National Forum

Penalties

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Replying To CastleBravo:  "Some posters must have short memories. They tried free kicks/45s for a while and it was terrible. Shootouts regularly finished 1-0 or 2-1 after multiple kicks."
My memory must be short!!

5 penalties each as you know and then sudden death.
How did the 45s go.
I just can't comprend how 5 45s each and then sudden death would not finish quick.

Right. If it went to 15 each sudden death 45s.
Statistically how many teams will scores 5 regular and 15 sudden death 45s 100 %.
Don't know if you concur.

At least it would take the pot luck out of it.

leitrimforsam (Leitrim) - Posts: 85 - 07/06/2022 14:31:49    2423053

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Leitrim v Sligo was NOT the 1st competitive match to go to penalties.
It wasn't the first Inter County SFC game to go to penalties either, Clare v Limerick was."
I never said Leitrim v Sligo was first competitive game that went to penalties.
I never said it was it was the first SFC game to go to penalties.
But Leitrim V Mayo in the FBD league in Carrick on Shannon in 2018 WAS the first competitive intercounty game to go to penalties.
Please fact check

leitrimforsam (Leitrim) - Posts: 85 - 07/06/2022 14:34:57    2423054

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No fan of penalty shoot outs in soccer and I'm less of fan of bringing their way to decide games in GAA matches.

The_analyser (Roscommon) - Posts: 4043 - 07/06/2022 14:45:33    2423059

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It will never go to 45's as teams would struggle to get 5 to 6 players to strike a 45 off the ground & score, especially after an exhausting period of extra time. Goalkeepers have become specialists at them but some lads aren't able to score from 30 metres, out of their hands, let alone kick a dead ball from 45 metres.

moc.dna (Galway) - Posts: 1212 - 07/06/2022 15:17:30    2423085

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Replying To moc.dna:  "It will never go to 45's as teams would struggle to get 5 to 6 players to strike a 45 off the ground & score, especially after an exhausting period of extra time. Goalkeepers have become specialists at them but some lads aren't able to score from 30 metres, out of their hands, let alone kick a dead ball from 45 metres."
Agreed that 45s would be far worse. Almost every player who's kicked a ball has taken a penalty at some stage, either in training or messing about.
A large chunk will have never kicked a 45. It's a far more difficult skill and requires years of practice from a young age.
On kicking from the hands, I would disagree. Far more players can kick points from distance now than could in the past. Players are much better with their weaker foot now also than 20 years ago and prior. While the general spectacle has deteriorated in the era of safety first possession football, point kicking has improved significantly.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2321 - 07/06/2022 16:11:11    2423124

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Replying To moc.dna:  "It will never go to 45's as teams would struggle to get 5 to 6 players to strike a 45 off the ground & score, especially after an exhausting period of extra time. Goalkeepers have become specialists at them but some lads aren't able to score from 30 metres, out of their hands, let alone kick a dead ball from 45 metres."
The art of a place kicker off the ground seems to have died the last decade. Most look to their goalkeepers now and most aren't very good at it either

The_analyser (Roscommon) - Posts: 4043 - 07/06/2022 16:46:24    2423140

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Leitrim v Sligo was NOT the 1st competitive match to go to penalties.
It wasn't the first Inter County SFC game to go to penalties either, Clare v Limerick was."
No it was not limerick v clare. It was leitrim v mayo in an fbd league in carrick on shannon.

howdareu (USA) - Posts: 220 - 07/06/2022 17:51:37    2423158

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "Agreed that 45s would be far worse. Almost every player who's kicked a ball has taken a penalty at some stage, either in training or messing about.
A large chunk will have never kicked a 45. It's a far more difficult skill and requires years of practice from a young age.
On kicking from the hands, I would disagree. Far more players can kick points from distance now than could in the past. Players are much better with their weaker foot now also than 20 years ago and prior. While the general spectacle has deteriorated in the era of safety first possession football, point kicking has improved significantly."
Not sure on whether there are stats that would show that points scored from the hand have improved or not, possibly.
Certainly the improvement in footwear/boots & a much lighter ball, regular sized ball (rather than the pig bladder skin ball) has probably helped, similar to the sliotar in hurling.
There was one point kicked off the left this w'end not sure was it one of the Tailteann cup or Qualifier games that was a monster score (so many games can't recall who)
Armagh's long distance point scoring over the last 3 years has been a joy to watch & one way of defeating blanket defences, probably the best county team at it.

moc.dna (Galway) - Posts: 1212 - 07/06/2022 18:41:56    2423185

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "You'd rather those options than penalties, where at least you have 5 goes between kicking and saving to make a difference? No harm, they're madcap solutions..."
Not much more mad cap than a penalty shoot out when you think about it. The penalty kick off the ground is not one of the core skills you think about when you think of GAA.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 439 - 07/06/2022 19:24:35    2423194

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Replying To eoinog:  "And what do you suggest if there's a gale blowing. The team who plays with it, surely wins. Your idea of backs v Forwards is so off the wall that I can't think of a reply"
In fairness at least he is trying to come up with something original. It always kind of annoys me the way we always try to ape soccer (even though I really like watching soccer I think we should be confident enough to do things which suit our own games).
I remember when Cody gave out about the introduction of yellow/ red cards people failed to see the main point he was making, when yellow cards were introduced referees seemed to give them out for nothing compared to what used to happen before with bookings as this is what we were used to seeing in soccer.
Same as people try to convince themselves that modern packed defensive style in football has somehow made the game more interesting like soccer as now tactics are involved despite the fact that it goes against the character of what the game was always about and in some games has nearly eliminated many of the main skills of the game. Same as we made penalties easier by making it the same distance from the goal like soccer (lot of penalties actually are given for fairly minor fouls, should it be automatically be very easy to score a goal from them?).
Sometimes it feels like we have an inferiority complex the way we constantly bring elements of soccer into Gaelic football.

GreenMan1987 (Meath) - Posts: 71 - 07/06/2022 21:47:16    2423221

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Replying To GreenMan1987:  "In fairness at least he is trying to come up with something original. It always kind of annoys me the way we always try to ape soccer (even though I really like watching soccer I think we should be confident enough to do things which suit our own games).
I remember when Cody gave out about the introduction of yellow/ red cards people failed to see the main point he was making, when yellow cards were introduced referees seemed to give them out for nothing compared to what used to happen before with bookings as this is what we were used to seeing in soccer.
Same as people try to convince themselves that modern packed defensive style in football has somehow made the game more interesting like soccer as now tactics are involved despite the fact that it goes against the character of what the game was always about and in some games has nearly eliminated many of the main skills of the game. Same as we made penalties easier by making it the same distance from the goal like soccer (lot of penalties actually are given for fairly minor fouls, should it be automatically be very easy to score a goal from them?).
Sometimes it feels like we have an inferiority complex the way we constantly bring elements of soccer into Gaelic football."
I'd agree that we often try to ape soccer and other sports. Lets not forgot that soccer bodies have been trying to figure out a different way of settling a match as the winner of the toss in a penalty shoot out to go first is statistically shown to win over 60% of the time. That's probably even better than a gale behind you.

The packed defensive style of football has made some games overly tactical. Teams are using basketball tactics to hold the ball in tight spaces. Without the backcourt rule and a shot clock (as in basketball) teams can hold the ball indefinitely unless the opposition come out and leave space behind them. I would say a version of the backcourt rule could eliminate a lot of this a leave the best of both worlds.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 439 - 08/06/2022 10:49:20    2423284

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If the GAA are going to persist with ending games on the day then if the game finishes a draw after extra time why don't they play a further 10 minutes and do a golden point in which the first score wins. If it's still a draw after that then go to penalties.

PK57 (Louth) - Posts: 1661 - 08/06/2022 19:42:51    2423460

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Here's a mental idea. Play sudden death into the one end. Ref throws the ball up at the halfway line, and whoever wins the ball and brings it across the 45 is the attacking team and can score. The defending team can only become the attacking team if they win possession and move the ball back beyond the 45, whereupon they can play it back in again and go on the attack. I haven't really thought it through, I was basing it on what we did with basketball when I was in school, sometimes we'd play into one end a and on a turnover you'd have to pass it to halfway. Also what would you do with goalies/backs/forwards, would you be swapping them in NFL-style? But it's a start, albeit a mental one.

Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1174 - 08/06/2022 21:59:34    2423482

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2023 will see 19 rounds of National Football League and All-Ireland Football Championship played out over 26 weeks! There has got to be a winner on the day.
Looking at the potential 2023 schedule in this 2022 year:
The first 4 rounds of the league will have to be on consecutive weekends e.g. Jan 30, Feb 06, Feb 13 and Feb 20.
After a rest week, the final 3 rounds of the league and the final will have to be played out on consecutive weekends e.g. Mar 06, Mar 13, Mar 20 and Mar 27.
The provincial championships are going to be played over 5 weekends e.g. Apr 10 to May 08.

Potential All-Ireland Championship scheduling:
May 21/22, Group stage Round 1.
May 28/29, Group stage Round 2.

Jun 11/12, Group stage Round 3.
Jun 18/19, Preliminary Quarter-finals.
Jun 25/26, Quarter-finals.

Jul 09/10, Semi-finals.

Jul 24, Final.

For such a schedule in 26 weeks, penalties are required to assist determining a winner on the day.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8788 - 09/06/2022 08:35:28    2423489

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Replying To brianb:  "Not much more mad cap than a penalty shoot out when you think about it. The penalty kick off the ground is not one of the core skills you think about when you think of GAA."
You think penalties are about as madcap as a game of backs and forwards? Come off it

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2466 - 09/06/2022 09:36:03    2423505

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Replying To Tacaí Liatroma:  "Here's a mental idea. Play sudden death into the one end. Ref throws the ball up at the halfway line, and whoever wins the ball and brings it across the 45 is the attacking team and can score. The defending team can only become the attacking team if they win possession and move the ball back beyond the 45, whereupon they can play it back in again and go on the attack. I haven't really thought it through, I was basing it on what we did with basketball when I was in school, sometimes we'd play into one end a and on a turnover you'd have to pass it to halfway. Also what would you do with goalies/backs/forwards, would you be swapping them in NFL-style? But it's a start, albeit a mental one."
You are 100% correct. It's mental

eoinog (Sligo) - Posts: 2100 - 09/06/2022 09:49:36    2423507

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "You think penalties are about as madcap as a game of backs and forwards? Come off it"
Think about it - would you rather a game decided by a few badly taken penalties or a well played ball to a corner forward who creates a yard of space and points from a tight angle? I'd prefer a next score wins scenario.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 439 - 09/06/2022 10:39:23    2423533

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There is something to be said for a 'Golden Score' idea. At end of extra time, flip around and start again and first to score wins. That way there is more of the core GAA skills involved in whatever happens to secure the winning score. Defenders have to defend for their lives, forwards have to have a go. It is very unlikely to go on for longer than the penalties do.

LongfordgaaAbú (Longford) - Posts: 612 - 09/06/2022 12:41:51    2423572

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Replying To brianb:  "Think about it - would you rather a game decided by a few badly taken penalties or a well played ball to a corner forward who creates a yard of space and points from a tight angle? I'd prefer a next score wins scenario."
I'd far rather penalties. 5 goes for a taker to score it, 5 goes for a keeper to save it. Next score wins? What if it is a wide ball given as a point and there's no hawkeye? Goal like Leitrim got, but ruled out for a square ball that never was? Ref calls a free close in that replays show was a dive? Next score wins is what you do to finish off a match at the end of training. Penalties gives opportunities to many players to decide the game result. It is far more fairer overall and gives far less leeway for problems than your solution.

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2466 - 09/06/2022 12:49:40    2423574

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "I'd far rather penalties. 5 goes for a taker to score it, 5 goes for a keeper to save it. Next score wins? What if it is a wide ball given as a point and there's no hawkeye? Goal like Leitrim got, but ruled out for a square ball that never was? Ref calls a free close in that replays show was a dive? Next score wins is what you do to finish off a match at the end of training. Penalties gives opportunities to many players to decide the game result. It is far more fairer overall and gives far less leeway for problems than your solution."
Its interesting that all the points against it are due to poor refereeing decisions. All would be similar arguments against a 75th minute score deciding a match. But you are right - the GAA being the GAA you would immediately have a contentious decision. These will still happen anyway - they've happened already this year and there will be plenty more.

I'd prefer to have it settled on the pitch somehow rather than resorting to penalties. I like the idea put forward a while back for soccer where the penalties would precede extra time so teams would know who's winning in the event of a further draw. I don't know how that would work in practice so I'd keep coming back to a Golden score solution like in NFL. If you score a point - the other team gets a kick out to try and score a goal - if you score a goal you win.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 439 - 09/06/2022 13:50:24    2423588

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