National Forum

Tailteann Cup 2022

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Replying To legendzxix:  "I would disagree. Cavan and Sligo both made the Tailteann semi-finals on merit. The top half of Division 4 have shown they are well capable of challenging for the Tailteann."
Yeah I disagree also.

I really think you want as few tiers as possible.

Just having 2 tiers makes there be a qualifying standard which means there's an opportunity for more meaningful games.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4217 - 21/06/2022 15:53:52    2426688

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "Not contradicting myself at all. I've been clear from the start, that linking league to Championship is not the way to do it. What I have given though, is what I would see the better way. And I've also given a suggestion of how to link it better, if that's the way they're going to go (which looks like they are). It's possible to hold 2 opinions on 2 different scenarios, and that's not being contradictory. I've been consistent in what I'm saying.

And yes, I agree with most of what you say. But I'd go further. I'd run the league as is, and let it be the secondary competition where you can try things. Then promote the 2 Tailteann finalists, and have playoffs between the 4 Round 1 Qualifier losers and relegate the 2 losers of that. You therefore reward good Championship form, and relegate on poor form. As it should be. Every Championship in the country is based on how you did in the previous years Championship. Why all of a sudden so we do differently to the biggest Championship of them all? League is secondary"
Have to agree. I didnt realise the double standard until you pointed it out. Croke Park came the heavy hand with counties forcing them to impose relegation based on championship. Im not saying thats right or wrong. But the double standards is galling that now they are linking IC championship to league. I long for the day that the GAA is ran by people with a combination of brains and integrity. Wishful thinking.

anotheralias (Galway) - Posts: 840 - 21/06/2022 16:28:02    2426698

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Replying To crafty:  "Cavan are a class above Westmeath at their best and should win this fairly easily. Cavan have the physicality to deal with Westmeath."
Cavan and Westmeath are two evenly matched sides and that includes physicality.

In the years ahead both are capable of gaining promotion back to Division 1 but will likely struggle to stay up. Div 2 is probably their level and I'd say both will be 1st and 2nd in Div 3 next year.

Gaa_lover (USA) - Posts: 3346 - 21/06/2022 17:17:01    2426709

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Yeah I disagree also.

I really think you want as few tiers as possible.

Just having 2 tiers makes there be a qualifying standard which means there's an opportunity for more meaningful games."
agreed. technically there is the AI junior competition for KK and the UK teams but relegating a team down there would be some kick in the crown jewels.

gaelsboy (Leitrim) - Posts: 458 - 21/06/2022 17:19:28    2426710

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Replying To The_Fonz:  "How are they a class above, when they are were a division below??"
If you're going by League only, then you'd be right. But it's not League only. Very different come Championship. Last 5 years, only Donegal, Dublin, and Tyrone have beaten Cavan in Championship. Recent provincial winners too. Their ranking in Championship is very high. Do you really think they're a Div 4 level team in Championship?

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2382 - 21/06/2022 18:11:48    2426718

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Yeah I disagree also.

I really think you want as few tiers as possible.

Just having 2 tiers makes there be a qualifying standard which means there's an opportunity for more meaningful games."
Three tiers would be a disaster.

The reason the Tommy Murphy cup failed was because the
Division 4 teams were tired of playing each other.

Two tiers is fine and so far I've been impressed with how serious counties have taken it.

carlovia (None) - Posts: 1517 - 21/06/2022 19:17:39    2426726

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "Not contradicting myself at all. I've been clear from the start, that linking league to Championship is not the way to do it. What I have given though, is what I would see the better way. And I've also given a suggestion of how to link it better, if that's the way they're going to go (which looks like they are). It's possible to hold 2 opinions on 2 different scenarios, and that's not being contradictory. I've been consistent in what I'm saying.

And yes, I agree with most of what you say. But I'd go further. I'd run the league as is, and let it be the secondary competition where you can try things. Then promote the 2 Tailteann finalists, and have playoffs between the 4 Round 1 Qualifier losers and relegate the 2 losers of that. You therefore reward good Championship form, and relegate on poor form. As it should be. Every Championship in the country is based on how you did in the previous years Championship. Why all of a sudden so we do differently to the biggest Championship of them all? League is secondary"
What you say is true. However you're again showing you're only worried about it because it effects Cavan. In another post you were very sure to show Cavans record of sorts in championship in recent years.

But of course you'll never actually admit it and will just claim people are angry for darling to question you...

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 22/06/2022 07:35:41    2426744

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Provincial finalists, Tailteann winner and 7 best league teams is a fair starting point for the Sam Maguire 16.
If the Sam Maguire 16 and Tailteann 16 become established, consideration can be given to tweaks in the qualification method used.
Provincial winners, Tailteann winner and 11 best league teams is probably a better method long term. If enough counties agree, a motion to Congress can seek change?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7840 - 22/06/2022 10:32:28    2426785

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "Not contradicting myself at all. I've been clear from the start, that linking league to Championship is not the way to do it. What I have given though, is what I would see the better way. And I've also given a suggestion of how to link it better, if that's the way they're going to go (which looks like they are). It's possible to hold 2 opinions on 2 different scenarios, and that's not being contradictory. I've been consistent in what I'm saying.

And yes, I agree with most of what you say. But I'd go further. I'd run the league as is, and let it be the secondary competition where you can try things. Then promote the 2 Tailteann finalists, and have playoffs between the 4 Round 1 Qualifier losers and relegate the 2 losers of that. You therefore reward good Championship form, and relegate on poor form. As it should be. Every Championship in the country is based on how you did in the previous years Championship. Why all of a sudden so we do differently to the biggest Championship of them all? League is secondary"
I see where you are coming from - but not in agreement with you.
1. only ever promote the winner of tailteann cup. no team wants to go up as a loser they want to win it in their own right.
2. really is there much difference in the makeup of the teams in the All ireland series whether you used the league standing or the promotion /relegation scenario you are talking about.
3. Im not a fan of relegation playoffs - especially at intercounty level if a team has a bad run maybe some players leave the panel or go to america. its not a true reflection of where a team is at. Whole season based on 1 game whereas at least league performance should be more consistent. Look for example how Cavan ended up in Div 4. it was as a result of a one off relegation match based on an abbreviated league competition. so that is why i would say that bringing league form is a better way of assessing where the top 16 teams lie.

indaknownow (Offaly) - Posts: 112 - 22/06/2022 11:38:43    2426801

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "It's started at the end of January, and done by March before the clocks change. That's winter football pal. Sure they when called it the windy league this year due the the bad weather most of the way through it. We're basing things on a League played at a bad time of the year, as the dates show. It's meant to be a summer game for Championship"
On this basis the Championship of 2020 championship is a lesser competition due to the weather. How does this effect your rating as Cavan as on of the best championship teams in the country.

Backheel (Leitrim) - Posts: 133 - 22/06/2022 11:41:47    2426803

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Replying To Backheel:  "On this basis the Championship of 2020 championship is a lesser competition due to the weather. How does this effect your rating as Cavan as on of the best championship teams in the country."
No, as that Championship, and we're not currently basing another competition on that. If you can't see the point I'm trying to make, then don't make a different point and argue that one. My point is that we use winter League football to judge a split for Championship. What on earth has the Covid disrupted Championship of 2020 got to do with that point?

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2382 - 22/06/2022 12:34:48    2426819

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The reason for championship only in club football is for a specific reason.

Clubs are only guaranteed access to their county players for championship. It doesn't apply to the inter county game.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4217 - 22/06/2022 12:47:49    2426822

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Replying To indaknownow:  "I see where you are coming from - but not in agreement with you.
1. only ever promote the winner of tailteann cup. no team wants to go up as a loser they want to win it in their own right.
2. really is there much difference in the makeup of the teams in the All ireland series whether you used the league standing or the promotion /relegation scenario you are talking about.
3. Im not a fan of relegation playoffs - especially at intercounty level if a team has a bad run maybe some players leave the panel or go to america. its not a true reflection of where a team is at. Whole season based on 1 game whereas at least league performance should be more consistent. Look for example how Cavan ended up in Div 4. it was as a result of a one off relegation match based on an abbreviated league competition. so that is why i would say that bringing league form is a better way of assessing where the top 16 teams lie."
A lot of valid points. I'd say:
1. I get that, which is maybe why we need a combination of factors (I don't have all the answers, I'm just spinning wheels). Although while it would obviously be nice to go up as winners and a trophy, I'm sure most counties would be glad to get up to the next level and out of the bottom tier regardless. Otherwise just 1 up and 1 down each year is too few, unless we go to a 3rd tier which I don't think is the right thing at this time.

2. Not much difference really right now, if we're being honest. But there are differences, and I feel it'll affect teams going forward from here on. Teams now need to target the League to ensure they get a good placing, need to go balls out from pre-season to be ready for the 7 League games. And then be able to raise it again for Championship when that comes after. The big counties with large squads can absorb this, but middle teams with maybe a decent strength 15 to 20 players will be stretched with any injuries or the like in winter months. And at the end of the day, League was always about building up to Championship. Bringing in squad players, others you saw from club games and want a look, trialling tactics and all that. Seeing where your team is at. But we're now turning it into win at all cost games, without that ability to try things. And this affects teams, I'd just much rather they stick to the age old standard of Championship games decides Championship. It's where you see teams proper, not League.

3. Relegation playoffs is the accepted standard that the GAA tell counties how to run in their own Championship. I see no problem with going to them here. And it won't be a once off game. My example was to place the 4 Round 1 qualifier losers into it. To get relegated you need to lose your first provincial game, the Round 1 qualifier, and then the relegation playoff to a team who also lost their first 2 games. If you lose here, then I would say you deserve to be relegated. They've 3 chances to stay up in Championship matches, the games where it really matters. Can't see players going to America when this is on the line. And either way, this could be run off by late May/early June when you have your Round 1 losers.

And I know all about that relegation playoff, lots of other factors to that one though, but jaysus that was bad for us. But we did get ourselves into that position.

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2382 - 22/06/2022 12:51:28    2426824

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Replying To anotheralias:  "Have to agree. I didnt realise the double standard until you pointed it out. Croke Park came the heavy hand with counties forcing them to impose relegation based on championship. Im not saying thats right or wrong. But the double standards is galling that now they are linking IC championship to league. I long for the day that the GAA is ran by people with a combination of brains and integrity. Wishful thinking."
Glad to see someone gets it, all I'm doing is pointing out how it's odd. Like I don't think they'll do it, but it should be based on Championship. Like I agree, I've had dealings with the GAA on issues at club and county level when I was more involved on boards years back. And we were told in no uncertain terms how we needed to abide by the Championship regulations that the GAA set out. We had a proposal for a Championship structure and were told a flat no, even when we pointed out an issue/contradiction with their regulations. Yet they go and set up their own that ignores a lot of what they set out themselves. It's a head scratcher, but like you say, you'd wonder about those running things.

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2382 - 22/06/2022 13:04:26    2426831

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By having 16 teams in the Sam Maguire and 16 in the Tailteann, the GAA are leading the way with the 16 team limit.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7840 - 22/06/2022 13:41:10    2426841

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Replying To legendzxix:  "By having 16 teams in the Sam Maguire and 16 in the Tailteann, the GAA are leading the way with the 16 team limit."
33 teams enter the championship. . .

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5012 - 22/06/2022 18:20:42    2426916

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Replying To carlovia:  "Three tiers would be a disaster.

The reason the Tommy Murphy cup failed was because the
Division 4 teams were tired of playing each other.

Two tiers is fine and so far I've been impressed with how serious counties have taken it."
Agreed. Just read what McStay said and it is hard to know what logic took him there. He seems to forget that this is not the first attempt at tiers in football. The All-Ireland B Championship of the 1990's was a type of tier and ended in a farce, as did the Tommy Murphy cup for exactly the reasons given by carlovia. There is always lots of yo-yoing between Division 3 and 4 teams in league. It is a very different dynamic to the gulf that exists between some hurling tiers for example. Lest we forget that there is still an All Ireland Junior Championship in existence but it died a death in any practical sense after Kerry and Cork ended up winning 12 of 15 between 2005 and 2019, and it was downgraded to a competition for Kilkenny and overseas (Britain Juniors + New York). Hard to understand why McStay feels a third tier adds anything. Madness.

LongfordgaaAbú (Longford) - Posts: 471 - 22/06/2022 19:32:43    2426930

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2 enjoyable semi finals last weekend.

F4 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 47 - 22/06/2022 21:06:50    2426951

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Really fancy Westmeath to win the cup. They feeling no pressure unlike the Cavan team who's supporters just expect they will win it. I would be delighted for the lake men. It was great to see them loving playing in Croker after so many dismal defeats there at the hands of Dublin over the past number of years.

P.Mckenna (Louth) - Posts: 105 - 22/06/2022 21:58:37    2426955

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Replying To P.Mckenna:  "Really fancy Westmeath to win the cup. They feeling no pressure unlike the Cavan team who's supporters just expect they will win it. I would be delighted for the lake men. It was great to see them loving playing in Croker after so many dismal defeats there at the hands of Dublin over the past number of years."
many thanks for the vote of confidence . to hear the cavan crowd it seems its their divine right to win . i expect a great game . the flags are up and im hoping for a win

mickcunningham (Westmeath) - Posts: 1800 - 23/06/2022 10:39:43    2426997

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