National Forum

Should The Leagues Be Re-Tiered?

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Replying To Rolo2010:  "I get where you are coming from. I've soured on Tailteann myself and not seeing any interest for it this year or next.

I can understand hurling but it has always been a closed shop and they can always use the excuse of hurling being a minor sport in most counties. Nobody cares about the Joe McDonagh Cup and Antrim dropping back down does them no good. But hurling folks on here will defend it. Interesting to note that it is always people from the top counties.

Moving back to 2 divisions in League would require the GAA and GPA for that matter to cap spending and even the playing field. I actually think it would save the provincials long term though."
I agree. Hurling people unlike their counterparts tell us how brillant hurling is. To be clear, hurling is brillant to watch despite the fact the ball is too light weigh but as a competition it is between Munster and a couple of teams from Leinster including Galway. Personally i want to see novel pairings, not Cork against Limerick episode three. As you say hurling is more of a close shop than football but football is catching up. Money is the elephant in the room. Plus there is a lot of groupthink at the top and in congress.

wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 1910 - 01/04/2022 19:13:31    2408966

Link

Replying To wicklowsupport:  "Over the last 10-15 years i've tried to remain open minded when thinking about the GAA but I've come to the conclusion that as an organisation they want as much of a close shop as possible. I'm not saying it is pre meditated, i just think it is old thinking-tradition-paracholism as oppose to some new thinking. We even have it at county board level in my own county. I think a new way needs to be found to have as many teams as poosible competing at as few a levels as possible. The hurling structure is a good example, no team has made a breakthrough to the top level since the introduction of the tiers and yet they are replicating it in football. Young players in Wicklow are not going to be enticed or motivated to play in the Tommy Murphy II competition against the teams they play in the league. Nor will this improve these players and bridge the gap. I can't speak for other counties but what Wicklow GAA need is people with expertise in administration, implementing good structures, who have a vision and producing some tangible result that will turn things around. Oh and to get rid of people who are in situ since the 70s."
I hear what you're saying. Basically at the top and bottom the same teams end up playing over and over. In divisions 2 and 3 there's a good bit of movement.

There have been a few good underage teams in Wicklow recently. Wicklow also has a decent hurling team a few years back. There needs to be a structure in place to bring these lads on.

You're right in saying if the structure isn't there the nothing will happen. That is regardless of any competition set up. Perhaps central council can do more to help.

I believe having the same spilt in league and championship is detrimental. (12 teams in top tier hurling = 12 team championship, Divisions 1 \ 2 football = championship). The league is the place to have the better lower tier playing the bottom of the higher tier.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 283 - 01/04/2022 20:54:13    2408983

Link

Replying To brianb:  "I hear what you're saying. Basically at the top and bottom the same teams end up playing over and over. In divisions 2 and 3 there's a good bit of movement.

There have been a few good underage teams in Wicklow recently. Wicklow also has a decent hurling team a few years back. There needs to be a structure in place to bring these lads on.

You're right in saying if the structure isn't there the nothing will happen. That is regardless of any competition set up. Perhaps central council can do more to help.

I believe having the same spilt in league and championship is detrimental. (12 teams in top tier hurling = 12 team championship, Divisions 1 \ 2 football = championship). The league is the place to have the better lower tier playing the bottom of the higher tier."
Divisions 2 and 3 by their nature have 2 teams promoted and 2 teams relegated. That naturally leads to a good bit of movement.
The latest RTÉ podcast was playing down the importance of winning the football division finals. It is the reason why I suggest that provincial winners, division winners and the Tailteann Cup winner are rewarded with 2 home games in green proposal group stage. It offers an incentive and rewards success on the pitch.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7846 - 02/04/2022 08:39:02    2408994

Link

Replying To wicklowsupport:  "I agree. Hurling people unlike their counterparts tell us how brillant hurling is. To be clear, hurling is brillant to watch despite the fact the ball is too light weigh but as a competition it is between Munster and a couple of teams from Leinster including Galway. Personally i want to see novel pairings, not Cork against Limerick episode three. As you say hurling is more of a close shop than football but football is catching up. Money is the elephant in the room. Plus there is a lot of groupthink at the top and in congress."
I find hurling to be a dull affair at times. It's already Limerick's to lose. Football isn't much better but a bit more open this year due to Dublin's decline. The new format will see most of the Div 3 and 4 teams never playing top teams outside of the odd provincial meeting and that's assuming they last. The problem with the GAA is that we have a cup as our main competition whereas most sports use a league or at least let everyone have a shot through qualifiers. Euros for example.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 739 - 02/04/2022 12:57:45    2409044

Link

I've seen this proposed by some journalists recently as well though I just don't like it. The football league system is fair and equitable at the minute unlike the hurling league which is the ultimate joke of a competition. What did that do for offaly hurling this year. The division they should have played in was league with antrim and laois in it and not what they ended up with. Limerick didn't have to try one jot in hurling league this year and that's just not right.
The teams in division 1 in football work bloody hard for what they get and shouldn't be punished for the work they put in. What ultimately lifts standards us good underage coaching feeding through to a committed senior team. If counties get that right there's no reason for plenty of them to be in division 1. It will be interesting to see how limerick football team keep progressing for example.

For the promoted teams to division 1 I think they could help a little by guaranteeing them 4 home games. That would have made a huge difference to kildare this year for example.

Ulsterchamps_32 (Donegal) - Posts: 693 - 02/04/2022 16:45:40    2409080

Link

Replying To Rolo2010:  "I find hurling to be a dull affair at times. It's already Limerick's to lose. Football isn't much better but a bit more open this year due to Dublin's decline. The new format will see most of the Div 3 and 4 teams never playing top teams outside of the odd provincial meeting and that's assuming they last. The problem with the GAA is that we have a cup as our main competition whereas most sports use a league or at least let everyone have a shot through qualifiers. Euros for example."
At least Division 3 and 4 counties have a route to take on a top team in their province. The McDonagh finalists are the only lower ranked hurling counties likely to get that possibility.
Sligo 4 v Roscommon. Leitrim 4 or London 4 v Galway or Mayo.
Antrim 3 or Cavan 4 v Donegal or Armagh. Fermanagh 3 v Tyrone.
Carlow 4 or Louth v Kildare. Wexford 4 or Offaly v Dublin. Wicklow 3 or Laois 3 v Meath. Westmeath 3 or Longford 3 will make the Leinster semi-final.
Clare 2/Limerick 3 v Tipperary 4/Waterford 4 for a Munster final spot.
Division 3 & 4 counties have fair possibilities. The Kerry hurlers are jealous!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7846 - 02/04/2022 16:54:27    2409084

Link

Replying To Rolo2010:  "I find hurling to be a dull affair at times. It's already Limerick's to lose. Football isn't much better but a bit more open this year due to Dublin's decline. The new format will see most of the Div 3 and 4 teams never playing top teams outside of the odd provincial meeting and that's assuming they last. The problem with the GAA is that we have a cup as our main competition whereas most sports use a league or at least let everyone have a shot through qualifiers. Euros for example."
Are you watching the Louth v Limerick division 3 footballfinal on tg4 now?

A junior b hurling match would be better.

The standard is atrocious and it's worse than a full affair.

Past hurler (None) - Posts: 726 - 02/04/2022 17:10:31    2409086

Link

Replying To Rolo2010:  "I find hurling to be a dull affair at times. It's already Limerick's to lose. Football isn't much better but a bit more open this year due to Dublin's decline. The new format will see most of the Div 3 and 4 teams never playing top teams outside of the odd provincial meeting and that's assuming they last. The problem with the GAA is that we have a cup as our main competition whereas most sports use a league or at least let everyone have a shot through qualifiers. Euros for example."
Hurling titles are shared amongst an elite bunch of counties. It is more of an exclusive club than football but it's not mentioned by hurling elites who dominate the airwaves. And yes the AL is Limerick to lose. With regard to your other point, counties don't need to win a trophy to have enjoyable success. In 2009 my own county have a great year, reaching the last 12 of the AL through the qualifiers and running Kildare close in a great game in portlaois. I think we won the Tommy Murphy Cup that year but it is our run through the qualifiers that people talk about, no one mentions the tommy murphy cup. The Tailteann cup in its current format is just rehash of past failed versions.

wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 1910 - 02/04/2022 17:25:26    2409090

Link

Replying To Past hurler:  "Are you watching the Louth v Limerick division 3 footballfinal on tg4 now?

A junior b hurling match would be better.

The standard is atrocious and it's worse than a full affair."
I am. It's turned into handball. Hurling is going the same way with this working through the lines thing.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 739 - 02/04/2022 17:39:51    2409094

Link

Replying To wicklowsupport:  "Hurling titles are shared amongst an elite bunch of counties. It is more of an exclusive club than football but it's not mentioned by hurling elites who dominate the airwaves. And yes the AL is Limerick to lose. With regard to your other point, counties don't need to win a trophy to have enjoyable success. In 2009 my own county have a great year, reaching the last 12 of the AL through the qualifiers and running Kildare close in a great game in portlaois. I think we won the Tommy Murphy Cup that year but it is our run through the qualifiers that people talk about, no one mentions the tommy murphy cup. The Tailteann cup in its current format is just rehash of past failed versions."
The gulf wasn't as big back then and that's what started this Tailteann Cup. The GAA hasn't addressed the core issue which is the creation of small number of elite counties.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 739 - 02/04/2022 17:48:44    2409095

Link

Replying To Rolo2010:  "The gulf wasn't as big back then and that's what started this Tailteann Cup. The GAA hasn't addressed the core issue which is the creation of small number of elite counties."
I agree wholeheartedly with you. The GAA are creating a competition and trying to convince themselves and some naive county boards that this will help weaker counties bridge the massive gap that has appeared. While at the same time allowing county boards with big sponsorship deal and lots of money to continue as is, which is only making the gap bigger.

wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 1910 - 02/04/2022 18:10:10    2409097

Link

Replying To wicklowsupport:  "Hurling titles are shared amongst an elite bunch of counties. It is more of an exclusive club than football but it's not mentioned by hurling elites who dominate the airwaves. And yes the AL is Limerick to lose. With regard to your other point, counties don't need to win a trophy to have enjoyable success. In 2009 my own county have a great year, reaching the last 12 of the AL through the qualifiers and running Kildare close in a great game in portlaois. I think we won the Tommy Murphy Cup that year but it is our run through the qualifiers that people talk about, no one mentions the tommy murphy cup. The Tailteann cup in its current format is just rehash of past failed versions."
The TMC didn't offer the winner a route to the top table. The Tailteann Cup winner will qualify for the Top 16. This is why the 16:16 split has been approved. People have seen Intermediate and Junior clubs have their day out. Division 3 & 4 counties will have an opportunity to win a championship at their level. Embrace it. The Kerry hurlers are seeking to embrace the rewards on offer in the Joe McDonagh Cup but the competition is fierce.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7846 - 02/04/2022 18:17:23    2409100

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "The TMC didn't offer the winner a route to the top table. The Tailteann Cup winner will qualify for the Top 16. This is why the 16:16 split has been approved. People have seen Intermediate and Junior clubs have their day out. Division 3 & 4 counties will have an opportunity to win a championship at their level. Embrace it. The Kerry hurlers are seeking to embrace the rewards on offer in the Joe McDonagh Cup but the competition is fierce."
The counties aren't embracing it which tells you everything you need to know about this competition. Only Offaly have tried to put a positive spin on it. I'd love to know who the GPA and GAA were talking to.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 739 - 02/04/2022 18:22:31    2409103

Link

Replying To Rolo2010:  "The counties aren't embracing it which tells you everything you need to know about this competition. Only Offaly have tried to put a positive spin on it. I'd love to know who the GPA and GAA were talking to."
I mean this year's edition is stupid and is the remnants of John Horan wanting a legacy as president.

The 2023 model has potential, I really do believe that, although it will need buy in. The players were very in favour of this change, gives me optimism.

The place in the top tier, especially given that the top tier has a group stage, adds a real incentive to do well in it.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 02/04/2022 19:28:59    2409122

Link

Replying To Rolo2010:  "The counties aren't embracing it which tells you everything you need to know about this competition. Only Offaly have tried to put a positive spin on it. I'd love to know who the GPA and GAA were talking to."
If the Tailteann Cup format was used for hurling, I would want to see Kerry winning the Tailteann Hurling Cup, to advance to the Top 16 in the following year.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7846 - 02/04/2022 19:53:53    2409126

Link

I am really looking forward to the TC. Great opportunity for Leitrim to develop work with a new management team. Instead of the fantasy of competing with a depleted team in the qualifiers of the Sam Maguire.

Backheel (Leitrim) - Posts: 133 - 03/04/2022 13:46:42    2409199

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "I mean this year's edition is stupid and is the remnants of John Horan wanting a legacy as president.

The 2023 model has potential, I really do believe that, although it will need buy in. The players were very in favour of this change, gives me optimism.

The place in the top tier, especially given that the top tier has a group stage, adds a real incentive to do well in it."
It won't last if there's no public buy in.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 739 - 03/04/2022 14:03:54    2409203

Link

Replying To Backheel:  "I am really looking forward to the TC. Great opportunity for Leitrim to develop work with a new management team. Instead of the fantasy of competing with a depleted team in the qualifiers of the Sam Maguire."
Leitrim had a decent league. Beating Tipperary was a good result. The London result sadly dented your promotion push. Leitrim and Sligo both have a tough Connaught semi-final on the cards. It's perfectly reasonable, as you say, to utilise the Tailteann Cup as part of your development.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7846 - 03/04/2022 14:56:09    2409216

Link

Replying To Rolo2010:  "It won't last if there's no public buy in."
What constitutes public buy in? Will a Dub or Donegal fan care about it. No probably not.

Will I as an Antrim fan care about it, yes definitely, certainly if we're reaching the latter stages.

I can see a situation where a fan from say Cork or Meath wouldn't be engaged with it if they found themselves down there. So that is a potential problem.

You'd worry too about how engaged the players of those counties would be particularly if they are in division 2 in the following season and have that as a qualifying route available to them.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 03/04/2022 16:11:54    2409259

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "What constitutes public buy in? Will a Dub or Donegal fan care about it. No probably not.

Will I as an Antrim fan care about it, yes definitely, certainly if we're reaching the latter stages.

I can see a situation where a fan from say Cork or Meath wouldn't be engaged with it if they found themselves down there. So that is a potential problem.

You'd worry too about how engaged the players of those counties would be particularly if they are in division 2 in the following season and have that as a qualifying route available to them."
How many Antrim fans will care about it? The public at large won't care about a second rate competition and they make up the majority of viewers. How long will players tolerate playing in front of small crowds before deciding to head off to America.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 739 - 03/04/2022 16:17:33    2409261

Link