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The Top 9 hurling counties have no immediate threat of relegation in the league. Division 1 hurling is a snoozefest. Divisions 2A, 2B, 3A and 3B have similar enough formats. (Bizarrely 2B has a relegation play-off.)
The step up from Division 2A to Division 1 is a big jump. The old Division 1B, on a fair metric system, was a fairer level for the 2A winner to be promoted to. 1B provided competitive hurling pre championship.
1B should be of similar format to 2A. The 1B winner being promoted. The bottom team in 1A being relegated.
Are the Top 9 counties going to dig in their heels and allow this shambles to continue?
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7827 - 12/04/2022 16:24:19
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There was great 'cut' in the NHL some seasons back when only 6 teams played in div1, and 6 in the second division. Teams went hell for leather for a few seasons trying to 'retain their status'. The div1 table was very exciting stuff there for a few years, until certainly Galway seemed to realise by 2017 that they could win league & championship from div2 without busting their asses about relegation/promotion.
This perhaps emphasizes the point that hurling teams generally will have their 'standard', regardless of the league table, or format, or standard that those hurling teams are playing in/at. Raising a county's hurling standard would appear to have more linkage to playing numbers, coaching & hard work, than relating in any way to how you shuffle an NHL format.
Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3410 - 12/04/2022 16:43:07
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Replying To Pope_Benedict: "There was great 'cut' in the NHL some seasons back when only 6 teams played in div1, and 6 in the second division. Teams went hell for leather for a few seasons trying to 'retain their status'. The div1 table was very exciting stuff there for a few years, until certainly Galway seemed to realise by 2017 that they could win league & championship from div2 without busting their asses about relegation/promotion.
This perhaps emphasizes the point that hurling teams generally will have their 'standard', regardless of the league table, or format, or standard that those hurling teams are playing in/at. Raising a county's hurling standard would appear to have more linkage to playing numbers, coaching & hard work, than relating in any way to how you shuffle an NHL format." Counties 10 to 16 have been very accomodating of the provincial championships. Laois, Antrim and Westmeath would be better off in Division 1B against teams ranked 7 to 9.
I have no problem with the standard of the Top 9. Teams 7 to 9 should be able to take their medicine and accept a league ranking that places them in 1B.
Surely the onus should be on 1A managers to find the right balance between competitiveness and development, without a fear of 1B hurling?
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7827 - 12/04/2022 17:34:33
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Replying To Pope_Benedict: "There was great 'cut' in the NHL some seasons back when only 6 teams played in div1, and 6 in the second division. Teams went hell for leather for a few seasons trying to 'retain their status'. The div1 table was very exciting stuff there for a few years, until certainly Galway seemed to realise by 2017 that they could win league & championship from div2 without busting their asses about relegation/promotion.
This perhaps emphasizes the point that hurling teams generally will have their 'standard', regardless of the league table, or format, or standard that those hurling teams are playing in/at. Raising a county's hurling standard would appear to have more linkage to playing numbers, coaching & hard work, than relating in any way to how you shuffle an NHL format." All very good but in 2018 when Westmeath won 2A they put us in with the Munster big 5 plus Galway.Thats just ludicrous we need a proper 1A and 1B or 1 and 2 whatever you want to call it.But the reality is the counties those top 9 need to get together to change it.
jobber (Westmeath) - Posts: 1445 - 12/04/2022 19:30:15
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Replying To Pope_Benedict: "There was great 'cut' in the NHL some seasons back when only 6 teams played in div1, and 6 in the second division. Teams went hell for leather for a few seasons trying to 'retain their status'. The div1 table was very exciting stuff there for a few years, until certainly Galway seemed to realise by 2017 that they could win league & championship from div2 without busting their asses about relegation/promotion.
This perhaps emphasizes the point that hurling teams generally will have their 'standard', regardless of the league table, or format, or standard that those hurling teams are playing in/at. Raising a county's hurling standard would appear to have more linkage to playing numbers, coaching & hard work, than relating in any way to how you shuffle an NHL format." I'd add patience to that,, anyone who wants say, carlow, to be competing for all Irelands, would have to accept that there'll be a tonne of work needs to be put in starting now and even at that they likely won't see the fruits of their labour for maybe two generations.
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1699 - 12/04/2022 19:53:31
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Replying To legendzxix: "The Top 9 hurling counties have no immediate threat of relegation in the league. Division 1 hurling is a snoozefest. Divisions 2A, 2B, 3A and 3B have similar enough formats. (Bizarrely 2B has a relegation play-off.)
The step up from Division 2A to Division 1 is a big jump. The old Division 1B, on a fair metric system, was a fairer level for the 2A winner to be promoted to. 1B provided competitive hurling pre championship.
1B should be of similar format to 2A. The 1B winner being promoted. The bottom team in 1A being relegated.
Are the Top 9 counties going to dig in their heels and allow this shambles to continue?" Problems were 3 fold with the 6 team div1a and 1b. Some counties moaned that not being in div1a meant less competitive games. Then when counties from div1b won the All Ireland some counties in div1a moaned that the counties in div1b had an unfair advantage because they could experiment more without fear of being relegated and could still win the League the way the quarter finals were arranged. And the bottom 2 div1a counties complained that whoever finished 10th in the pyramid, 4th in 1b, still got to a QF while they didnt.
Bottom line is whatever system there is in place some counties wont be happy. I dont think there was a collective decision by 9 counties to change it. What you will need is Cork to be threatened with relegation before there is a change!!!!
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11736 - 12/04/2022 20:15:18
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A possible solution to raise the standards in "lesser" hurling counties: INCENTIVES for youngsters to start playing in the not so strong hurling counties. Incentives could be a free ride through higher education after completing some kind of Hurling Academy and making the county team. OR have JOB FAIRS where young hurlers get first dibs on jobs if qualified. OR get some Credits for University or extra points on the Leaving Cert, etc. Just some thoughts.
Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 2113 - 12/04/2022 21:05:18
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Replying To Galway9801: "I'd add patience to that,, anyone who wants say, carlow, to be competing for all Irelands, would have to accept that there'll be a tonne of work needs to be put in starting now and even at that they likely won't see the fruits of their labour for maybe two generations." The Top 9 are quality. The rest can only improve as best they can. Whatever format that is good enough for 2A should also be good enough for 1B. Consistency across all divisions should be fair enough.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7827 - 13/04/2022 10:01:32
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There is some truth to this, but firstly, when did anybody outside the top 9 counties win a provincial underage title? Yes there have been notable results (e.g. Westmeath beating KK at U21, Kildare beating us at minor) and I don't mean to be condescending but these one-off results have not been backed up with provincial titles.
If for example Kerry won a Munster minor hurling title, and are competitive for a number of years, then they can point to their underage success and say that the adult structures are denying them the opportunity to play the top teams.
Do I think Kerry should be included in the MHC? 100%. If it is OK for Waterford footballers to get hidings in the MFC, why is the reverse not OK?
But when all is said and done, you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear and if teams are not at least competitive at underage, you cannot really expect them to compete at adult level and that is how it is. We know this in Wexford 15+ years ago when KK were giving us bad beatings at underage it was no surprise they were hammering us at adult grade too.
What I do wonder is if Kerry for example played underage hurling in the Limerick/Cork league for example, would that help them improve? Would Wicklow for example do better if in Wexford or Dublin leagues? A rising tide lifts all boats and hurling better teams helps teams progress.
StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1732 - 13/04/2022 10:30:47
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Replying To Trump2020: "A possible solution to raise the standards in "lesser" hurling counties: INCENTIVES for youngsters to start playing in the not so strong hurling counties. Incentives could be a free ride through higher education after completing some kind of Hurling Academy and making the county team. OR have JOB FAIRS where young hurlers get first dibs on jobs if qualified. OR get some Credits for University or extra points on the Leaving Cert, etc. Just some thoughts." As much as I'm a gaa man that wouldn't be very fair on kids who don't play gaa.
I do agree with your general point though that there's a lack of motivation to play in weaker counties, you could be the greatest player in Ireland but will win nothing if you're born in the wrong county, and despite what we say about playing for the love of the game, glory is always one of sports great motivators.
I'd love to see a transfer system talked about in the gaa, kids in carlow watching one of their own lads winning an all Ireland, albeit in a kilkenny /wexford Jersey would aspire to emulate that.
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1699 - 13/04/2022 10:41:42
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Replying To Viking66: "Problems were 3 fold with the 6 team div1a and 1b. Some counties moaned that not being in div1a meant less competitive games. Then when counties from div1b won the All Ireland some counties in div1a moaned that the counties in div1b had an unfair advantage because they could experiment more without fear of being relegated and could still win the League the way the quarter finals were arranged. And the bottom 2 div1a counties complained that whoever finished 10th in the pyramid, 4th in 1b, still got to a QF while they didnt.
Bottom line is whatever system there is in place some counties wont be happy. I dont think there was a collective decision by 9 counties to change it. What you will need is Cork to be threatened with relegation before there is a change!!!!" Agreed that there will be complaints either way. Having a consistent format across all divisions seems the fairest for all. The bottom team in 1A should be relegated. The 1B winner should be promoted.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7827 - 13/04/2022 11:11:12
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Replying To StoreysTash: "There is some truth to this, but firstly, when did anybody outside the top 9 counties win a provincial underage title? Yes there have been notable results (e.g. Westmeath beating KK at U21, Kildare beating us at minor) and I don't mean to be condescending but these one-off results have not been backed up with provincial titles.
If for example Kerry won a Munster minor hurling title, and are competitive for a number of years, then they can point to their underage success and say that the adult structures are denying them the opportunity to play the top teams.
Do I think Kerry should be included in the MHC? 100%. If it is OK for Waterford footballers to get hidings in the MFC, why is the reverse not OK?
But when all is said and done, you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear and if teams are not at least competitive at underage, you cannot really expect them to compete at adult level and that is how it is. We know this in Wexford 15+ years ago when KK were giving us bad beatings at underage it was no surprise they were hammering us at adult grade too.
What I do wonder is if Kerry for example played underage hurling in the Limerick/Cork league for example, would that help them improve? Would Wicklow for example do better if in Wexford or Dublin leagues? A rising tide lifts all boats and hurling better teams helps teams progress." The Kerry minor and U20 hurlers are brave enough to enter the Munster Championship. They learn their lesson and accept the standard of it.
Division 1B is a fair level for all. The lowest 3 of the top 9 and the best 3 of the rest. A fair level.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7827 - 13/04/2022 12:11:28
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Replying To legendzxix: "The Kerry minor and U20 hurlers are brave enough to enter the Munster Championship. They learn their lesson and accept the standard of it.
Division 1B is a fair level for all. The lowest 3 of the top 9 and the best 3 of the rest. A fair level." I don't think you get my point though. It is one thing entering (which they are right to do btw) but it is another thing to win it. This has to be the target of every "2nd grade" county for me.
Hurlers aren't created when they get to adulthood and if they don't get the right coaching up to minor level, I don't think they ever stand a chance of ever competing at the top level in my view.
StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1732 - 13/04/2022 14:46:20
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Replying To Trump2020: "A possible solution to raise the standards in "lesser" hurling counties: INCENTIVES for youngsters to start playing in the not so strong hurling counties. Incentives could be a free ride through higher education after completing some kind of Hurling Academy and making the county team. OR have JOB FAIRS where young hurlers get first dibs on jobs if qualified. OR get some Credits for University or extra points on the Leaving Cert, etc. Just some thoughts." 100% sure that would be illegal. The government funds education and they can't have preference for one sport over another.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 13/04/2022 15:08:25
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I kind of think its funny thats it always the top 8 or 9 counties who seemingly have to be the ones who change it however when it comes to special congress etc where real change can happen the top 9 counties only hold 33 of the 124 county votes available or 33 out of 86 when just including the 32 counties.
Fact of the matter is if there was a real force for change when it comes to hurling then it could simply happen but counties up and down the country are quite happy to just pay lip service to the game and then complain theyre not getting a fair chance.
Its isnt the top 8 or 9 holding things back at all or discriminating its the ones who have no regards whatsover for the game but still get a say in what happens.
tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1328 - 13/04/2022 15:38:04
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Replying To tearintom: "I kind of think its funny thats it always the top 8 or 9 counties who seemingly have to be the ones who change it however when it comes to special congress etc where real change can happen the top 9 counties only hold 33 of the 124 county votes available or 33 out of 86 when just including the 32 counties.
Fact of the matter is if there was a real force for change when it comes to hurling then it could simply happen but counties up and down the country are quite happy to just pay lip service to the game and then complain theyre not getting a fair chance.
Its isnt the top 8 or 9 holding things back at all or discriminating its the ones who have no regards whatsover for the game but still get a say in what happens." You are correct to make that point. Cork wanted to change the league format a few years ago. Carlow disagreed and got the support to scupper Cork's plan. Cork were fuming.
Laois, Antrim and Westmeath should bring a motion for the restoration of Division 1B. Lower tier counties then should get behind it.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7827 - 13/04/2022 17:32:46
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Replying To Viking66: "Problems were 3 fold with the 6 team div1a and 1b. Some counties moaned that not being in div1a meant less competitive games. Then when counties from div1b won the All Ireland some counties in div1a moaned that the counties in div1b had an unfair advantage because they could experiment more without fear of being relegated and could still win the League the way the quarter finals were arranged. And the bottom 2 div1a counties complained that whoever finished 10th in the pyramid, 4th in 1b, still got to a QF while they didnt.
Bottom line is whatever system there is in place some counties wont be happy. I dont think there was a collective decision by 9 counties to change it. What you will need is Cork to be threatened with relegation before there is a change!!!!" Cork were relegated once under that system, so your suggestion that Cork have the power somehow to change any system doesn't hold up.
Midleton (Cork) - Posts: 643 - 13/04/2022 18:36:53
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Replying To Midleton: "Cork were relegated once under that system, so your suggestion that Cork have the power somehow to change any system doesn't hold up." That's not the full story. Cork wanted to change the format to avoid relegation. Carlow scuppered their plan. Cork were furious! ;-)
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7827 - 14/04/2022 08:54:08
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Replying To legendzxix: "That's not the full story. Cork wanted to change the format to avoid relegation. Carlow scuppered their plan. Cork were furious! ;-)" Cork did succeed in that once costing Wexford a place in division 1 after getting a result in thurles on the last day and cost limerick promotion.
Around 09 I think
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2629 - 14/04/2022 09:40:55
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Replying To Midleton: "Cork were relegated once under that system, so your suggestion that Cork have the power somehow to change any system doesn't hold up." Cork finished last in div1a in 2018. Just stayed up by beating Waterford in the relegation playoff. At the end of that season the format was announced to be changed to the present system at the end of the 2019 season. Which season they also finished last in the old div1a. Before winning the deadest of dead rubbers the relegation playoff against Kilkenny.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11736 - 14/04/2022 10:18:34
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