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2022 All-Ireland Hurling Championship thread

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  ""if the back Door system had NOT been there in 2019 neither Tipp nor Kilkenny would be in the Final"

Nor would Offaly have been in 98, and 2000, or Clare 02 and 13, or Limerick in 07 and 18. It's so much easier for one of the smaller counties to get to a final now that we have the back door system."
The back door system favoured the bigger and stronger counties only, the weaker counties took the hit I've been saying this for years, and now I'm having doubts about the introduction of the Tailteann Cup. - My apologies for the interruption.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2658 - 29/08/2022 14:46:46    2439039

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Replying To Viking66:  "That makes no sense. The back door favours the bigger better counties because they might get shocked once. Much less likely they will be shocked twice."
What you say doesn't make sense. Only counties 2 don't benefit from the 'back-door' every year, the Munster Champions and the Leinster Champions. Most of the remaining counties in the Munster and Leinster Championships get a second chance.

Here is a list of all the counties who have come through the back door, and how often, since it started in 1997.

Clare 21
Wexford 20
Dublin 19
Offaly 19
Laois 17
Limerick 17
Tipp 16
Waterford 16
Cork 15
Galway 12
Antrim 7
Westmeath 7
Kilkenny 6
Carlow 5
Down 1
Kerry 1
London 1

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1994 - 29/08/2022 20:46:57    2439097

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "What you say doesn't make sense. Only counties 2 don't benefit from the 'back-door' every year, the Munster Champions and the Leinster Champions. Most of the remaining counties in the Munster and Leinster Championships get a second chance.

Here is a list of all the counties who have come through the back door, and how often, since it started in 1997.

Clare 21
Wexford 20
Dublin 19
Offaly 19
Laois 17
Limerick 17
Tipp 16
Waterford 16
Cork 15
Galway 12
Antrim 7
Westmeath 7
Kilkenny 6
Carlow 5
Down 1
Kerry 1
London 1"
That's a pointless stat CC it doesn't show who benefitted from coming through the backdoor.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 6110 - 29/08/2022 21:24:05    2439101

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Replying To Viking66:  "That's a pointless stat CC it doesn't show who benefitted from coming through the backdoor."
Everyone benefitted, they got a second chance, that is the whole point of the 'back-door'.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1994 - 30/08/2022 08:41:12    2439110

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "Everyone benefitted, they got a second chance, that is the whole point of the 'back-door'."
No they didn't. Most of the "smaller" countiess lost most of their backdoor games to "bigger" counties . The backdoor favours the better teams especially the big 3. If there had of been a backdoor in the 70s or early 90s it might have benefitted Wexford. It was certainly no addition to us when we lost to big 3 counties Tipp twice and Cork in AISFs after we won Leinster and they came through the backdoor.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 6110 - 30/08/2022 09:57:08    2439116

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Replying To daveboy:  "Impossible?
Ronan maher is due back shortly and John mcgrath will be fine for next years championship. I dont think heffernan did the ACL? Morgan is a loss but all intercounty teams have to deal with ACLs injuries nowadays. It's just part and parcel. Callinan bubbles etc will all be available too."
I'd suggest its an impossible task yes. Take 4 backs out of that Limerick team and they'd struggle to get out of Munster and they are the best team around. Take 3-4 backs out of a team who finished bottom of the pile by a distance last year and where does that leave us? Out of the players you named it's likely only Ronan has any chance of being available. The rest won't fit into Cahills plans either way. At the end of last years championship I was optimistic that we were developing a strong back 6 and keeper coupled with Bryan O'Mara and Eoghan Connolly being available. Now it will require wholesale changes again which is disappointing. We have badly struggled to fill the 3 & 4 jerseys for a long time so Morgan in particular is a huge loss.

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 3664 - 30/08/2022 11:44:17    2439138

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Replying To Viking66:  "No they didn't. Most of the "smaller" countiess lost most of their backdoor games to "bigger" counties . The backdoor favours the better teams especially the big 3. If there had of been a backdoor in the 70s or early 90s it might have benefitted Wexford. It was certainly no addition to us when we lost to big 3 counties Tipp twice and Cork in AISFs after we won Leinster and they came through the backdoor."
The back door gave us some great days but in my opinion probably cost us an all Ireland

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 1967 - 30/08/2022 12:06:38    2439139

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Replying To Viking66:  "No they didn't. Most of the "smaller" countiess lost most of their backdoor games to "bigger" counties . The backdoor favours the better teams especially the big 3. If there had of been a backdoor in the 70s or early 90s it might have benefitted Wexford. It was certainly no addition to us when we lost to big 3 counties Tipp twice and Cork in AISFs after we won Leinster and they came through the backdoor."
Most of the 'smaller' counties lost their first games, they would have been out of the Championship anyway, if the 'old way' was still in place.

The back-door hasn't benefitted the bigger counties, there's been no real discernable change in the status quo.
Up until the back-door was introduced 5 years ago, the 'big 3' (Cork, Kilkenny & Tipp) had won 69% of all All-Irelands.
Since the back-door has been introduced the big 3 have won 72% of AIs.

The main benefit of the back-door is that it gives most counties (players) more games (at least 2). And since the provincial round robin format was recently introduced, there are far more games.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1994 - 30/08/2022 13:30:23    2439155

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "Most of the 'smaller' counties lost their first games, they would have been out of the Championship anyway, if the 'old way' was still in place.

The back-door hasn't benefitted the bigger counties, there's been no real discernable change in the status quo.
Up until the back-door was introduced 5 years ago, the 'big 3' (Cork, Kilkenny & Tipp) had won 69% of all All-Irelands.
Since the back-door has been introduced the big 3 have won 72% of AIs.

The main benefit of the back-door is that it gives most counties (players) more games (at least 2). And since the provincial round robin format was recently introduced, there are far more games."
So they have won 3% more? Doesn't that prove the point?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 6110 - 30/08/2022 16:21:34    2439183

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "Most of the 'smaller' counties lost their first games, they would have been out of the Championship anyway, if the 'old way' was still in place.

The back-door hasn't benefitted the bigger counties, there's been no real discernable change in the status quo.
Up until the back-door was introduced 5 years ago, the 'big 3' (Cork, Kilkenny & Tipp) had won 69% of all All-Irelands.
Since the back-door has been introduced the big 3 have won 72% of AIs.

The main benefit of the back-door is that it gives most counties (players) more games (at least 2). And since the provincial round robin format was recently introduced, there are far more games."
thats far too short a period to make a comparison. 5 years compared to 130+....

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 2863 - 30/08/2022 19:16:00    2439198

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Replying To Viking66:  "So they have won 3% more? Doesn't that prove the point?"
3%? You're joking surely? I could have mentioned the anomaly in the 25 year period of the back-door, namely, Kilkenny. No county has ever dominated hurling like Kilkenny did in a 15 year period from 2000 to 2015, when they won 11 All-Irelands. Without this, the big 3's percentage would have been lower.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1994 - 30/08/2022 20:23:05    2439200

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "The back door gave us some great days but in my opinion probably cost us an all Ireland"
When did it cost Wexford an All-Ireland?

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1994 - 30/08/2022 20:29:19    2439201

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "When did it cost Wexford an All-Ireland?"
This is all speculation of course, but for me the one that got away would be 04.

We were leinster champions and Waterford munster, both beaten by back door teams at semi final stage.

We had beaten Waterford in the championship the previous season, I realise I'd be discounting Galway and antrim but neither were anything to write home about at the time.

Thinking of 19, we had won leinster and lost a semi final to a big 3 back door again.

That being said, kilkenny beat limerick and I don't think we could have.

I am of the firm belief that it's much harder for the like of us to beat the big 3 twice in the one season which I would imagine most agree with.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 1967 - 31/08/2022 08:29:59    2439211

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "3%? You're joking surely? I could have mentioned the anomaly in the 25 year period of the back-door, namely, Kilkenny. No county has ever dominated hurling like Kilkenny did in a 15 year period from 2000 to 2015, when they won 11 All-Irelands. Without this, the big 3's percentage would have been lower."
Yes but but who were the 2 best other teams in that period? Cork for the 1st half of it and Tipp for the 2nd half of it. Likely be any AIs dropped by Kilkenny would've been picked up by the other 2 of the big 3.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 6110 - 31/08/2022 10:22:02    2439222

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "This is all speculation of course, but for me the one that got away would be 04.

We were leinster champions and Waterford munster, both beaten by back door teams at semi final stage.

We had beaten Waterford in the championship the previous season, I realise I'd be discounting Galway and antrim but neither were anything to write home about at the time.

Thinking of 19, we had won leinster and lost a semi final to a big 3 back door again.

That being said, kilkenny beat limerick and I don't think we could have.

I am of the firm belief that it's much harder for the like of us to beat the big 3 twice in the one season which I would imagine most agree with."
For sure Doylerwex. Wouldn't be like someone connected to 1 of the big 3 to push their agenda now would it?!

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 6110 - 31/08/2022 10:23:36    2439223

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "This is all speculation of course, but for me the one that got away would be 04.

We were leinster champions and Waterford munster, both beaten by back door teams at semi final stage.

We had beaten Waterford in the championship the previous season, I realise I'd be discounting Galway and antrim but neither were anything to write home about at the time.

Thinking of 19, we had won leinster and lost a semi final to a big 3 back door again.

That being said, kilkenny beat limerick and I don't think we could have.

I am of the firm belief that it's much harder for the like of us to beat the big 3 twice in the one season which I would imagine most agree with."
Its not as clearcut and as simple as that though. If there was no backdoor in the years prior to it would the Wexford team have got the experience required to win that Leinster title? Maybe they would have but I dont think you can take one year in isolation to make your point...
I think in any given year the back door does benefit the strongest teams but then the question is do we not want the best teams winning the All Ireland?
I was massively against the provincial round robins and despite Tipp having a poor record in them I think they have been great for the game. Also, this season all of the big three came very close to being knocked out and not finishing in the top 3. Having said that its hard not to miss the games we had in the 90s and the atmospheres at all games when it was mostly knockout for all teams for most of the decade.
As regards 2019 I think Wexford will see that as a massive opportunity lost. In my time its the most proud I have been of a Tipp team to pull a victory out of that one but I do feel Wexford could have lost that game to anyone in that last 15 mins...the nerves got to them and they completely blew it. Harsh maybe but true I think.

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 3664 - 31/08/2022 11:38:39    2439233

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Replying To tiobraid:  "Its not as clearcut and as simple as that though. If there was no backdoor in the years prior to it would the Wexford team have got the experience required to win that Leinster title? Maybe they would have but I dont think you can take one year in isolation to make your point...
I think in any given year the back door does benefit the strongest teams but then the question is do we not want the best teams winning the All Ireland?
I was massively against the provincial round robins and despite Tipp having a poor record in them I think they have been great for the game. Also, this season all of the big three came very close to being knocked out and not finishing in the top 3. Having said that its hard not to miss the games we had in the 90s and the atmospheres at all games when it was mostly knockout for all teams for most of the decade.
As regards 2019 I think Wexford will see that as a massive opportunity lost. In my time its the most proud I have been of a Tipp team to pull a victory out of that one but I do feel Wexford could have lost that game to anyone in that last 15 mins...the nerves got to them and they completely blew it. Harsh maybe but true I think."
Yes big game inexperience certainly cost us in 2019.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 6110 - 31/08/2022 14:14:00    2439245

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