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Most observers have been lauding the McDonagh Cup competition structure providing good even games overall for many counties spread all over the island.
It gives both finalists another match after the final and brings one up for the following year as well.
So far, it has provided us with different winners each year and it has in my view given teams something really worthwhile aiming for with the final in Croke Park which adds to its status.
Personally I would not like to see its status being undermined by having a bigger Leinster Senior Championship where we would have more lopsided matches which would not be good for any team.
The McDonagh Cup is working and so in my view should be left alone.
Perhaps as many have commented, it should get more TV coverage and share the stage with one other senior match on the day and not be left to a 2 min slot on Sunday night with panellists struggling to say something novel that is not also seen as condesceding!
If the Tailteann Cuo learned from the McDonagh and gave teams more games it might prove its worth in a few years time as well unlike at the moment where it's knockout.
carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1821 - 24/05/2022 12:36:46
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We all know that there are only 8 teams at the top level.
The current structure has been devised to keep the Munster championship 5 teams protected no matter what. If it was fair then Tipp would be relegated if Kerry get promotion- without a play off - just like the Leinster championship
Leaving the sacred cows to oneside and if hurling was serious about developing other counties they would tier it that way
Top tier of 10 with draw seeded based on league performance
Top 8 into Q finals and bottom 2 teams get relegated
Joe McDonagh - next 8 - two groups of 4 - top 2 get promoted and bottom 2 relegated
Christy Ring - next 8
Nicky Rackard - next 8
Try the be told - the same structure is required for football too
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1129 - 24/05/2022 15:44:26
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "We all know that there are only 8 teams at the top level.
The current structure has been devised to keep the Munster championship 5 teams protected no matter what. If it was fair then Tipp would be relegated if Kerry get promotion- without a play off - just like the Leinster championship
Leaving the sacred cows to oneside and if hurling was serious about developing other counties they would tier it that way
Top tier of 10 with draw seeded based on league performance
Top 8 into Q finals and bottom 2 teams get relegated
Joe McDonagh - next 8 - two groups of 4 - top 2 get promoted and bottom 2 relegated
Christy Ring - next 8
Nicky Rackard - next 8
Try the be told - the same structure is required for football too" It suits the select few to keep the as-is.
It doesn't suit any county trying to grow the game.
ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1138 - 24/05/2022 16:08:15
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What's the problem with the current system? Against all odds a system has been found that works for everyone, and it definitely does.
The Joe McDonagh Cup is a great tournament bit it needs to be given time to build up a history and a tradition, we're far to quick in the GAA to tear new systems down (and too slow to tear other systems down, it's mad). Adding teams to Leinster as soon as they're anyway competitive is just ruining the Joe Mcdonagh when in reality we should be building it up to the point where its not that much behind liam mccarthy. Where every year there's at least one qualifier that's not a foregone conclusion and the current system is the best way to do this.
In 3 years of this system we've had laois make a q final and westmeath draw last week, as well as laois be very competitive in some games, now they go down and the Mcdonagh cup teams can measure themselves against that, what if lapis win it and face Dublin next year?they'll fancy their chances.
Division 1 is expanded in the league which gives plenty of teams exposure to playing the best. We had 100 years of teams trying to compete in the provinces and getting nowhere.
The ultimate test will come when a munster team or one of the big 4 in leinster go down, (Which will happen sooner than you think) will the GAA bottle it and change the system?
A few more wins by Joe McDonagh teams in the qualifiers in the next few years and maybe down the line a run by someone to a semi final would make a serious job of it.
The glaring issue is kerry but common sense will prevail and it will be tweaked to have only 1 province with 6 teams each year. Kerry up and into Munster and Laois down. Tough on Kerry yes but that's just geographical misfortune, like what Tipp, Cork, Clare, Limerick and waterford face in football
Gforce20017 (Galway) - Posts: 8 - 24/05/2022 21:26:47
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Replying To legendzxix: "Agreed. I put it out there for discussion more than anything. As only 6 teams can qualify for Munster, I was just musing over the merits of an expanded Leinster.
In an 8 team Leinster:
1. The top 4 after 4 games can enter Leinster semi-finals.
2. The bottom 4 after 4 games can enter Leinster relegation semi-finals.
3. The semi-final losers and relegation semi-final winners could play-off, where the 2 winners play each other in the All-Ireland Preliminary Quarter-final.
McDonagh 5 or 6 teams:
1. If a Munster team wins the McDonagh, the Munster Championship can have 6 teams in the following year, with the McDonagh reducing to 5 teams.
2. If a Leinster team win the McDonagh, they should be promoted in place of the Leinster relegation final loser.
3. If a Leinster team is runner-up to a Munster team, they should playoff against the Leinster relegation final loser. (The Leinster Relegation Final loser can have home advantage.)
4. Only the McDonagh winner should qualify for the All-Ireland Preliminary Quarter-final, where they can have home advantage versus 3rd from Munster.
Again, I'm not pressing for change. I'm just musing over possible tweaks for consideration." Just continue as is but move to a seeded draw and have 2 open groups where teams from Munster and Leinster can meet in a round robin and abolish the Munster and Leinster championships or run them as a side competition. There seems to be some fethish among Munster teams that the Munster championship is infallible and can't be touched. If they're not going to allow Kerry to promote direct if they win the Joe Mc then it's just reinforcing the idea all hurling teams are equal but some teams are more 'equal' than others. We had this rigamarole with the league's for years because teams were too 'good' to be relegated. Offaly simply weren't good enough to reach the Joe MC final. Tipp lost all their games this year by an average of about 8 points overall. It's arguable it was against higher quality opposition, but the fact remains they won zilch this year just like Laois. Seeing though as some GAA administrators still live in 1884 and change in the mindset of the GAA happens at glacial speed, then at worst right now, if things were fair Kerry would be promoted automatically should they win against Antrim and it should be Tipp and Laois battling for survival. Bring rewarded for being rubbish and disincentivising other team's successes does nobody any favours
RadioactiveTan (UK) - Posts: 28 - 25/05/2022 09:14:58
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Replying To ExiledInWex: "It suits the select few to keep the as-is.
It doesn't suit any county trying to grow the game." I think I,ts better for countries growing the fame to have trophies they can realistically win. The system as is is actually alot better than I thought it would be. The only anomaly that needs sorting out is that Kerry should be automatically promoted if they qin the Joe Mac and the bottom team in Munster automatically relegated. If that had of been the case we wouldn't have had the farve that was the last day of the Munster Championship where 2 teams, Tipp and Waterford, very obviously couldn't care less if they won or lost safe in the knowledge that there is no penalty for finishing last.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12053 - 25/05/2022 09:41:47
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Replying To RadioactiveTan: "Just continue as is but move to a seeded draw and have 2 open groups where teams from Munster and Leinster can meet in a round robin and abolish the Munster and Leinster championships or run them as a side competition. There seems to be some fethish among Munster teams that the Munster championship is infallible and can't be touched. If they're not going to allow Kerry to promote direct if they win the Joe Mc then it's just reinforcing the idea all hurling teams are equal but some teams are more 'equal' than others. We had this rigamarole with the league's for years because teams were too 'good' to be relegated. Offaly simply weren't good enough to reach the Joe MC final. Tipp lost all their games this year by an average of about 8 points overall. It's arguable it was against higher quality opposition, but the fact remains they won zilch this year just like Laois. Seeing though as some GAA administrators still live in 1884 and change in the mindset of the GAA happens at glacial speed, then at worst right now, if things were fair Kerry would be promoted automatically should they win against Antrim and it should be Tipp and Laois battling for survival. Bring rewarded for being rubbish and disincentivising other team's successes does nobody any favours" The Munster and Leinster Championships are very important to fans and players. Winning 1 is a big deal. They shouldn't be run as a side competition.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12053 - 25/05/2022 09:43:47
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It would be harsh to relegate the 5th placed team in Munster. If Kerry are good enough some year to win the McDonagh, they should be promoted as the 6th team in Munster. After a year in Munster, whoever finishes 6th should be relegated.
If Kerry are relegated after a year in Munster because we finish 6th, we will fully accept it and so should any county.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 25/05/2022 09:58:32
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Replying To Gforce20017: "What's the problem with the current system? Against all odds a system has been found that works for everyone, and it definitely does.
The Joe McDonagh Cup is a great tournament bit it needs to be given time to build up a history and a tradition, we're far to quick in the GAA to tear new systems down (and too slow to tear other systems down, it's mad). Adding teams to Leinster as soon as they're anyway competitive is just ruining the Joe Mcdonagh when in reality we should be building it up to the point where its not that much behind liam mccarthy. Where every year there's at least one qualifier that's not a foregone conclusion and the current system is the best way to do this.
In 3 years of this system we've had laois make a q final and westmeath draw last week, as well as laois be very competitive in some games, now they go down and the Mcdonagh cup teams can measure themselves against that, what if lapis win it and face Dublin next year?they'll fancy their chances.
Division 1 is expanded in the league which gives plenty of teams exposure to playing the best. We had 100 years of teams trying to compete in the provinces and getting nowhere.
The ultimate test will come when a munster team or one of the big 4 in leinster go down, (Which will happen sooner than you think) will the GAA bottle it and change the system?
A few more wins by Joe McDonagh teams in the qualifiers in the next few years and maybe down the line a run by someone to a semi final would make a serious job of it.
The glaring issue is kerry but common sense will prevail and it will be tweaked to have only 1 province with 6 teams each year. Kerry up and into Munster and Laois down. Tough on Kerry yes but that's just geographical misfortune, like what Tipp, Cork, Clare, Limerick and waterford face in football" Works for everyone except Kerry
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 25/05/2022 10:02:10
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Replying To Whammo86: "Works for everyone except Kerry" How does it not work for Kerry? It's tough for them. Grand. Come back with a perfect system that'll have all 32 counties at the same level in 20 years time.
Kerry now are in a competitive division, they'll be in the all ireland qualifiers because they've earned it and they'll have a cut at wexford. if they win the final they should be promoted into a 6 team Munster. Then they'll be in a tougher division. They'll probably be relegated, that's life
Gforce20017 (Galway) - Posts: 8 - 25/05/2022 11:01:16
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Replying To Gforce20017: "How does it not work for Kerry? It's tough for them. Grand. Come back with a perfect system that'll have all 32 counties at the same level in 20 years time.
Kerry now are in a competitive division, they'll be in the all ireland qualifiers because they've earned it and they'll have a cut at wexford. if they win the final they should be promoted into a 6 team Munster. Then they'll be in a tougher division. They'll probably be relegated, that's life" Unfortunately thats not the case.
If Kerry win then they play Tipp in a relegation match.
They should go into Leinster.
carlovia (None) - Posts: 1517 - 25/05/2022 11:22:40
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Replying To Gforce20017: "How does it not work for Kerry? It's tough for them. Grand. Come back with a perfect system that'll have all 32 counties at the same level in 20 years time.
Kerry now are in a competitive division, they'll be in the all ireland qualifiers because they've earned it and they'll have a cut at wexford. if they win the final they should be promoted into a 6 team Munster. Then they'll be in a tougher division. They'll probably be relegated, that's life" If Kerry win the McDonagh, they should be promoted as the 6th team in Munster. Whoever finishes 6th then in a 6 team Munster championship should be relegated.
There are 2 ways to achieve this:
1. The province with a 6th team is determined by the McDonagh winner.
OR
2. If Kerry win the McDonagh, the McDonagh reduces to 5 and Munster expands to 6. The teams finishing 6th in both provinces in the following year however would both have to be relegated.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 25/05/2022 11:28:12
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Replying To legendzxix: "It would be harsh to relegate the 5th placed team in Munster. If Kerry are good enough some year to win the McDonagh, they should be promoted as the 6th team in Munster. After a year in Munster, whoever finishes 6th should be relegated.
If Kerry are relegated after a year in Munster because we finish 6th, we will fully accept it and so should any county." If there is no relegation from Munster then farcical games like Sundays will continue . They were like 2 challenge matches. Even the pundits on Dalys Podcast, who are all proud Munster men, made the point that neither of the 2 games Sunday were played at anything like the intensity in Nowlan Park.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12053 - 25/05/2022 12:19:03
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Replying To Viking66: "If there is no relegation from Munster then farcical games like Sundays will continue . They were like 2 challenge matches. Even the pundits on Dalys Podcast, who are all proud Munster men, made the point that neither of the 2 games Sunday were played at anything like the intensity in Nowlan Park." That had nothing to do with there being no relegation and everything to do with Waterfors and Tipp being s****. They both had plenty to play for so to say the threat of relegation would have made them play better is nonsense
Gforce20017 (Galway) - Posts: 8 - 25/05/2022 13:39:26
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Replying To carlovia: "Unfortunately thats not the case.
If Kerry win then they play Tipp in a relegation match.
They should go into Leinster." That's why I said should. It's the only problem with an otherwise great system
Gforce20017 (Galway) - Posts: 8 - 25/05/2022 13:40:14
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Replying To Viking66: "If there is no relegation from Munster then farcical games like Sundays will continue . They were like 2 challenge matches. Even the pundits on Dalys Podcast, who are all proud Munster men, made the point that neither of the 2 games Sunday were played at anything like the intensity in Nowlan Park." This is why it should be a nationally organised championship.
Incorporate provincials if you have to but the current system is a fudge that worked well to begin with but is far from bullet proof.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 25/05/2022 13:40:39
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Replying To Gforce20017: "That had nothing to do with there being no relegation and everything to do with Waterfors and Tipp being s****. They both had plenty to play for so to say the threat of relegation would have made them play better is nonsense" Have you ever played sport before?
The threat of losing your status is an indescribable motivator
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2697 - 25/05/2022 13:51:05
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Replying To carlovia: "Unfortunately thats not the case.
If Kerry win then they play Tipp in a relegation match.
They should go into Leinster." If Kerry manage to beat Antrim in the final, I honestly think that is the only viable solution.
Kerry have beaten Westmeath plenty of times before and could possibly catch a Dublin/Wexford on an off day.
They wouldn't win a match in Munster.
Past hurler (None) - Posts: 736 - 25/05/2022 14:04:11
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Replying To Gforce20017: "That had nothing to do with there being no relegation and everything to do with Waterfors and Tipp being s****. They both had plenty to play for so to say the threat of relegation would have made them play better is nonsense" If they played like that under the threat of relegation they would deserve to be relegated.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12053 - 25/05/2022 14:23:13
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Replying To Viking66: "If there is no relegation from Munster then farcical games like Sundays will continue . They were like 2 challenge matches. Even the pundits on Dalys Podcast, who are all proud Munster men, made the point that neither of the 2 games Sunday were played at anything like the intensity in Nowlan Park." I'm advocating the McDonagh winner determining which province has 6 teams. If Kerry were promoted to Munster, whoever finishes 6th would have to be relegated.
All provinces are treated the same in that the Top 5 in each retain their status. The McDonagh winner would be like a floating voter. If Kerry win the McDonagh, Munster has 6 teams for a year. If any other county wins the McDonagh, it is Leinster that has 6 teams.
The McDonagh winner determining the province with 6 teams is the fairest solution under the current structure.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 25/05/2022 14:40:14
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