmen.

FF have no overriding ideology, policy beliefs or moral compass and will simply do whatever they think will win them power. I'm not a big fan of FG either, but through the Tallaght Strategy, they put the national interest above their own party political interests to put a brake on national spending and to avoid an IMF bailout. Hard to see FF ever doing similar.

Every time FF get into government for a significant period (let's say more than one term), there's a crisis in Ireland. From waging an economic war in the 1930s on the British when they were responsible for 90 per cent of our trade; to the mass emigration of the 50s to the overspending that led to severe economic contractions in the 1980s; to sundering the country financially in the 2000s.

They are spoofers. Unfortunately they seem to be an addiction that a good portion of the Irish electorate have trouble kicking, but that doesn't mean they know what they're doing in policy terms."]Saying FF have no overriding ideology or policy beliefs just shows you havent a notion.
Ireland was far from only country to get into issues at those times. 50s was post war and all the issues around that. 30s was great depression. if they were just spoofers theyd have been found out about and would not have coome back again and again in power"]Saying FF have no overriding ideology or policy beliefs just shows you havent a notion.
Ireland was far from only country to get into issues at those times. 50s was post war and all the issues around that. 30s was great depression. if they were just spoofers theyd have been found out about and would not have coome back again and again in power


Maybe instead of repeating ad hominems, you could actually contribute to this debate by outlining your interpretation of what their core ideology/policies are these days? Because I'll give you a breakdown of the various "core policies" that they have abandoned over their history:

-Taking their seats in 1927 and swearing the oath of allegiance, despite styling themselves as "the republican party" and being pro-abstentionist a short time before;

-Interning republicans without trial in the 1930s, despite having released most of them just a few years before;

-Turning down an offer of reunification in the 1940s, despite being officially in favour;

-Abandoning decades of policy commitment to autarchy/self-sufficiency/import substitution in the 1960s under Seán Lemass to court foreign capital investment;

-Claiming to be a party of the working class in the 1980s while engaging in endemic corruption (Charvet suits, Ansbacher accounts and Celtic helicopters, anyone?);

-Joining a coalition government with the PDs in the 1980s, despite having been claiming coalition government as inherently unstable for the previous several decades;

-Claiming to be a "socialist" party (according to Bertie, anyway) in the 90s and 2000s whilst presiding over a massive increase in income inequality, a lack of regulation of financial interests and an increase in social malaises such as child poverty;

-Abandoning almost a century of refusal to coalesce with Fine Gael through the confidence and supply agreement in the 2010s.

Now, you might say that pragmatism is a part of politics, but no other party has junked what they claim to be core ideological principles as often as FF. They quite clearly view themselves as the embodiment of the Irish people in a way, and ideology can mean whatever they say it does, even if they espoused the polar opposite a short time before.

As regards the "spoofers" issue, you seem to think that electorates can't be duped, bribed, have misinformation thrown at them or be persuaded to vote against their own welfare, when in fact its been happening all over the Western world, particularly in the last decade or so. Winning elections doesn't mean you know what you're doing in terms of policy, and FF are the ultimate example of that.

BTW, waging the Economic War in the 30s was a decision that FF took unilaterally, it had nothing to do with the great depression. Who knew that launching a tariff war against your largest trading partner, who was consuming 90 per cent of your foreign exports, could end badly?

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 2208 - 24/09/2022 11:43:46    2441695

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Replying To zinny:  "73% of the people who live in homes in Ireland own them, so who benefits from soaring property prices. Everyone has their own take on the property crises, young people with jobs, students and people looking for social welfare housing. Dublin has the biggest issue but where do you build when planning does not favor high rises - you then have the issue that planning is sometimes only granted if there is a social welfare portion in it and that creates a lot of negativity. Students need to be near the Unis but where do they put the blocks? who is going to invest the money to build them? people complain when its done by Private Equity funds as if they are ripping everyone off. Should the government do it - we have seen over the years that government involvement in what is non essential business is a disaster."
The EU stat that you are referring to also states that Ireland has the ninth lowest rate of home ownership within the EU, which to me suggests that the soaring prices are an impediment to buying for a growing segment of the population (probably mostly in the younger age brackets). So IMO the stat you refer to will shrink in future, especially as little if any social/low cost accommodation is being built.

Some people benefit financially from the status quo, but IMO we are in for another hard landing in a few years time, especially if we suffer another recession. Ireland's new builds have risen sharply since 2015, which makes me question who will buy them in future if a growing proportion of our population is struggling- more vulture funds/ foreign buyers? Doesn't seem prudent to me.

The issue with private equity funds coming in is real, and is a legacy of the disastrous overheating of the Irish property market in the 2000s. These mostly US investment funds got a taste of the good stuff by buying sites at knockdown prices in the NAMA firesale and are clearly intent on milking Irish renters for their shareholders back home.

Should such funds be allowed to swoop in and buy out entire housing estates for rent in the commuter belt, as happened recently in Maynooth and some parts of Dublin? Most ordinary people can't compete with them to purchase a house.

I'll give you a personal example of how the venture capital funds operate: an aunt of mine is a civil servant in the west, has been faithfully repaying her mortgage every month for the best part of twenty years. A few years back, she and her husband noticed that the interest rate seemed to be varying from month to month, without any warning from their mortgage provider (an Irish building society which had been saved in the recession). Anyway, it turns out that a US venture capital fund had bought out the loanbook of the building society, and was allowed to adjust the terms of the repayment unilaterally, without any supervision or regulation from any financial authority in Ireland.

Thankfully, they were able to transfer their mortgage to an Irish mortgage provider for a minimal fee. But this anecdote to me shows that there are many, many holes in our system at the moment (Priory Hall being another, a national disgrace in my opinion).

I do think that the government should take charge of social housing, yes, even if that means offering the private sector financial incentives to build them (or by mandating social housing as part of new developments). I've travelled a fair bit as part of my job and almost every country in Western Europe manages social housing better than us, particularly in Germany and Austria, where you'd hardly notice the difference between social and private houses in many places.

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 2208 - 24/09/2022 12:17:09    2441698

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Replying To updwell:  "Didn't Trump try to hold Zelensky to ransom by withholding monies to bolster Ukraine armed forces because he wanted dirt on Bidens son. Thank God he wasn't in power for the Russian invasion, his buddy Putin would be marching down the Champs Elyssie at this stage probably with Trump waving him on."
Much to the chagrin of those who wanted to impeach trump, , Zelensky completely denied that any such blackmail took place, although you'll probably, ironically, dismiss that as "fake news", and seeing as how the Russians can barely take Ukraine, I don't think they'll be marching down the champs ekysee anytime soon.
Russias struggles in the Ukraine have proven beyond doubt that Russia was never the threat that trumps opponents claimed it was, and I've no doubt that despite their cries for peace etc, many European and American politicians are happy to see that war continue as they want to see the Russian army burn out and weaken.
Russia began planning for that war only a matter of days after Bidens inauguration.
Not a coincidence.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1359 - 24/09/2022 14:25:04    2441705

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Replying To TheFlaker:  "I am not for a minute saying Biden has been brilliant but some of the things you listed there he has had no part in. Inflation is a worldwide issue not an American one. What happened in Afghanistan was nothing to do with him, surely you knew the agreements were in place pre Biden? Immigration has been a mess for years, not an easy thing to fix short term. And Russia invading the Ukraine? Is that the fault of Biden? And what did you expect him to do? Attack Russia? Send thousands of troops? Not sure what your point is here? Biden has actually done a lot of good but the noise on the right means it doesn't get as much attention.

As for 24? Name the one or two Republicans you think will definitely win?"
Ah fur gods sake it's over 2 years away yet.
Whichever Republican runs may not even have developed a profile yet.
Most people outside the states, and many within had only heard a passing reference to obama before he won a landslide victory in 08.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1359 - 24/09/2022 14:27:17    2441706

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Replying To Gleebo:  "The EU stat that you are referring to also states that Ireland has the ninth lowest rate of home ownership within the EU, which to me suggests that the soaring prices are an impediment to buying for a growing segment of the population (probably mostly in the younger age brackets). So IMO the stat you refer to will shrink in future, especially as little if any social/low cost accommodation is being built.

Some people benefit financially from the status quo, but IMO we are in for another hard landing in a few years time, especially if we suffer another recession. Ireland's new builds have risen sharply since 2015, which makes me question who will buy them in future if a growing proportion of our population is struggling- more vulture funds/ foreign buyers? Doesn't seem prudent to me.

The issue with private equity funds coming in is real, and is a legacy of the disastrous overheating of the Irish property market in the 2000s. These mostly US investment funds got a taste of the good stuff by buying sites at knockdown prices in the NAMA firesale and are clearly intent on milking Irish renters for their shareholders back home.

Should such funds be allowed to swoop in and buy out entire housing estates for rent in the commuter belt, as happened recently in Maynooth and some parts of Dublin? Most ordinary people can't compete with them to purchase a house.

I'll give you a personal example of how the venture capital funds operate: an aunt of mine is a civil servant in the west, has been faithfully repaying her mortgage every month for the best part of twenty years. A few years back, she and her husband noticed that the interest rate seemed to be varying from month to month, without any warning from their mortgage provider (an Irish building society which had been saved in the recession). Anyway, it turns out that a US venture capital fund had bought out the loanbook of the building society, and was allowed to adjust the terms of the repayment unilaterally, without any supervision or regulation from any financial authority in Ireland.

Thankfully, they were able to transfer their mortgage to an Irish mortgage provider for a minimal fee. But this anecdote to me shows that there are many, many holes in our system at the moment (Priory Hall being another, a national disgrace in my opinion).

I do think that the government should take charge of social housing, yes, even if that means offering the private sector financial incentives to build them (or by mandating social housing as part of new developments). I've travelled a fair bit as part of my job and almost every country in Western Europe manages social housing better than us, particularly in Germany and Austria, where you'd hardly notice the difference between social and private houses in many places."
In many instances here in galway you'd notice a huge difference between social and private houses, the social houses are bigger, nicer and more modernised.

Makes you wonder why anyone would work and take out a mortgage.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1359 - 24/09/2022 14:31:33    2441707

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "Trump is a streetwise salesemen. Expanded his market and told enough of the electorate what they wanted to hear to get elected. The 'liberal' Democrats helped, didn't take him for a credible candidate, ran one of their worst presidential election candidates against him, completely complacent about the outcome. A lot of Trump voters are uneducated beyond maybe high school, believe a lot of what they hear on television and unsocial media so easy to get them to buy what you're selling. They'd spend $20 on gas to get to Walmart to save $10 in a Black Friday sale. Some good people involved with both Republican and Democrat parties.Arguably the right in the US are more socialist than the left. But it's easier to be a 'liberal' Democrat when your parents money paid for your third level education, helping you to get a good job, earn good money, travel otside the U.S, be more openminded to new ideas, maybe even be 'tolerant', or not. Arguably the right in the US are more socialist than the left. Money in the bank, educated, fairly openminded, Obamacare seems like a plan you can easily afford. Working class, uneducated, some of your hard earned cash going to Obamacare isn't such a good plan for you. Then you see this mad lad on the telly, The Don, telling you he'll build a wall, smash Obamacare, curb the terrorists, the stuff you want to hear. Not a hard choice who to vote for, him or the charismatic lady who didn't leave her philandering husband."
Think that's a nasty post, a real arrogance about it. The idea that if you don't swallow up what a book says and regurgitate it onto an exam paper and become "educated" you must somehow be a lesser being.
Imagine spending years in college working on a degree that with any foresight you should have known would ultimately prove to be worthless, then leaving said college with said worthless degree and a mountain of debt, and then joining the Labour force way later than you could have, and claiming to be more worldwise that those other people who didn't waste time in college and are now further along in the labour force.

I spent years listening to people lambast the college system for being out of reach for poor Americans,, those same people then used that same lack of college education as a stick to beat people with post trumps election in 2016.
Not being able to see the irony there is the definition of uneducated imo.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1359 - 24/09/2022 14:43:16    2441712

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Replying To Galway9801:  "In many instances here in galway you'd notice a huge difference between social and private houses, the social houses are bigger, nicer and more modernised.

Makes you wonder why anyone would work and take out a mortgage."
Does not take long for the people who are given houses to wreck them.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11054 - 24/09/2022 15:19:42    2441714

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Replying To yew_tree:  "Does not take long for the people who are given houses to wreck them."
I'm lucky enough to have bought during the crash, prices were very low and my mortgage is effectively gone, if I were starting out today, working 40 /50 hours a week, trying to get a mortgage, dealing with banks, while suffering the ignominy of seeing other people around me who don't contribute being given new houses free of charge it would make me sick to my stomach.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1359 - 24/09/2022 16:16:32    2441721

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Replying To Galway9801:  "I'm lucky enough to have bought during the crash, prices were very low and my mortgage is effectively gone, if I were starting out today, working 40 /50 hours a week, trying to get a mortgage, dealing with banks, while suffering the ignominy of seeing other people around me who don't contribute being given new houses free of charge it would make me sick to my stomach."
Who's being given houses 'free of charge'?

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2061 - 24/09/2022 18:22:29    2441735

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Replying To Galway9801:  "Think that's a nasty post, a real arrogance about it. The idea that if you don't swallow up what a book says and regurgitate it onto an exam paper and become "educated" you must somehow be a lesser being.
Imagine spending years in college working on a degree that with any foresight you should have known would ultimately prove to be worthless, then leaving said college with said worthless degree and a mountain of debt, and then joining the Labour force way later than you could have, and claiming to be more worldwise that those other people who didn't waste time in college and are now further along in the labour force.

I spent years listening to people lambast the college system for being out of reach for poor Americans,, those same people then used that same lack of college education as a stick to beat people with post trumps election in 2016.
Not being able to see the irony there is the definition of uneducated imo."
You misintrepreted what I posted.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 6880 - 24/09/2022 18:31:32    2441737

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Replying To Galway9801:  "In many instances here in galway you'd notice a huge difference between social and private houses, the social houses are bigger, nicer and more modernised.

Makes you wonder why anyone would work and take out a mortgage."
Same everywhere, the same people might have better cars, more holidays than the working family with a couple of young children. Help with school meals, uniforms etc. A hard working family should be getting help as much as scrounges.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 1502 - 24/09/2022 18:40:32    2441739

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "Who's being given houses 'free of charge'?"
Exactly, the vast majority of people in social accommodation work and pay rent for their homes. And if we could build more social housing, in the long term the exchequer would avoid paying the fortunes that it currently does to house people in overnight accommodation like hotels, hostels etc.

But the mainstream media is only interested in hyping the cases where a minority might abuse the system.

It's an eye opener to see fellas from the West of Ireland rushing to kick the poor on here though, given what our forebearers had to go through to win basic tenancy rights for ordinary people. "The land for the people", indeed! Michael Davitt was spot-on when he forecast the dangers of replacing English landlords with local ones.

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 2208 - 25/09/2022 12:22:13    2441779

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Replying To Galway9801:  "Think that's a nasty post, a real arrogance about it. The idea that if you don't swallow up what a book says and regurgitate it onto an exam paper and become "educated" you must somehow be a lesser being.
Imagine spending years in college working on a degree that with any foresight you should have known would ultimately prove to be worthless, then leaving said college with said worthless degree and a mountain of debt, and then joining the Labour force way later than you could have, and claiming to be more worldwise that those other people who didn't waste time in college and are now further along in the labour force.

I spent years listening to people lambast the college system for being out of reach for poor Americans,, those same people then used that same lack of college education as a stick to beat people with post trumps election in 2016.
Not being able to see the irony there is the definition of uneducated imo."
Respectfully, what did Trump do for those blue collar Americans who voted for him in large numbers?

He failed to halt or reverse illegal immigration, which is the kind that could most affect working people. His tax break package overwhelmingly benefited higher income people and corporations. He removed Obamacare, which mandated healthcare coverage for workers in all but the smallest of companies. He also mismanaged the Covid pandemic which resulted in the US having a very high death rate by international standards.

I guess that you could say that he created a lot of jobs, but most of these were zero hours type jobs, which tend to be low paid and weighted very much in favour of corporations, and the Republicans tend to vote against things like unionization, workers' rights, student loan forgiveness etc. that would help ordinary people.

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 2208 - 25/09/2022 13:01:35    2441783

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "Who's being given houses 'free of charge'?"
I personally know 5 (five) people, who have been provided with new houses,"forever homes" for something in the region of 55 euro a month, technically not free, but come on, if I was renting that'd probably sort me out for a kettle.
One of those people has since moved out into her boyfriends home and she's eirbnb'ed her council house lol.
Another one of them had a house, but let it go to rot, damp mould on the walls etc,no probs, here's a brand new one smh.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1359 - 25/09/2022 13:30:33    2441788

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Replying To Gleebo:  "Exactly, the vast majority of people in social accommodation work and pay rent for their homes. And if we could build more social housing, in the long term the exchequer would avoid paying the fortunes that it currently does to house people in overnight accommodation like hotels, hostels etc.

But the mainstream media is only interested in hyping the cases where a minority might abuse the system.

It's an eye opener to see fellas from the West of Ireland rushing to kick the poor on here though, given what our forebearers had to go through to win basic tenancy rights for ordinary people. "The land for the people", indeed! Michael Davitt was spot-on when he forecast the dangers of replacing English landlords with local ones."
Nobodies kicking anyone here.
If I was offered a house for nothing I'd take it without so much as a moments thought.
If one person has to spend 30 or 40 years paying for a house while the person next door or in the next estate gets the same house or even perhaps a nicer one for nothing, well that's wrong.
No harm in pointing that out.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1359 - 25/09/2022 13:37:22    2441790

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Replying To Galway9801:  "Nobodies kicking anyone here.
If I was offered a house for nothing I'd take it without so much as a moments thought.
If one person has to spend 30 or 40 years paying for a house while the person next door or in the next estate gets the same house or even perhaps a nicer one for nothing, well that's wrong.
No harm in pointing that out."
No? Seems a lot like it to me.

If it's a free house you're after, I'd advise you to enter the many GAA club draws round this country offering just that (or almost free, €50 isn't much of an outlay compared with the average cost of a mortgage in Ireland, these days). No one is suggesting here that all social housing should be free, or that people should be given luxury accommodation for nothing, that's what's called a strawman. Plenty of people in Ireland have bought their own council house eventually through incentive schemes.

But I think it's fair to say that every one should have the option of some sort of roof over their heads at night. You could faithfully pay your mortgage repayments for 29 years out of a 30 year agreement, but if you lose your job or get sick and can't repay the last payments, the bank will take the roof out from over your head the same as if you didn't pay anything. Never did seem equitable to me.

And many people renting privately in Dublin especially are paying greater sums of money each month than those with mortgages, but still can't progress to home ownership because the exorbitant cost of renting saps their savings. Makes no sense and is ultimately self-defeating...

Your comments surrounding tales of people getting large houses off the taxpayer have a strong whiff of "dúirt bean liom go ndúirt bean léi". People say the same thing about immigrants and refugees all the time, invariably such tales tend to be BS.

And don't forget, people enter into a mortgage voluntarily, it's a choice. Nobody forces anyone into one, although increasingly the younger generations are being priced out of them. The more I think of it, most of Michael Davitt's ideas- fair rent, freedom of sale, fixity of tenure- are still relevant today.

Ireland is a rich country by global standards, even if a lot of people are struggling at the moment. We should be able to provide basic needs-food, shelter, clothing, heating- to our people who need it. And certainly, there's something very wrong in the great scheme of things where mostly American venture capital funds can snap up entire housing estates before they enter the market for ordinary Irish people. It's almost as if they want large numbers of Irish people to be stuck in rentals for their own enrichment, or something?

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 2208 - 25/09/2022 14:31:47    2441793

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Replying To Galway9801:  "Nobodies kicking anyone here.
If I was offered a house for nothing I'd take it without so much as a moments thought.
If one person has to spend 30 or 40 years paying for a house while the person next door or in the next estate gets the same house or even perhaps a nicer one for nothing, well that's wrong.
No harm in pointing that out."
I'll ask you again, who is "getting a house for nothing"?

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2061 - 25/09/2022 15:02:02    2441799

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Great to have TheMaster back. Or his twin brother from Galway .

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7367 - 25/09/2022 17:11:39    2441806

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Replying To TheFlaker:  "Great to have TheMaster back. Or his twin brother from Galway ."
This person isnt the Master. no chance of that

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 2929 - 25/09/2022 17:30:20    2441807

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