National Forum

Should The Leagues Be Re-Tiered?

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The Football League has dominated the headlines because of it's competitive nature. Teams accept relegation and get on with it. The league ladder is perfectly fair. Everyone earns their place on merit. Anyone of 5 teams could have been relegated from Division 1 on the final day, including the All-Ireland champions. Now that's competitive!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7821 - 31/03/2022 17:29:39    2408748

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Replying To MachaireConnacht:  "That makes no sense, spending longer in the second tier will enable you to compete with the top teams better than playing the top teams every second year?

I don't think it has done Roscommon any harm. Two Connacht titles and back to back qualification for Super 8's was an achievement. Absolutley it's not ideal getting relegated but I prefer us having been up and down in Div than if we had we had been stuck in Div 2 the past six years. There hasn't been much in it in staying up some of those years. Roscommon might not have progressed as fast as fans would like but having played in Div and Super 8's has made Roscommon more game smart and has definitley led to improvements in s and c. It wasn't until they started playing the top teams that they realised how much they needed to catch up. I think our biggest failure was 2021 where tactical regression led to defeat against a very beatable Armagh team at that time."
They got beaten out the gate in the super eights, humiliated even. What use is that to them?

I didn't say about spending more time in the second tier, I said the current way they are up and down every second year is no good to them. If the divisions were expanded and cut to three then they might have a better chance of staying in the top tier once promoted.

Leitrim_12 (USA) - Posts: 207 - 31/03/2022 18:45:55    2408760

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "That's exactly it. Your point is very interesting, should it be purely competitive or some development aspect. At the moment, with the linking of the championship to a 4 Division League, it's being made competitive only. And you widen the gap. Only a handful of teams will ever bridge the gap, between promotion to Div 2, or winning the Tailteann Cup. They'll get Sam for 1 season, and will likely yoyo back down, so what is it really doing? Meanwhile the top teams stretch further ahead, while those adrift in Div 4 are not getting any exposure to better teams. The development of teams, and the exposure to different teams will be lost. Most will end up playing the same counties over and over"
A lot of the teams this would help are going to benefit from the new championship structure.

Teams like Galway and Roscommon get a minimum of 3 Sam Maguire games each and with the last 12 round they'll get 4 and 5 championship games often enough.

They also get their provincial championships but the jury is probably still out on how much edge there will be to those games.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 01/04/2022 08:50:18    2408782

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "So now that the League group games have finished for this year, and promotion and relegation has been sorted, should we think about re-Tiering the Leagues seeing as they will be tied into Championship even more from next year?

Going back to Divisions 1a and 1b, and 2a and 2b might make a little more sense if we look at how they are splitting the Championships post provincial into 16 for Sam Maguire, and 16 for Tailteann Cup. This essentially gives every team a chance to get into the Top 16 through the League every year. You could have playoffs between the bottom 4 sides in Division 1 to decide relegation, and the top 4 sides in Division 2 to decide promotion to replace them. You'd get your 2 groups of 16 from there and everyone has a chance to get into it. You could even stipulate that the Division 2 League final winner is guaranteed a place, as right now they're not. At the moment, the 2 promoted teams ranked 15 and 16 can still lose out if a Division 3 or 4 team makes their provincial final. Just a thought anyway..."
I think this is a great idea given we're now effectively having a top 16 and bottom 16 in the championship. Division 1 is in a completely different stratosphere to the rest of the divisions and it definitely widens the gap even more come championship. Division 4 is also just the absolute pits of a competition, It's nearly the same teams playing each other every year. Whichever teams come down from division 3 usually bounce straight back up and I know for a fact it's turned some players off committing in Wicklow anyway.

If you started the year with every team technically being in with a chance of qualifying for Sam then I think you would have a much more competitive league. Imagine being a footballer for Wicklow next year knowing you're going back to playing against Leitrim, Waterford, Wexford, London and Carlow again, and now, regardless of how you do in the league, you will most likely be playing them again in the championship.

Victorious87 (Wicklow) - Posts: 597 - 01/04/2022 09:11:08    2408785

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Replying To Victorious87:  "I think this is a great idea given we're now effectively having a top 16 and bottom 16 in the championship. Division 1 is in a completely different stratosphere to the rest of the divisions and it definitely widens the gap even more come championship. Division 4 is also just the absolute pits of a competition, It's nearly the same teams playing each other every year. Whichever teams come down from division 3 usually bounce straight back up and I know for a fact it's turned some players off committing in Wicklow anyway.

If you started the year with every team technically being in with a chance of qualifying for Sam then I think you would have a much more competitive league. Imagine being a footballer for Wicklow next year knowing you're going back to playing against Leitrim, Waterford, Wexford, London and Carlow again, and now, regardless of how you do in the league, you will most likely be playing them again in the championship."
Thats an interesting viewpoint. Perhaps an ideal compromise here is to have Division 1, 2, 3A and 3B. That way at least there'd be massive league carrot to teams like Wicklow who could and should be more competitive.

I'd also be in favour of more fluid promotion / relegation; 3 up & down each year - maybe a playoff between #6 & #3 in adjacent divisions.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 278 - 01/04/2022 10:35:19    2408795

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Replying To brianb:  "Thats an interesting viewpoint. Perhaps an ideal compromise here is to have Division 1, 2, 3A and 3B. That way at least there'd be massive league carrot to teams like Wicklow who could and should be more competitive.

I'd also be in favour of more fluid promotion / relegation; 3 up & down each year - maybe a playoff between #6 & #3 in adjacent divisions."
You're still closing off the shop at Division 1, and all you'll get is the same old teams going between the 2 Division 3's and Division 2. Not really changing much where it matters.

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2379 - 01/04/2022 11:23:40    2408813

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Replying To Whammo86:  "A lot of the teams this would help are going to benefit from the new championship structure.

Teams like Galway and Roscommon get a minimum of 3 Sam Maguire games each and with the last 12 round they'll get 4 and 5 championship games often enough.

They also get their provincial championships but the jury is probably still out on how much edge there will be to those games."
Antrim and Cavan will have an edge. The winner taking on Donegal or Armagh will have an edge. It's an interesting dynamic of a qualified team taking on an opponent in the last chance saloon.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7821 - 01/04/2022 11:58:54    2408829

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Antrim and Cavan will have an edge. The winner taking on Donegal or Armagh will have an edge. It's an interesting dynamic of a qualified team taking on an opponent in the last chance saloon."
Are you under some illusion that they wouldn't have an edge anyway with an Ulster final at stake, regardless of avoiding a Tailteann Cup? Come on now...

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2379 - 01/04/2022 13:03:57    2408856

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Replying To kentuckytucky:  "They got beaten out the gate in the super eights, humiliated even. What use is that to them?

I didn't say about spending more time in the second tier, I said the current way they are up and down every second year is no good to them. If the divisions were expanded and cut to three then they might have a better chance of staying in the top tier once promoted."
They were in the first year but improved in the second year. Very close to beating Tyrone in the Hyde, ok lost well to Dublin but so did most other teams and bet Cork. So there was progress and benefit from playing in the top tier.

MachaireConnacht (Roscommon) - Posts: 771 - 01/04/2022 13:48:32    2408870

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "You're still closing off the shop at Division 1, and all you'll get is the same old teams going between the 2 Division 3's and Division 2. Not really changing much where it matters."
Not if we move to a 3 up / 3 down - if you want to see a closed shop look at the hurling league.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 278 - 01/04/2022 13:53:31    2408872

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "Are you under some illusion that they wouldn't have an edge anyway with an Ulster final at stake, regardless of avoiding a Tailteann Cup? Come on now..."
It's an added edge when progress to the qualifiers is dependent on the result.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7821 - 01/04/2022 13:57:09    2408875

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Replying To legendzxix:  "It's an added edge when progress to the qualifiers is dependent on the result."
Hardly added. Ulster is already huge up here, so we don't need you to come in and tell us avoiding a Tailteann Cup is adding something. It would honestly be the last thing on our mind if we won a semi, it's be all about the final only

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2379 - 01/04/2022 14:08:16    2408882

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "Hardly added. Ulster is already huge up here, so we don't need you to come in and tell us avoiding a Tailteann Cup is adding something. It would honestly be the last thing on our mind if we won a semi, it's be all about the final only"
Are you saying that Cavan or Antrim will be unaware that defeat in the quarter-final or semi-final will be knocking them out of the All-Ireland championship?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7821 - 01/04/2022 14:17:42    2408884

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Replying To brianb:  "Not if we move to a 3 up / 3 down - if you want to see a closed shop look at the hurling league."
Over the last 10-15 years i've tried to remain open minded when thinking about the GAA but I've come to the conclusion that as an organisation they want as much of a close shop as possible. I'm not saying it is pre meditated, i just think it is old thinking-tradition-paracholism as oppose to some new thinking. We even have it at county board level in my own county. I think a new way needs to be found to have as many teams as poosible competing at as few a levels as possible. The hurling structure is a good example, no team has made a breakthrough to the top level since the introduction of the tiers and yet they are replicating it in football. Young players in Wicklow are not going to be enticed or motivated to play in the Tommy Murphy II competition against the teams they play in the league. Nor will this improve these players and bridge the gap. I can't speak for other counties but what Wicklow GAA need is people with expertise in administration, implementing good structures, who have a vision and producing some tangible result that will turn things around. Oh and to get rid of people who are in situ since the 70s.

wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 1909 - 01/04/2022 14:19:54    2408885

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Are you saying that Cavan or Antrim will be unaware that defeat in the quarter-final or semi-final will be knocking them out of the All-Ireland championship?"
No, and don't act silly. I'm just saying that the main focus will be Ulster and a potential final, not the qualifiers or a Tailteann Cup. We always know that getting knocked out of a province means that teams are usually not as bothered anymore. I can guarantee you the driving factor will be a final, not avoiding the Tailteann Cup. that's a bonus sure, but they won't be thinking it

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2379 - 01/04/2022 15:15:57    2408908

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Replying To wicklowsupport:  "Over the last 10-15 years i've tried to remain open minded when thinking about the GAA but I've come to the conclusion that as an organisation they want as much of a close shop as possible. I'm not saying it is pre meditated, i just think it is old thinking-tradition-paracholism as oppose to some new thinking. We even have it at county board level in my own county. I think a new way needs to be found to have as many teams as poosible competing at as few a levels as possible. The hurling structure is a good example, no team has made a breakthrough to the top level since the introduction of the tiers and yet they are replicating it in football. Young players in Wicklow are not going to be enticed or motivated to play in the Tommy Murphy II competition against the teams they play in the league. Nor will this improve these players and bridge the gap. I can't speak for other counties but what Wicklow GAA need is people with expertise in administration, implementing good structures, who have a vision and producing some tangible result that will turn things around. Oh and to get rid of people who are in situ since the 70s."
I don't know, I genuinely think this is progress.

Wicklow will play 3 games of which 2 should be against teams in division 3.

A team like Wicklow should be getting themselves out of the group stage most years and getting winnable fixtures in the last 12 and quarterfinals.

Getting to a semifinal going through the last 12 route would see them getting 6 fixtures against 3 or 4 division 3 teams and at the end of the day that would actually above Wicklow's recent record.

They'd also have a Leinster championship campaign. If they win their preliminary round they get a game against the seeds.

There's plenty in the structure to help a side like Wicklow up their level if they find the internal drive.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 01/04/2022 15:43:44    2408920

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Replying To wicklowsupport:  "Over the last 10-15 years i've tried to remain open minded when thinking about the GAA but I've come to the conclusion that as an organisation they want as much of a close shop as possible. I'm not saying it is pre meditated, i just think it is old thinking-tradition-paracholism as oppose to some new thinking. We even have it at county board level in my own county. I think a new way needs to be found to have as many teams as poosible competing at as few a levels as possible. The hurling structure is a good example, no team has made a breakthrough to the top level since the introduction of the tiers and yet they are replicating it in football. Young players in Wicklow are not going to be enticed or motivated to play in the Tommy Murphy II competition against the teams they play in the league. Nor will this improve these players and bridge the gap. I can't speak for other counties but what Wicklow GAA need is people with expertise in administration, implementing good structures, who have a vision and producing some tangible result that will turn things around. Oh and to get rid of people who are in situ since the 70s."
I get where you are coming from. I've soured on Tailteann myself and not seeing any interest for it this year or next.

I can understand hurling but it has always been a closed shop and they can always use the excuse of hurling being a minor sport in most counties. Nobody cares about the Joe McDonagh Cup and Antrim dropping back down does them no good. But hurling folks on here will defend it. Interesting to note that it is always people from the top counties.

Moving back to 2 divisions in League would require the GAA and GPA for that matter to cap spending and even the playing field. I actually think it would save the provincials long term though.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 01/04/2022 16:01:21    2408928

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Replying To wicklowsupport:  "Over the last 10-15 years i've tried to remain open minded when thinking about the GAA but I've come to the conclusion that as an organisation they want as much of a close shop as possible. I'm not saying it is pre meditated, i just think it is old thinking-tradition-paracholism as oppose to some new thinking. We even have it at county board level in my own county. I think a new way needs to be found to have as many teams as poosible competing at as few a levels as possible. The hurling structure is a good example, no team has made a breakthrough to the top level since the introduction of the tiers and yet they are replicating it in football. Young players in Wicklow are not going to be enticed or motivated to play in the Tommy Murphy II competition against the teams they play in the league. Nor will this improve these players and bridge the gap. I can't speak for other counties but what Wicklow GAA need is people with expertise in administration, implementing good structures, who have a vision and producing some tangible result that will turn things around. Oh and to get rid of people who are in situ since the 70s."
If the GAA was serious about true reform they'd have scrapped the provincial championships, and introduced a league system championship and/or a world cup style one with groups of four progressing on to knock outs etc where everyone gets an equal chance. What they do want is the 'weaker' teams shunted off into a new teacup competition and the 'elite', when you look at some of the 16 that will be in that grouping means that is a very loose term indeed. This allows them to package off a nicer looking championship to the tv stations. Weaker teams wouldn't be shown in provincial games anyway at the best of times so that problem is done for them.

The elephants in the room are the provincial boards, and the question is, are they really necessary?

Leitrim_12 (USA) - Posts: 207 - 01/04/2022 16:12:13    2408937

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Replying To brianb:  "Not if we move to a 3 up / 3 down - if you want to see a closed shop look at the hurling league."
Hurling is a closed shop alright. I'd like a lower division runner-up to take on the 5th place team from the division above.
In football, 2 out of 8 teams being relegated is fair. All the teams are getting on with it regardless. Your league status is earned on merit. Derry were unlucky to miss out on promotion this year. I guess they'll be eyeing Kildare as their main rival next year as they seek to plot a course back to Division 1.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7821 - 01/04/2022 17:13:23    2408951

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I don't know, I genuinely think this is progress.

Wicklow will play 3 games of which 2 should be against teams in division 3.

A team like Wicklow should be getting themselves out of the group stage most years and getting winnable fixtures in the last 12 and quarterfinals.

Getting to a semifinal going through the last 12 route would see them getting 6 fixtures against 3 or 4 division 3 teams and at the end of the day that would actually above Wicklow's recent record.

They'd also have a Leinster championship campaign. If they win their preliminary round they get a game against the seeds.

There's plenty in the structure to help a side like Wicklow up their level if they find the internal drive."
In all honesty i don't think as a county that we can complain despite my personal reservations. Afterall our county board proposed and was one of the cheerleaders for the second tier competition. Internally i think we are a bit of a mess. Two wins over two Division 3 campaigns. Failure to stay in a mediocre Division 3. Managers leaving without any real reasoning. On our third different managment team in 2 years. We have some promising young players but i would fear that they too will become disillusioned; I live in hope that i might be reading it wrong.

wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 1909 - 01/04/2022 19:04:37    2408965

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