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Should The Leagues Be Re-Tiered?

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "How many Antrim fans will care about it? The public at large won't care about a second rate competition and they make up the majority of viewers. How long will players tolerate playing in front of small crowds before deciding to head off to America."
Look we'll see. The crowds will be small certainly for rounds before the semifinals but if we're only going to have these players compete when there's a crowd, then they just won't play many games and that's even worse.

Players have been leaving these squads for the US as it is anyway, whatever, the squads sticking around deserves to win it and get the prize of promotion.

If Antrim won the Tailteann Cup and got to the Sam Maguire group stage there'd be serious interest in that.

This is the thing, if you only focus on the Tailteann cup in isolation you won't see that there are overall advantages to these changes.

You just can't have teams play more meaningful matches than the qualifiers system without tiering the competition in some regard and that is the key improvement here that should be focused on.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 03/04/2022 16:49:39    2409276

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "How many Antrim fans will care about it? The public at large won't care about a second rate competition and they make up the majority of viewers. How long will players tolerate playing in front of small crowds before deciding to head off to America."
When players, management and supporters have had a taste of the Top 16, they will want more. The 16:16 split enhances the Top 16. A standard is set. Those missing out will want to join the party. This enhances the Tailteann Cup also. The Tailteann winners will have earned the respect of Top 16 status.
The Tailteann Cup will have a competitive 12. How many of the Tailteann counties are seriously likely to be challenging for the Sam Maguire this year or 2023? 12/16 can seriously be challenging for the Tailteann Cup 2023 and the glory of earning a Top 16 place. Football is in a better place than hurling to have a competitive high profile championship for those in the next bracket.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7846 - 03/04/2022 20:23:18    2409365

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Replying To legendzxix:  "When players, management and supporters have had a taste of the Top 16, they will want more. The 16:16 split enhances the Top 16. A standard is set. Those missing out will want to join the party. This enhances the Tailteann Cup also. The Tailteann winners will have earned the respect of Top 16 status.
The Tailteann Cup will have a competitive 12. How many of the Tailteann counties are seriously likely to be challenging for the Sam Maguire this year or 2023? 12/16 can seriously be challenging for the Tailteann Cup 2023 and the glory of earning a Top 16 place. Football is in a better place than hurling to have a competitive high profile championship for those in the next bracket."
This is my hope too.

It may not play out this way but it's worth giving a chance.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 03/04/2022 21:35:43    2409404

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Replying To legendzxix:  "When players, management and supporters have had a taste of the Top 16, they will want more. The 16:16 split enhances the Top 16. A standard is set. Those missing out will want to join the party. This enhances the Tailteann Cup also. The Tailteann winners will have earned the respect of Top 16 status.
The Tailteann Cup will have a competitive 12. How many of the Tailteann counties are seriously likely to be challenging for the Sam Maguire this year or 2023? 12/16 can seriously be challenging for the Tailteann Cup 2023 and the glory of earning a Top 16 place. Football is in a better place than hurling to have a competitive high profile championship for those in the next bracket."
I'm finding it a little rich how a Kerry man is trying to tell us what we should accept and be happy with, while also being very happy with your own closed shop and not seeing anything to close this gap properly. Why are you so for this, as you're trying very hard to convince that this will be great, when everything points to teams and players likely not bothering with it. Teams will ease up, players will travel to the US for the summer etc. You know this will happen, and here you are trying to convince us the sun will shine when we see the storm clouds

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 04/04/2022 07:58:55    2409418

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "I'm finding it a little rich how a Kerry man is trying to tell us what we should accept and be happy with, while also being very happy with your own closed shop and not seeing anything to close this gap properly. Why are you so for this, as you're trying very hard to convince that this will be great, when everything points to teams and players likely not bothering with it. Teams will ease up, players will travel to the US for the summer etc. You know this will happen, and here you are trying to convince us the sun will shine when we see the storm clouds"
I'm finding it a little rich that you are dismissing my support for the Kerry hurlers. I would want to see Kerry very competitive if there was a Tailteann Hurling Cup rewarding the winner a place in the Top 16.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7846 - 04/04/2022 14:44:41    2409544

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Replying To legendzxix:  "I'm finding it a little rich that you are dismissing my support for the Kerry hurlers. I would want to see Kerry very competitive if there was a Tailteann Hurling Cup rewarding the winner a place in the Top 16."
And hurling is a very different proposition as you well know. There are only the handful who are competitive and they're in Liam McCarthy already. Football is different as while there's an elite, there's a sizeable group below that who can reach across and compete here and there. It's very different. You're happy with it as is, as there's no risk to your guys closed shop. Lower teams need exposure, not cut down to their own competition where they'll never be heard from again

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 04/04/2022 18:42:04    2409637

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "And hurling is a very different proposition as you well know. There are only the handful who are competitive and they're in Liam McCarthy already. Football is different as while there's an elite, there's a sizeable group below that who can reach across and compete here and there. It's very different. You're happy with it as is, as there's no risk to your guys closed shop. Lower teams need exposure, not cut down to their own competition where they'll never be heard from again"
I think this is very unfair.

The players overwhelmingly wanted this sort of change.

It's an improvement on the qualifiers.

Antrim instead of getting 1 or 2 qualifiers games get a guaranteed 3 games and most likely 4+ games most seasons against a similar standard of team as they are playing in the qualifiers anyway.

The key also is the top tier isn't overly elitist, 16 teams is very open.

1 Sam Maguire campaign would give Antrim more exposure to playing top teams than we've had through the qualifiers for the past 10 seasons.

We have to stop narrowing in on teams being in the Tailteann and look at the system as a whole.

A bit of hazard (ending up in Tailteann) can add edge to the other league fixtures too.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 05/04/2022 10:09:25    2409681

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "And hurling is a very different proposition as you well know. There are only the handful who are competitive and they're in Liam McCarthy already. Football is different as while there's an elite, there's a sizeable group below that who can reach across and compete here and there. It's very different. You're happy with it as is, as there's no risk to your guys closed shop. Lower teams need exposure, not cut down to their own competition where they'll never be heard from again"
They'll have exposure in the provincial championships. The Tailteann winners will be competitive in the Top 16. I cannot see them being forgotten.
TG4 broadcasted all football finals at the weekend. The 2A hurling final was only streamed. There's too much quality in the Tailteann Cup to be ignored. It's about providing a fair platform which I think they have achieved.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7846 - 05/04/2022 10:36:50    2409693

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Replying To legendzxix:  "They'll have exposure in the provincial championships. The Tailteann winners will be competitive in the Top 16. I cannot see them being forgotten.
TG4 broadcasted all football finals at the weekend. The 2A hurling final was only streamed. There's too much quality in the Tailteann Cup to be ignored. It's about providing a fair platform which I think they have achieved."
But they will ignore it, that's the point. The GAA will ignore it (bad game time, early Saturday throw ins, not prime times), the TV and media will ignore it, and the players will too. Not too hard to see that. And then the gap will widen. Like I find it hard to believe you're trying to convince yourself this isn't the case, but all known info about this, the top will be shown and given all the airtime and the rest will be be a footnote to be ignored and forgotten. I don't doubt you're sincere on this, just naïve

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 05/04/2022 10:56:22    2409699

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "But they will ignore it, that's the point. The GAA will ignore it (bad game time, early Saturday throw ins, not prime times), the TV and media will ignore it, and the players will too. Not too hard to see that. And then the gap will widen. Like I find it hard to believe you're trying to convince yourself this isn't the case, but all known info about this, the top will be shown and given all the airtime and the rest will be be a footnote to be ignored and forgotten. I don't doubt you're sincere on this, just naïve"
I agree that the media will likely ignore this but I'm not sure it's a given that players will. The players want to play more matches and at their level. This plan has been really player focused to be fair to it.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 05/04/2022 11:16:01    2409708

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "But they will ignore it, that's the point. The GAA will ignore it (bad game time, early Saturday throw ins, not prime times), the TV and media will ignore it, and the players will too. Not too hard to see that. And then the gap will widen. Like I find it hard to believe you're trying to convince yourself this isn't the case, but all known info about this, the top will be shown and given all the airtime and the rest will be be a footnote to be ignored and forgotten. I don't doubt you're sincere on this, just naïve"
The GPA have been on board with a Tailteann Cup that rewards the winner. That endorsement should see the Tailteann Cup earn respected status.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7846 - 05/04/2022 11:33:17    2409717

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I agree that the media will likely ignore this but I'm not sure it's a given that players will. The players want to play more matches and at their level. This plan has been really player focused to be fair to it."
I suppose we'll see. But it'd be no surprise to me if a team goes out, and then into the Tailteann Cup, that they'll lose players to the US and such for the summer.

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 05/04/2022 11:48:27    2409722

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The GPA have been on board with a Tailteann Cup that rewards the winner. That endorsement should see the Tailteann Cup earn respected status."
A re-Tiered League like I suggested, that would see a system mirroring the Championship and see all teams be in with a chance every year of going up or down would be a far better endorsement, but you shot that one down. A single team benefitting every year based on an off-Broadway competition isn't the huge endorsement you think it is. It'll benefit a few teams who feel they can win it, sure, but won't be the panacea you think it is if the gaps widens even further with the Leagues tiered as they are, and the qualification for Championship based on those.

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 05/04/2022 11:55:53    2409726

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "A re-Tiered League like I suggested, that would see a system mirroring the Championship and see all teams be in with a chance every year of going up or down would be a far better endorsement, but you shot that one down. A single team benefitting every year based on an off-Broadway competition isn't the huge endorsement you think it is. It'll benefit a few teams who feel they can win it, sure, but won't be the panacea you think it is if the gaps widens even further with the Leagues tiered as they are, and the qualification for Championship based on those."
The current league has provided the platform for change in the championship. The league is very fair. Division 4 counties will be targeting getting to Division 3. The target then is Division 2 and winning the Tailteann Cup. Reasonable targets for progression.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7846 - 05/04/2022 14:52:12    2409782

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The current league has provided the platform for change in the championship. The league is very fair. Division 4 counties will be targeting getting to Division 3. The target then is Division 2 and winning the Tailteann Cup. Reasonable targets for progression."
It is literally the opposite of fair right now, as I've pointed out to you. You essentially have the onus only on the 2 teams getting relegated from 2 to 3, and the 2 teams replacing them getting promoted from 3 to 2. Division 1 and 4 then serve no real purpose in that case and closes the shop on each, and just widens the gap. A 2 tier league will see Division 1 and 2 teams mixing regularly, helping each other on and letting those at Division 2 level and those just promoted from Div 3 test themselves against the best and learn while getting a chance to compete without an instant relegation. Most Division 4 teams get to compete with their own, and the odd team relegated down. Mixing regularly with other Division 3 sides will bring them on more than just closing the trapdoor over them and keeping them down there on their own. How on earth are they to improve in any way?

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 05/04/2022 15:19:31    2409793

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An example. If we split the Divisions based on positions just finished, Division 1 first into 1a, 2nd into 1b and so on you'd get:

1a - Kerry, Armagh, Tyrone, Galway, Kildare, Derry, Clare, Louth
1b - Mayo, Donegal, Monaghan, Roscommon, Dublin, Meath, Cork, Limerick
2a - Offaly, Westmeath, Fermanagh, Cavan, Laois, Sligo, London, Carlow
2b - Down, Antrim, Longford, Tipperary, Wicklow, Leitrim, Wexford, Waterford

Like they look fairly spread to me. In the 1a example, Louth, Clare, and Derry (who have not been in Division 1 recently) get a chance to play each other and potentially win enough points to stay up, while also pitting themselves against Kerry, Armagh, Tyrone etc. to see how they go and learn from them. This will bring them on far more and make the Division more equitable. Same in the other Division 1, and the same in the Division 2s. You expose teams to some around their own level, and some above their level. It's gives everyone a chance to at least improve a bit, while giving them also something to aim for in promotion and such.

It just makes sense to me that they do this, when the Championship has been tiered that it mirrors it. At the end of the league, you know who is where

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 05/04/2022 15:30:34    2409801

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"They" have no plans to amalgamate Div 1 with D2 or to amalgamate Ds3 and 4 (thankfully)

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1419 - 05/04/2022 18:56:21    2409860

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Loughduff Lad, the groups could be imbalanced. A ranking of 1 to 32 has no ambiguity like that.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7846 - 05/04/2022 19:46:07    2409867

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  ""They" have no plans to amalgamate Div 1 with D2 or to amalgamate Ds3 and 4 (thankfully)"
I know they don't, I'm just giving an example on how they could be redone to mirror championship and make it a bit fairer. there's not a hope they'll do it though

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 06/04/2022 09:22:50    2409881

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Loughduff Lad, the groups could be imbalanced. A ranking of 1 to 32 has no ambiguity like that."
I simply gave an example where you could split the divisions based on where teams finished the league in 2022. I think they look quite fair overall, prevents a closed shop, and gives weaker teams a chance to play stronger teams to bring them on. Is that what we want in this, a stronger game overall where we bring all teams along, rather than cutting them adrift or letting others yoyo?

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 06/04/2022 09:25:03    2409882

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