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Replying To BarneyGrant: "They are indeed. Again, look at the statistics and tell me I am wrong. Over 100,000 asylum seekers in last two years compared to around 70,000 work permits." That's including Ukrainians who are Europeans. There were far more Eastern Europeans living in Ireland in the latter years of the Celtic Tiger.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12799 - 04/06/2024 13:53:25
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Replying To MachaireConnacht: "Your figures are including Ukrainians who are not in the normal asylum process and do not need work permits. Ukrainians are effectively treated like temporary EU citizens. Asylum seeker numbers are about 30,000 for the period you mention. It is misleading to include Ukrainians in one set of figures and then talk about work permits which are not inclusive of Ukrainians." He's also chosen to count those coming here from the UK and EU, to work, as part of the asylum figure.
They are not.
They are people who move here but do not a work permit in order to work.
When you can't contribute to balanced debate with unbiased factual figures, that's when you start to look like the 'far right'.
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5067 - 04/06/2024 13:56:03
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Replying To Galway9801: "How are these things calculated exactly,, when you say an Irish citizen returning, could that be a foreign national with Irish citizenship returning after visiting their own country of origin for a brief time,, to see family etc.?
You could well be right but looking at the profound ethnic changes taking place on this island I find it hard to believe." The profound ethnic changes you mention depend entirely on where you are looking. In South Wexford by far and away the majority of people are "White Irish", as they are in most areas of the country. The large majority of asylum seekers are "White European". Its true the large majority of work permits are granted to Asian people. Even in rural towns the large majority of people are White Irish. There are areas of cities, Dublin especially, where this might not be the case now, but alot of those areas were crime ridden holes long before there were any immigrants there. Joyriding, drug use, drug dealing, and general anti social behaviour were rife in some of those areas like some of the estates in Blanchardstown, Tallaght etc etc. Generally I stayed away from them back then, as I still do.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12799 - 04/06/2024 14:03:40
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "We do not have a "normal asylum process" for a start. Hence the current crisis.
Secondly, most Ukrainians will stay no matter happens over there. As for work permits, for every permit holder, there are potentially any number of family dependents.
Meanwhile, large numbers of the age cohort that is vital to maintaining Irish society even in terms of births is leaving in large and increasing numbers.
If you think that is a good thing, fair enough. I happen to think that it is not." It's obviously not a good thing. But it's a related thing. The main reason cited by those moving away is the cost of housing here, both to rent and to buy. This housing shortage is what is making the immigration problem worse also. The affordable housing shortage is completely unrelated to immigration. Its a problem that's been developing here since the 1990s and is largely down to successive governments not doing what they were paid to do. Govern the place.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12799 - 04/06/2024 14:08:17
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Replying To Viking66: "The profound ethnic changes you mention depend entirely on where you are looking. In South Wexford by far and away the majority of people are "White Irish", as they are in most areas of the country. The large majority of asylum seekers are "White European". Its true the large majority of work permits are granted to Asian people. Even in rural towns the large majority of people are White Irish. There are areas of cities, Dublin especially, where this might not be the case now, but alot of those areas were crime ridden holes long before there were any immigrants there. Joyriding, drug use, drug dealing, and general anti social behaviour were rife in some of those areas like some of the estates in Blanchardstown, Tallaght etc etc. Generally I stayed away from them back then, as I still do." For sure,, I live in renmore, on the east side of the city, whereas 25 years ago the area was pretty much completely white irish,, it's about 75% now avd changing more every day, take a spin out to headford avd it's still in the high 90s,, other areas have been changed more than ballybane, other areas not at all,, galway city compared to 25 years ago is pretty much unrecognisable demographically compared to 25 years ago, with shop street etc being predominantly foreign born at times.
Anyone who says only immigrants commit crimes needs their heads examined, though I don't know anyone who says that,, however a proportion of asylum seekers are not genuine, and are here for opportunitistic reasons , and the creation of ghettos will increase crime, and will create racial tensions
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1796 - 04/06/2024 15:44:27
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Replying To Viking66: "It's obviously not a good thing. But it's a related thing. The main reason cited by those moving away is the cost of housing here, both to rent and to buy. This housing shortage is what is making the immigration problem worse also. The affordable housing shortage is completely unrelated to immigration. Its a problem that's been developing here since the 1990s and is largely down to successive governments not doing what they were paid to do. Govern the place." It's not "completely" unrelated to immigration, come on viking. An increased population puts pressure on housing, and even if the government built the requisite number of houses, by the time they've that done there'll be another 100k new arrivals landed on our shores looking for a roof over their head
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1796 - 04/06/2024 15:46:52
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Replying To Galway9801: "For sure,, I live in renmore, on the east side of the city, whereas 25 years ago the area was pretty much completely white irish,, it's about 75% now avd changing more every day, take a spin out to headford avd it's still in the high 90s,, other areas have been changed more than ballybane, other areas not at all,, galway city compared to 25 years ago is pretty much unrecognisable demographically compared to 25 years ago, with shop street etc being predominantly foreign born at times.
Anyone who says only immigrants commit crimes needs their heads examined, though I don't know anyone who says that,, however a proportion of asylum seekers are not genuine, and are here for opportunitistic reasons , and the creation of ghettos will increase crime, and will create racial tensions" True Galway 9801.
thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1786 - 04/06/2024 20:33:41
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Replying To Galway9801: "It's not "completely" unrelated to immigration, come on viking. An increased population puts pressure on housing, and even if the government built the requisite number of houses, by the time they've that done there'll be another 100k new arrivals landed on our shores looking for a roof over their head" Ok then not completely unrelated to immigration, but the 2nd half of your post hits the nail on the head. If the current or future governments only build the current "requisite number of houses" then they will have failed also, just not as badly as the previous 30 years of governments. The government keep crowing about the economic growth the country has experienced since the 1990s, but for that to be sustained population has to increase, as does infrastructure. Any small boy of my generation knew that as your collection of marbles grew, so you had to get a bigger bag to keep them in. It really isn't rocket science.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12799 - 04/06/2024 21:47:04
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Replying To Viking66: "Ok then not completely unrelated to immigration, but the 2nd half of your post hits the nail on the head. If the current or future governments only build the current "requisite number of houses" then they will have failed also, just not as badly as the previous 30 years of governments. The government keep crowing about the economic growth the country has experienced since the 1990s, but for that to be sustained population has to increase, as does infrastructure. Any small boy of my generation knew that as your collection of marbles grew, so you had to get a bigger bag to keep them in. It really isn't rocket science." So going by your bag of marbles analogy,, we're effectively trapped in a never ending cycle of mass migration in order to keep growing our collection of marbles?
Hmmmmm,, why does that not make me feel any better about what's coming viking?
Besides, who gets to play with these marbles? Will the bigger economy lead to more wealth being transferred to citizens? Bigger houses, cars, better working conditions, improved social cohesion, an all round improved quality of life? Somehow I doubt it.
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1796 - 05/06/2024 08:09:45
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Replying To zinny: "Yes and Google also feeds you information based on what you have used it to search in the past and if conspiracy theories are on your agenda then you will get them - it doesn't mean it's fact. The only reference I could find was back in 2009 when the anti Lisbon treaty groups claimed at 80% of the laws came from the EU - fact it was 29.9%.
So post a "fact" without ever having to substantiate it - very Vote Leave of you. Keeping good bedfellows with your thinking there. You clearly have no idea about the countries that you admire. The odd one out is Norway.
Three of the most xenophobic countries in Asia but that would suit you wouldn't it. One has never saw fit to admit to its war crimes and still remains one of the most disliked countries in Asia in those old enough to remember what they did. Another that is an island made up now almost entirely of colonisers who in the process treated the natives no better than any western colonisers. Another one that has the highest rate of suicide in the developed world - in the aged this is due to poverty and isolation, suicide is the single biggest cause if death in adolescents and if you ever spoke to someonewho lived there you woukd understand why. I am not sure if you have ever followed the business news out of any of these countries, they may have domestic companies however they have also had major issues with corruption, historic ties to dictatorships and are no better that any US company in the way they use their power to loby the government to protect their interests.
By the way while Norway is a great society and very welcoming of refugees and immigrants, while they push a environmentally friendly agenda 25% of their economy comes from oil.
I will grant you one thing the alternative was worse however the belief that communists were all the same led the the disaster that was Vietnam." You are not very efficient at using Google if you could not find the reference to 70% of Irish legislation originating in EU.
Here's a clue: Seán Kelly. He's an MEP (you can Google that too) and former Uachtarán CLG (that's GAA in English.)
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2835 - 05/06/2024 08:31:32
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Replying To cavanman47: "He's also chosen to count those coming here from the UK and EU, to work, as part of the asylum figure.
They are not.
They are people who move here but do not a work permit in order to work.
When you can't contribute to balanced debate with unbiased factual figures, that's when you start to look like the 'far right'." I am not including people on work permits as refugees!
Is this the level of "debate" that people like yourself are reduced to? Find out what you are talking about before engaging in childish insults.
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2835 - 05/06/2024 08:34:36
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Replying To Viking66: "Ok then not completely unrelated to immigration, but the 2nd half of your post hits the nail on the head. If the current or future governments only build the current "requisite number of houses" then they will have failed also, just not as badly as the previous 30 years of governments. The government keep crowing about the economic growth the country has experienced since the 1990s, but for that to be sustained population has to increase, as does infrastructure. Any small boy of my generation knew that as your collection of marbles grew, so you had to get a bigger bag to keep them in. It really isn't rocket science." It's not rocket science to think that the 'requisite' number of houses need to be new builds. Keeping the banks/developers/builders happy with greentech addons and BER regulations required to screw potential homeowners. Plenty of decent quality used houses and very little incentive for potential buyers. Government only concerned with VAT and keeping the employment figures look good to maintain the middle class vote.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7441 - 05/06/2024 09:31:42
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Replying To Galway9801: "So going by your bag of marbles analogy,, we're effectively trapped in a never ending cycle of mass migration in order to keep growing our collection of marbles?
Hmmmmm,, why does that not make me feel any better about what's coming viking?
Besides, who gets to play with these marbles? Will the bigger economy lead to more wealth being transferred to citizens? Bigger houses, cars, better working conditions, improved social cohesion, an all round improved quality of life? Somehow I doubt it." Sadly we have one of the worst Gini coefficients in the world. Wealth distribution is another reflection on our government.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12799 - 05/06/2024 09:37:55
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "I am not including people on work permits as refugees!
Is this the level of "debate" that people like yourself are reduced to? Find out what you are talking about before engaging in childish insults." Take a sup of your own medicine there lad. .
I didn't say that you were counting those on work permits as refugees.
I said that you were counting the likes of those coming from the UK and other EU countries (who can work without a work permit) as refugees.
You gave a figure for the total number coming here.
You subtracted the figure for those gaining work permits.
And you came to your final figure.
You have not included those who come to work who do not need work permits.
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5067 - 05/06/2024 10:20:18
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Replying To Galway9801: "So going by your bag of marbles analogy,, we're effectively trapped in a never ending cycle of mass migration in order to keep growing our collection of marbles?
Hmmmmm,, why does that not make me feel any better about what's coming viking?
Besides, who gets to play with these marbles? Will the bigger economy lead to more wealth being transferred to citizens? Bigger houses, cars, better working conditions, improved social cohesion, an all round improved quality of life? Somehow I doubt it." Well the quality of our houses, cars, lives, health service, roads, infrastructure, etc etc. have all improved substantially over the last 3-4 decades, so the evidence suggests they will indeed continue to do so.
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5067 - 05/06/2024 10:28:18
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"He's also chosen to count those coming here from the UK and EU, to work, as part of the asylum figure."
That's what you said.
I know the figures, you either do not, or choose to ignore them.
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2835 - 05/06/2024 10:32:51
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "You are not very efficient at using Google if you could not find the reference to 70% of Irish legislation originating in EU.
Here's a clue: Seán Kelly. He's an MEP (you can Google that too) and former Uachtarán CLG (that's GAA in English.)" Tbh if you look at our legislation most of our laws predate 1920 and are British laws.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12799 - 05/06/2024 10:36:48
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Replying To GreenandRed: "It's not rocket science to think that the 'requisite' number of houses need to be new builds. Keeping the banks/developers/builders happy with greentech addons and BER regulations required to screw potential homeowners. Plenty of decent quality used houses and very little incentive for potential buyers. Government only concerned with VAT and keeping the employment figures look good to maintain the middle class vote." We have a huge backlog of housing that needed to be built since the 90s that still hasn't been built. And if our population increase isn't factored into any housing plan then by the time those are built there still won't be enough.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12799 - 05/06/2024 10:38:57
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "They are indeed. Again, look at the statistics and tell me I am wrong. Over 100,000 asylum seekers in last two years compared to around 70,000 work permits." Barney you are speaking half truths. Much like your debate with me on the death of the Irish language, you are not fully informed. Nowhere near it.
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7929 - 05/06/2024 10:52:34
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Replying To Viking66: "We have a huge backlog of housing that needed to be built since the 90s that still hasn't been built. And if our population increase isn't factored into any housing plan then by the time those are built there still won't be enough." True but not every prospective buyer needs a new high spec'd home. A second hand home could help them on the property ladder given the right incentives.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7441 - 05/06/2024 11:00:58
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