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Replying To Loughduff Lad: "Anyone read Martin Brehenys comments in the Indo yesterday? Link hereKnow he's not always everyone's cup of tea, but makes some very valid points. He discusses that cutoff lines drawn for each Championship Tier is too arbitrary. Solely going on League alone is not a viable way of doing it. He uses examples of Cavan versus likes of Louth and Limerick. Cavan have beaten multiple top 16 level teams last 5 years (many Division 1 mainstays too), while Louth and Limerick have never beaten any in the same period. Yet they drew the lines on league only, after 2 disrupted seasons, and didn't take any Championship form in account. And he is probably right in saying it doesn't necessarily need to be a 16 and 16 split. A 20 and 12 split would still have a competitive Sam, and the 12 below would be the teams who would be able to compete for Tailteann. And lets be honest: Cavan, Westmeath, or Tipp) if they drop down to it) would probably be beating the other teams out the gate anyway, so is this doing them any good anyway? And I overall just have to agree. I saw many here mention that each county has tiered Championship from Senior, Intermediate, and Junior. But do these counties redraw them every year, and base them solely on League just gone? Don't think so. This Tailteann Cup and qualifying criteria needs a huge rethink if this is to be the success it needs to be. The right sides need to be in the right competition on a number of factors. Be it my suggestion of more equitable leagues, or a combination of League and Championship results over the last number of seasons."
himachechy (Donegal) - Posts: 293 - 12/05/2022 14:09:43
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If ye're getting into different splits then 12 - 10 -10 is the way to go.
Even 16 in the "Sam" will have no hopes but 20...!!
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2487 - 12/05/2022 14:49:30
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Replying To himachechy: " Replying To Loughduff Lad: "Anyone read Martin Brehenys comments in the Indo yesterday? Link hereKnow he's not always everyone's cup of tea, but makes some very valid points. He discusses that cutoff lines drawn for each Championship Tier is too arbitrary. Solely going on League alone is not a viable way of doing it. He uses examples of Cavan versus likes of Louth and Limerick. Cavan have beaten multiple top 16 level teams last 5 years (many Division 1 mainstays too), while Louth and Limerick have never beaten any in the same period. Yet they drew the lines on league only, after 2 disrupted seasons, and didn't take any Championship form in account. And he is probably right in saying it doesn't necessarily need to be a 16 and 16 split. A 20 and 12 split would still have a competitive Sam, and the 12 below would be the teams who would be able to compete for Tailteann. And lets be honest: Cavan, Westmeath, or Tipp) if they drop down to it) would probably be beating the other teams out the gate anyway, so is this doing them any good anyway? And I overall just have to agree. I saw many here mention that each county has tiered Championship from Senior, Intermediate, and Junior. But do these counties redraw them every year, and base them solely on League just gone? Don't think so. This Tailteann Cup and qualifying criteria needs a huge rethink if this is to be the success it needs to be. The right sides need to be in the right competition on a number of factors. Be it my suggestion of more equitable leagues, or a combination of League and Championship results over the last number of seasons." Lough duff - Are you sure you're not from Cork? You'll have the competitions changed just to get Cavan back to the top table! Ye have a cracking team and one of the best managers in the country. Give it a year or two, Cavan will get back to the right level"
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2480 - 12/05/2022 14:50:37
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5 year league tables are stupid for deciding who goes into Tailteann. That would just create inertia.
No matter where the split occurs you'll always get a few teams that look a bit stronger than the rest of their tier and the competition doesn't do a whole lot for but at the end of the day if a team finds themselves in Tailteann they haven't really played well enough to be championship contenders. The criteria isn't exactly.
I don't really see the reason why a 20/12 split is better than 16/16. It's arbitrary where the split occurs but surely 50/50 an have competitions that mirror one another makes the most sense.
We've a 4 tier league that split into quarter because that's the natural split.
2 tier championship should be just a 50/50 split too.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4590 - 12/05/2022 14:55:26
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Replying To himachechy: " Replying To Loughduff Lad: "Anyone read Martin Brehenys comments in the Indo yesterday? Link hereKnow he's not always everyone's cup of tea, but makes some very valid points. He discusses that cutoff lines drawn for each Championship Tier is too arbitrary. Solely going on League alone is not a viable way of doing it. He uses examples of Cavan versus likes of Louth and Limerick. Cavan have beaten multiple top 16 level teams last 5 years (many Division 1 mainstays too), while Louth and Limerick have never beaten any in the same period. Yet they drew the lines on league only, after 2 disrupted seasons, and didn't take any Championship form in account. And he is probably right in saying it doesn't necessarily need to be a 16 and 16 split. A 20 and 12 split would still have a competitive Sam, and the 12 below would be the teams who would be able to compete for Tailteann. And lets be honest: Cavan, Westmeath, or Tipp) if they drop down to it) would probably be beating the other teams out the gate anyway, so is this doing them any good anyway? And I overall just have to agree. I saw many here mention that each county has tiered Championship from Senior, Intermediate, and Junior. But do these counties redraw them every year, and base them solely on League just gone? Don't think so. This Tailteann Cup and qualifying criteria needs a huge rethink if this is to be the success it needs to be. The right sides need to be in the right competition on a number of factors. Be it my suggestion of more equitable leagues, or a combination of League and Championship results over the last number of seasons." Lough duff - Are you sure you're not from Cork? You'll have the competitions changed just to get Cavan back to the top table! Ye have a cracking team and one of the best managers in the country. Give it a year or two, Cavan will get back to the right level"
I know we've a good team and manager. We're already at a right level, as we saw Sunday, we're close to the top teams as our Ulster results show last 5 seasons. People put a huge amount of stock more than they should into League and positions. And for some reason the GAA followed suit ands drew the lines there for the Tiers. I've always maintained that this Cavan side under Graham are a Championship side, and our League form never always went with that. That was the point both I and Breheny are making.
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2480 - 12/05/2022 15:04:35
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Replying To himachechy: " Replying To Loughduff Lad: "Anyone read Martin Brehenys comments in the Indo yesterday? Link hereKnow he's not always everyone's cup of tea, but makes some very valid points. He discusses that cutoff lines drawn for each Championship Tier is too arbitrary. Solely going on League alone is not a viable way of doing it. He uses examples of Cavan versus likes of Louth and Limerick. Cavan have beaten multiple top 16 level teams last 5 years (many Division 1 mainstays too), while Louth and Limerick have never beaten any in the same period. Yet they drew the lines on league only, after 2 disrupted seasons, and didn't take any Championship form in account. And he is probably right in saying it doesn't necessarily need to be a 16 and 16 split. A 20 and 12 split would still have a competitive Sam, and the 12 below would be the teams who would be able to compete for Tailteann. And lets be honest: Cavan, Westmeath, or Tipp) if they drop down to it) would probably be beating the other teams out the gate anyway, so is this doing them any good anyway? And I overall just have to agree. I saw many here mention that each county has tiered Championship from Senior, Intermediate, and Junior. But do these counties redraw them every year, and base them solely on League just gone? Don't think so. This Tailteann Cup and qualifying criteria needs a huge rethink if this is to be the success it needs to be. The right sides need to be in the right competition on a number of factors. Be it my suggestion of more equitable leagues, or a combination of League and Championship results over the last number of seasons." Lough duff - Are you sure you're not from Cork? You'll have the competitions changed just to get Cavan back to the top table! Ye have a cracking team and one of the best managers in the country. Give it a year or two, Cavan will get back to the right level"
LongfordgaaAbú (Longford) - Posts: 621 - 12/05/2022 15:27:30
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Its funny how the brains of the association came together to resolve the problem of our football competition format and here we are!
Most team sports around the world follow a similar competition format and isnt constantly questioned. The GAA Football competition format is exceptionally different and is constantly questioned.
Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1477 - 12/05/2022 15:45:10
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Replying To LongfordgaaAbú: " Replying To himachechy: "[quote=Loughduff Lad: "Anyone read Martin Brehenys comments in the Indo yesterday? Link hereKnow he's not always everyone's cup of tea, but makes some very valid points. He discusses that cutoff lines drawn for each Championship Tier is too arbitrary. Solely going on League alone is not a viable way of doing it. He uses examples of Cavan versus likes of Louth and Limerick. Cavan have beaten multiple top 16 level teams last 5 years (many Division 1 mainstays too), while Louth and Limerick have never beaten any in the same period. Yet they drew the lines on league only, after 2 disrupted seasons, and didn't take any Championship form in account. And he is probably right in saying it doesn't necessarily need to be a 16 and 16 split. A 20 and 12 split would still have a competitive Sam, and the 12 below would be the teams who would be able to compete for Tailteann. And lets be honest: Cavan, Westmeath, or Tipp) if they drop down to it) would probably be beating the other teams out the gate anyway, so is this doing them any good anyway? And I overall just have to agree. I saw many here mention that each county has tiered Championship from Senior, Intermediate, and Junior. But do these counties redraw them every year, and base them solely on League just gone? Don't think so. This Tailteann Cup and qualifying criteria needs a huge rethink if this is to be the success it needs to be. The right sides need to be in the right competition on a number of factors. Be it my suggestion of more equitable leagues, or a combination of League and Championship results over the last number of seasons." Lough duff - Are you sure you're not from Cork? You'll have the competitions changed just to get Cavan back to the top table! Ye have a cracking team and one of the best managers in the country. Give it a year or two, Cavan will get back to the right level"
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2480 - 12/05/2022 15:59:16
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Replying To Whammo86: "5 year league tables are stupid for deciding who goes into Tailteann. That would just create inertia.
No matter where the split occurs you'll always get a few teams that look a bit stronger than the rest of their tier and the competition doesn't do a whole lot for but at the end of the day if a team finds themselves in Tailteann they haven't really played well enough to be championship contenders. The criteria isn't exactly.
I don't really see the reason why a 20/12 split is better than 16/16. It's arbitrary where the split occurs but surely 50/50 an have competitions that mirror one another makes the most sense.
We've a 4 tier league that split into quarter because that's the natural split.
2 tier championship should be just a 50/50 split too." Who said a 5 year League table? Just said a combination of League and Championship results gives a better picture, if you'd read my post.
Isn't everything arbitrary? This is literally what the GAA have done. They've arbitrarily drawn a line and decided League will decide Championship Tier. Even though either side of that line there are teams very close to either. And why is that a natural split? It's only been a natural split since the GAA did so in 2008. I still think deciding our Championship on league is a bit mad, what county in the country does that? But we decide to do it for inter county? Even the Ladies with their split model keep Tiers where you go up or down based on performances in that competition, and relegation from each too. A natural looking split on even numbers does not mean it should just happen, especially when you've teams in one when they really should be in the other. Like from next year a team who finishes 6th in Division 2 can miss out if a Division 3 team makes a provincial final. Like, what??? Come on mate...
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2480 - 12/05/2022 16:07:05
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Replying To Loughduff Lad: "Who said a 5 year League table? Just said a combination of League and Championship results gives a better picture, if you'd read my post.
Isn't everything arbitrary? This is literally what the GAA have done. They've arbitrarily drawn a line and decided League will decide Championship Tier. Even though either side of that line there are teams very close to either. And why is that a natural split? It's only been a natural split since the GAA did so in 2008. I still think deciding our Championship on league is a bit mad, what county in the country does that? But we decide to do it for inter county? Even the Ladies with their split model keep Tiers where you go up or down based on performances in that competition, and relegation from each too. A natural looking split on even numbers does not mean it should just happen, especially when you've teams in one when they really should be in the other. Like from next year a team who finishes 6th in Division 2 can miss out if a Division 3 team makes a provincial final. Like, what??? Come on mate..." Martin Breheny in his article talks about ranking teams but multiple league campaigns.
Also using knockout championship performance isn't great. The knockout format has just too much variance to it. What would we use as the criteria. Average round reached? How do you account for easier draws for different teams? He's putting a lot of weight into Cavan having wins against division 1 teams but there's a bias there where Ulster teams have more opportunity to beat division 1 teams because there are more division 1 teams in Ulster and also those division one teams aren't as strong as Dublin or Kerry on average.
Really it's just a bit of an irrational piece from start to finish.
Having said that I don't like using the league as the determination of championship, I'd love the championship just to be its own thing. 2 tiers, 2 groups of 8, 3 up 3 down between tiers. Played from April to July.
In the proposed system you could have the All Ireland finalist from last season not qualify for the following season. I mean this sort of thing can happen in the Champions League or World Cup too but it's not a great system in my opinion.
Having equal numbers and the same/very similar format for both competitions as a result feels like it should be the default and I can't see a good reason to diverge from that.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4590 - 12/05/2022 16:49:34
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Replying To Loughduff Lad: "Who said a 5 year League table? Just said a combination of League and Championship results gives a better picture, if you'd read my post.
Isn't everything arbitrary? This is literally what the GAA have done. They've arbitrarily drawn a line and decided League will decide Championship Tier. Even though either side of that line there are teams very close to either. And why is that a natural split? It's only been a natural split since the GAA did so in 2008. I still think deciding our Championship on league is a bit mad, what county in the country does that? But we decide to do it for inter county? Even the Ladies with their split model keep Tiers where you go up or down based on performances in that competition, and relegation from each too. A natural looking split on even numbers does not mean it should just happen, especially when you've teams in one when they really should be in the other. Like from next year a team who finishes 6th in Division 2 can miss out if a Division 3 team makes a provincial final. Like, what??? Come on mate..." I've also stated plenty of times that o don't like the provincial runners up qualifying by default either.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4590 - 12/05/2022 16:54:17
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Replying To Whammo86: "Martin Breheny in his article talks about ranking teams but multiple league campaigns.
Also using knockout championship performance isn't great. The knockout format has just too much variance to it. What would we use as the criteria. Average round reached? How do you account for easier draws for different teams? He's putting a lot of weight into Cavan having wins against division 1 teams but there's a bias there where Ulster teams have more opportunity to beat division 1 teams because there are more division 1 teams in Ulster and also those division one teams aren't as strong as Dublin or Kerry on average.
Really it's just a bit of an irrational piece from start to finish.
Having said that I don't like using the league as the determination of championship, I'd love the championship just to be its own thing. 2 tiers, 2 groups of 8, 3 up 3 down between tiers. Played from April to July.
In the proposed system you could have the All Ireland finalist from last season not qualify for the following season. I mean this sort of thing can happen in the Champions League or World Cup too but it's not a great system in my opinion.
Having equal numbers and the same/very similar format for both competitions as a result feels like it should be the default and I can't see a good reason to diverge from that." He mentions Championship too. And don't we literally use Championship performance to grade teams in counties all over the island? That's my point. They have used the one weird option that no one else uses, and ignores many other factors. On top of Covid disrupted Leagues. That's clear to see there...
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2480 - 12/05/2022 17:48:45
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Replying To Whammo86: "I've also stated plenty of times that o don't like the provincial runners up qualifying by default either." So how do you plan it? It's plain as day the whole setup is all over the place and needs rejigged. Everyone has some issue with it and holes are being poked on it all over. The more you look at it, the stupider the setup looks
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2480 - 12/05/2022 17:57:09
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Replying To Loughduff Lad: "Who said a 5 year League table? Just said a combination of League and Championship results gives a better picture, if you'd read my post.
Isn't everything arbitrary? This is literally what the GAA have done. They've arbitrarily drawn a line and decided League will decide Championship Tier. Even though either side of that line there are teams very close to either. And why is that a natural split? It's only been a natural split since the GAA did so in 2008. I still think deciding our Championship on league is a bit mad, what county in the country does that? But we decide to do it for inter county? Even the Ladies with their split model keep Tiers where you go up or down based on performances in that competition, and relegation from each too. A natural looking split on even numbers does not mean it should just happen, especially when you've teams in one when they really should be in the other. Like from next year a team who finishes 6th in Division 2 can miss out if a Division 3 team makes a provincial final. Like, what??? Come on mate..." So how do we decide it then? You're throwing out all these things yet nothing to say how it should work?
oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1651 - 12/05/2022 18:11:30
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Replying To Whammo86: "I've also stated plenty of times that o don't like the provincial runners up qualifying by default either." What does tailteann cup mean ?
Like Christy rinn was after a player.
Mattyreilly (Westmeath) - Posts: 168 - 12/05/2022 21:05:52
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Replying To oneoff: "So how do we decide it then? You're throwing out all these things yet nothing to say how it should work?" I've given loads of suggestions above. But I'm not the GAA. Am I to be the one to solve the problems? Simply saying that all the great minds who administer our game have mad an absolute hames of it. They fix end results, not root cause problems. They go against set GAA standards for Championship, use League as qualification (disrupted Leagues at that), and then don't communicate out what it all means.
If I had carte blanche, I'd use a one off qualification year League and Championship, to grade all teams. Use a combination of both to assess all teams, and come up with a ranking on where you finish and then divide on that for a proper start that is based on all counties current ability. I'd split it 20/13 (allowing for NY) Have the League as it is (can be tiered as much or as little as you like) but leave it alone as the secondary competition; movement between the Championship tiers can then only be based on championship performances, where there are relegation playoffs to drop, with similar to get promoted up.
Therefore counties have a chance to play at their level, and either win or compete in the top Tier, or compete or win a cup and get promoted up from the 2nd tier. When they get promoted up, they have a chance to be competitive (not just one sole year of qualifiers after a win after which they return down based on league position) and get games, and if they're still poor after that they have a chance to stay up in any potential relegation playoffs against the other teams who fared poorly. Isn't this type of Championship structure in place in nearly every county in the land? This is far better than the joke of a system we're trying to implement here.
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2480 - 13/05/2022 10:34:28
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Replying To Mattyreilly: "What does tailteann cup mean ?
Like Christy rinn was after a player." It was the name of a festival of ancient games, like the Irish version of the Olympics, held in medieval times. They were resurrected in 1920s or such. It is an odd name for a cup, what with it being the name of the Meath county ground too. So old Irish name, tacked onto a secondary GAA competition.
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2480 - 13/05/2022 10:53:38
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Replying To Mattyreilly: "What does tailteann cup mean ?
Like Christy rinn was after a player." In Bronze Age Ireland, large sporting gatherings known as funeral games were held. These were athletic competitions held to honour a recently deceased person. The name Tailteann derives from the Aonach Tailteann (the Tailtin Fair) held in the townload of Teltown between Navan and Kells. According to the Annals of the Kingdom of Ireland, the fair was established by the legendary king Lugh Lámhfhada (reigned 1849 to 1809 BC) in honour of his foster-mother, Tailtiu.
The Tailteann Games were re-established just after independence as a sport championships for Irish people or those with Irish ancestry. They were held across Ireland in 1924, 1928 and 1932. Launched to celebrate independence, the Games were first announced in 1921 but due to the Civil War the Games were postponed until August of 1924.
In 1924 and 1928, the Tailteann Games were held shortly after the Summer Olympics, allowing athletes that had participated in Paris (1924) and Amsterdam (1928) to compete. Additionally, some Olympic athletes who were not of Irish ancestry were invited to compete to increase the competition and attract audiences. The Tailteann Games were held in various venues across Ireland, centred in Croke Park. Events were held in athletics swimming and other aquatic sports, rowing, boxing, rounders, yachting, golf, tennis, gymnastics, wrestling, weight-lifting, billiards, chess, Gaelic football, hurling, handball and camogie. There were events beyond sport too, with Irish dancing, music, painting, crafts, writing and storytelling competitions.
In the 1930s there was less will to continue with the Tailteann Games. In 1937, a committee was formed to explore the possibility of holding further games, but with the beginning of World War II, the games never took place again. The name 'Tailteann' reappears in the early 1980's as the name for the All Ireland Juvenile Hurling 'C' Championship competition (Millwood Tailteann Cup) for a few years.
So to cut a long story short, the cup is named after ancient games.
LongfordgaaAbú (Longford) - Posts: 621 - 13/05/2022 12:15:51
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Replying To Loughduff Lad: "I've given loads of suggestions above. But I'm not the GAA. Am I to be the one to solve the problems? Simply saying that all the great minds who administer our game have mad an absolute hames of it. They fix end results, not root cause problems. They go against set GAA standards for Championship, use League as qualification (disrupted Leagues at that), and then don't communicate out what it all means.
If I had carte blanche, I'd use a one off qualification year League and Championship, to grade all teams. Use a combination of both to assess all teams, and come up with a ranking on where you finish and then divide on that for a proper start that is based on all counties current ability. I'd split it 20/13 (allowing for NY) Have the League as it is (can be tiered as much or as little as you like) but leave it alone as the secondary competition; movement between the Championship tiers can then only be based on championship performances, where there are relegation playoffs to drop, with similar to get promoted up.
Therefore counties have a chance to play at their level, and either win or compete in the top Tier, or compete or win a cup and get promoted up from the 2nd tier. When they get promoted up, they have a chance to be competitive (not just one sole year of qualifiers after a win after which they return down based on league position) and get games, and if they're still poor after that they have a chance to stay up in any potential relegation playoffs against the other teams who fared poorly. Isn't this type of Championship structure in place in nearly every county in the land? This is far better than the joke of a system we're trying to implement here." There isn't actually much uniformity in Championship qualifying criteria across the land.
Meath league and championship are separated.
Many Ulster counties they are not though and division 1 teams play senior championship. It's quite common for Promotion to go to the Intermediate champions plus Division 2 champions (or 2nd place if the league winners also won the championship).
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4590 - 13/05/2022 12:20:45
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Replying To Loughduff Lad: "It was the name of a festival of ancient games, like the Irish version of the Olympics, held in medieval times. They were resurrected in 1920s or such. It is an odd name for a cup, what with it being the name of the Meath county ground too. So old Irish name, tacked onto a secondary GAA competition." What is this obsession with the name? No matter what it's called you and others will find something wrong with it.
oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1651 - 13/05/2022 12:46:29
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