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Replying To Viking66: "Those lives were surely not wasted. There is a commitment now in place that when a majority in the 6 counties want a re-unified Ireland then that will be done. That commitment would never have been entertained by a British government if there had of been no armed struggle.
People of a Nationalist persuasion have fair representation in Stormont, which is another thing that wouldn't have been achieved by the civil rights movement by itself. Gerrymandering is something that the people of the 6 counties only have to read about in history books. There is far more equality of opportunity, employment, housing and education than there was before also. The PSNI while far from perfect is infinitely more even handed than the RUC were in the 1960s. Irish is now an official language in Northern Ireland. While most of these were objectives of the civil rights movement they wouldn't have been achieved if the Nationalist people in the 6 counties hadn't stood up for themselves.
Your posts are implying that the civil rights movement was something completely seperate to the republican movement. It was in the early to mid 60s, but the republican movement gained more and more popular support as a result of how the British State treated the civil rights movement. Many leaders of the civil rights movement, especially the younger ones, became the new leaders of the republican movement after the split in the IRA, as they were more militant than the older lads who were already in the IRA since the early 1960s and before. Most of these older lads formed the Official IRA after the split, while most of the younger lads who only came to prominence as members and then leaders of the civil rights movement in the late 60s went on to form the Provisional IRA. The PIRA experienced a huge growth in numbers directly as a consequence of British action towards the civil rights movement. The 2 movements, Republican and Civil Rights, were both pretty much led on the ground by the same younger lads at this stage. I think it's poor out of anyone to suggest that these lads were motivated by money or power, as they simply didn't have either. They were mainly motivated by anger and sadness. The whole bad situation snowballed from there.
As regards the Brits and infiltration they built a very large empire on the principle of divide and conquer. They were the masters of subterfuge since the middle ages. Like most world powers before and since. If anyone believes that they didn't have a good idea who thought what then they are incredibly naive. At the same time if they had the power to lead the Republican movement anywhere they wouldn't ever have conceded the prospect of a re-united Ireland in order to achieve a ceasefire and a longer lasting peace in the 6 counties." What prospect of a united Ireland is there that there was not in 1922? Or in 1973 when there was a border poll which republicans boycotted?
How is a united Ireland more likely to come about through another gerrymandered election or referendum than it was then?
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2835 - 10/06/2024 16:38:02
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "What prospect of a united Ireland is there that there was not in 1922? Or in 1973 when there was a border poll which republicans boycotted?
How is a united Ireland more likely to come about through another gerrymandered election or referendum than it was then?" Ah god Barney go read a book or 2. Or talk to some people that were there. The SDLP organised the boycott as they thought the Border Poll would escalate the violence.
The poll was tokenism at its worse. The result was never going to be in doubt on account of the demographics of the time.
If partition hadn't been accepted in 1920 then there wouldn't be a need for Polls etc. The fear of bloodshed, in the North especially, which was a reason cited for Partition in the 1st place, would maybe not have been much worse than the civil war we had anyway.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12799 - 10/06/2024 17:02:31
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Replying To Viking66: "Ah god Barney go read a book or 2. Or talk to some people that were there. The SDLP organised the boycott as they thought the Border Poll would escalate the violence.
The poll was tokenism at its worse. The result was never going to be in doubt on account of the demographics of the time.
If partition hadn't been accepted in 1920 then there wouldn't be a need for Polls etc. The fear of bloodshed, in the North especially, which was a reason cited for Partition in the 1st place, would maybe not have been much worse than the civil war we had anyway." I didn't ask you for a rant, i asked you why you think a poll would lead to a united Ireland.
What is your evidence. By the way, I do not need to ask people "who were there."
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2835 - 10/06/2024 18:11:39
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "I didn't ask you for a rant, i asked you why you think a poll would lead to a united Ireland.
What is your evidence. By the way, I do not need to ask people "who were there."" Your facts might be truer if you did. Or even if you read up about it. Youd know who organised the boycott anyway. And by the way I don't think there should be a border poll right now. And I've never said that I did in any post.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12799 - 10/06/2024 21:56:30
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "I didn't ask you for a rant, i asked you why you think a poll would lead to a united Ireland.
What is your evidence. By the way, I do not need to ask people "who were there."" Your facts might be truer if you did. Or even if you read up about it. Youd know who organised the boycott anyway. And by the way I don't think there should be a border poll right now. And I've never said that I did in any post.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12799 - 10/06/2024 21:56:42
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "What prospect of a united Ireland is there that there was not in 1922? Or in 1973 when there was a border poll which republicans boycotted?
How is a united Ireland more likely to come about through another gerrymandered election or referendum than it was then?" They're very different demographics now to be fair.
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2882 - 10/06/2024 22:26:03
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You might read what you wrote yourself about Stormont and the Brits conceding prospect of united Ireland before you read something other than wikipedia :-)
Nationalist/pro unity vote has barely moved from around 40% in 1998. THAT'S the only clue to how a poll might go. THAT'S why there has been none and will be none. SF keep on about it because it is a distraction from their utter failure to advance cause of unity.
As for demographics, there have always been Catholic unionists (small u who vote SDLP and Alliance) and the major demographic trend is driven as in rest of country by immigration. Census and other figures indicate that this will strengthen rather than weaken unionist votes.
BTW, Catholics could always have gotten "fair representation" in Stormont by bowing the head and accepting Partition and British rule. Now they have.
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2835 - 11/06/2024 08:16:57
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "You might read what you wrote yourself about Stormont and the Brits conceding prospect of united Ireland before you read something other than wikipedia :-)
Nationalist/pro unity vote has barely moved from around 40% in 1998. THAT'S the only clue to how a poll might go. THAT'S why there has been none and will be none. SF keep on about it because it is a distraction from their utter failure to advance cause of unity.
As for demographics, there have always been Catholic unionists (small u who vote SDLP and Alliance) and the major demographic trend is driven as in rest of country by immigration. Census and other figures indicate that this will strengthen rather than weaken unionist votes.
BTW, Catholics could always have gotten "fair representation" in Stormont by bowing the head and accepting Partition and British rule. Now they have." They haven't "bowed their heads and accepted British rule". What a completely ignorant post.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12799 - 11/06/2024 08:49:22
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Replying To Viking66: "They haven't "bowed their heads and accepted British rule". What a completely ignorant post." Perhaps some time you might take the time to respond to my stats on the actual situation with proof of your claims? Namely, statistical proof of move towards unity?
Of course, alternatively you can just respond with ad hominen insults.
PS. any party who runs the north is de facto and de jure not only accepting of British rule, but is administering British rule in that part of Ireland.
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2835 - 11/06/2024 12:03:10
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "Perhaps some time you might take the time to respond to my stats on the actual situation with proof of your claims? Namely, statistical proof of move towards unity?
Of course, alternatively you can just respond with ad hominen insults.
PS. any party who runs the north is de facto and de jure not only accepting of British rule, but is administering British rule in that part of Ireland." Have you any solutions as to what SF or any nationalist party could have done to achieve a united Ireland? or do you just take pleasure in looking down your nose at northern Catholics and the political plight they've been in for a century?
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2425 - 11/06/2024 13:06:27
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Replying To SaffronDon: "Have you any solutions as to what SF or any nationalist party could have done to achieve a united Ireland? or do you just take pleasure in looking down your nose at northern Catholics and the political plight they've been in for a century?" I don't look down on northern Catholics (and I mean Catholics as opposed to former ones) at all. Been betrayed for over a century by the rest of us collectively.
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2835 - 11/06/2024 13:30:59
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I don't remember who it was who said/wrote this after the GFA in 1998, they said that
'the unionists were too stupid to see that they had won and the nationalists were too smart to admit they had lost'
I would love to see our country reunited,
hard to see it happening though in reality, the catholic/nationalists seem happy enough if Stormont is working for them and they are getting their share of the British pie.
SF got a taught a lesson in the local/european election, they are not listening to their core voters,
I'd say we are heading for a general election in October after the budget.
Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 2845 - 11/06/2024 13:56:08
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "I don't look down on northern Catholics (and I mean Catholics as opposed to former ones) at all. Been betrayed for over a century by the rest of us collectively." So the Shinners who represent the majority of northern Catholics are no longer Catholics in your book and you don't have any solutions better than theirs for achieving Irish unity. What a wonderful armchair salute, comrade.
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2425 - 11/06/2024 14:07:21
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Replying To SaffronDon: "So the Shinners who represent the majority of northern Catholics are no longer Catholics in your book and you don't have any solutions better than theirs for achieving Irish unity. What a wonderful armchair salute, comrade." I spent long enough out of my armchair, mo chara (not a communist so no comrades:-)
Ending an unwinnable war by an organisation infiltrated by agents was good idea. Next step did not have to be capitulation. Could have campaigned for a 32 county vote on unity.
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2835 - 11/06/2024 14:17:22
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Replying To Tirchonaill1: "I don't remember who it was who said/wrote this after the GFA in 1998, they said that
'the unionists were too stupid to see that they had won and the nationalists were too smart to admit they had lost'
I would love to see our country reunited,
hard to see it happening though in reality, the catholic/nationalists seem happy enough if Stormont is working for them and they are getting their share of the British pie.
SF got a taught a lesson in the local/european election, they are not listening to their core voters,
I'd say we are heading for a general election in October after the budget." The big thing from that era was Britain finally saying they no longer have a strategic interest in the north. Militarily things have moved on since WW1 and WW2, Ireland (26C) is seen as friendly neighbour now with an economy based on services intertwined in the global capitalist system. The USSR is gone and there is no risk of Ireland being used as a launch pad for Brittanias enemies. You also now have a political establishment in England who actually want rid of the north and probably the majority of the British public. If nationalism can get support anywhere near the 50 per cent mark for reunification, the British will be more than keen to off load.
Stormont is working for now until the next disagreement where it will be deadlock again. The time was ripe for getting more support for a UI after Brexit and when the DUP had everything at a standstill. I think SF missed a trick not publishing a plan for reunification. There are a lot of small u unionists who would entertain a discussion on unity but want to know more detail. SF were banking on getting into government down south before they did any ground work on it and now that looks like it might be further off than they thought.
MachaireConnacht (Roscommon) - Posts: 909 - 11/06/2024 14:32:58
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Replying To MachaireConnacht: "The big thing from that era was Britain finally saying they no longer have a strategic interest in the north. Militarily things have moved on since WW1 and WW2, Ireland (26C) is seen as friendly neighbour now with an economy based on services intertwined in the global capitalist system. The USSR is gone and there is no risk of Ireland being used as a launch pad for Brittanias enemies. You also now have a political establishment in England who actually want rid of the north and probably the majority of the British public. If nationalism can get support anywhere near the 50 per cent mark for reunification, the British will be more than keen to off load.
Stormont is working for now until the next disagreement where it will be deadlock again. The time was ripe for getting more support for a UI after Brexit and when the DUP had everything at a standstill. I think SF missed a trick not publishing a plan for reunification. There are a lot of small u unionists who would entertain a discussion on unity but want to know more detail. SF were banking on getting into government down south before they did any ground work on it and now that looks like it might be further off than they thought." The USSR is gone but Putin is making a good fist of it again.
Ireland may not be a threat to the UK (as they see it) anymore but we are a weak link in European defence. We are quite happy to piggyback or other nations and let the RAF defend our skies and patrol our seas. Only last week British, French and Norwegian aircraft had to be deployed off our west coast and the Russians were sniffing around again (probably after the telecommunications cables)
yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11296 - 11/06/2024 15:15:55
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "I don't look down on northern Catholics (and I mean Catholics as opposed to former ones) at all. Been betrayed for over a century by the rest of us collectively." Spot on Barney.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12799 - 11/06/2024 16:45:01
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "Perhaps some time you might take the time to respond to my stats on the actual situation with proof of your claims? Namely, statistical proof of move towards unity?
Of course, alternatively you can just respond with ad hominen insults.
PS. any party who runs the north is de facto and de jure not only accepting of British rule, but is administering British rule in that part of Ireland." You said the Republicans organised the boycott of the 73 poll. You were wrong. They aren't running the 6 counties for the British, they are running it for the people of the 6 counties. Stormont isn't a national government, it doesn't do much more than Dublin City Council at the end of the day.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12799 - 11/06/2024 16:50:22
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After spending two successful stints with Man U. Ronaldo is still playing to his own unique level of greatness, still scoring goals all at 39 years of age, surely one of the greatest players ever. Given half a chance Man U would surely buy him back - - - at any price.
supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2929 - 11/06/2024 22:24:09
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Replying To supersub15: "After spending two successful stints with Man U. Ronaldo is still playing to his own unique level of greatness, still scoring goals all at 39 years of age, surely one of the greatest players ever. Given half a chance Man U would surely buy him back - - - at any price." I don't think his second stint at Utd was very successful… they couldn't wait to get shot of him.. but he is still producing the goods at 39… fair play to him..
ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 2158 - 11/06/2024 23:22:59
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