National Forum

Should The Leagues Be Re-Tiered?

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I do get where you're coming from with this.

4 divisions of 8 isn't great for qualifying for this competition.

Division 1 teams practically guaranteed, the promoted teams from division 3 not even guaranteed a place.
Division 4 teams cut a bit adrift.

Division 2 is the only division where there's that qualification battle properly happening."
Yeah that's my point, it's the teams in the middle who are battling, those at teh top are safe, those at the bottom are adrift.

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2382 - 31/03/2022 10:12:26    2408561

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Replying To DuhallowRed:  "It's working fine the way it is"
Is it though? It's not working for the teams adrift in Division 4, and it's looking a closed shop for those in Division 1. So who is it working fine for?

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2382 - 31/03/2022 10:13:21    2408562

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Replying To anotheralias:  "Absolutely not. The leagues are really good at the minute with high levels of competitiveness. Restructuring would dilute this competitiveness.
The one division this year that was a bit lop sided this year was division 2 with Derry, Galway and Roscommon beating all the others ( exception of Ros v Clare draw) . If the other 5 teams in Div 2 cant put it up to the top 3 above, then whats the value of them playing Kerry, Tyrone, Mayo?
The bottom line is the current structure provides the best chance of competitive games , which is the best way to improve. Playing teams who are vastly superior will not do anything for any team. Teams try to develop in their own tier and try to become the best at that level, then progress to the next."
Would it dilute it, or increase it? You have competitiveness in very select groupings, but the gap between these are quite large I would say. Minimising that gap would expose more teams to that competitiveness and bring teams on more.; The value of those teams toward the bottom of Division 2 is that playing the tope teams will bring them on. And if they're still not good enough, they can still get relegated down. My idea just gives teams a chance to compete with teh best, and try close that gap. And if they're not good enough, they'll go down. But it would at least give more teams a chance to pit themselves and learn from teh top teams. It's certainly more reasonable that the system there is now where 1 Division 1 and 4 go nowhere, with the only real movement between 2 and 3.

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2382 - 31/03/2022 10:18:24    2408563

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The current system is excellent . We already have a championship where weaker teams get a shot ( albeit only 1 shot from this year on) to ply their trade against the top teams. Lets not try to create a league that creates even more mis matched games. I dont subscribe to the argument that Div 1 and Di v 4 have nowhere to go. Div 1 can go down and obviously play for league final ( Kerry were the only team with nothing to play for in Round 7 this year). Div 4 teams can go up. Yes I do agree that the lower teams in Div 4 have nothing to play for in the latter rounds of the league and this may need to be reviewed , but this situation would be even more exacerbated if you had 16 teams in the bottom tier in a 2A + 2B. And how can you say that Division 1 is a closed shop or a pulled up ladder when 25% of the teams get relegated each year. I really hope that the league structure is not altered too much.

anotheralias (Galway) - Posts: 840 - 31/03/2022 10:34:58    2408570

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "Is it though? It's not working for the teams adrift in Division 4, and it's looking a closed shop for those in Division 1. So who is it working fine for?"
Teams are in Division 4 for a reason.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1415 - 31/03/2022 11:06:56    2408581

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Replying To anotheralias:  "Absolutely not. The leagues are really good at the minute with high levels of competitiveness. Restructuring would dilute this competitiveness.
The one division this year that was a bit lop sided this year was division 2 with Derry, Galway and Roscommon beating all the others ( exception of Ros v Clare draw) . If the other 5 teams in Div 2 cant put it up to the top 3 above, then whats the value of them playing Kerry, Tyrone, Mayo?
The bottom line is the current structure provides the best chance of competitive games , which is the best way to improve. Playing teams who are vastly superior will not do anything for any team. Teams try to develop in their own tier and try to become the best at that level, then progress to the next."
There will be a few inevitable hidings for teams from low down the standards from top standard teams, absolutely. And they'll hurt a lot. But they'll also win some against similar standards and hopefully learn and get competitive against the next division standard and progress their standard of football. Some counties won't progress without encouragement and good coaching. I wasn't such a fan of the backdoor at the start but Fermanagh were very close to getting to an All Ireland Final, Wexford and Tipp, two hurling counties, got to semi finals in the backdoor system. Sligo and Limerick did well some seasons too. Probably forgetting a few other counties there too. What could they have achieved with sustaining that level for a few years getting good games in the league striving to improve their standards more? I'm cynical about the two small Ireland trophies, selling live TV 'competitive' games like it's more important than improving the standard of football from top to bottom. Let's give the new system at least a go for a few years see how it does and hopefully so called weaker counties don't see a drop off in interest in county teams from players and supporters.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7344 - 31/03/2022 11:18:31    2408585

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The Football League and the Hurling Provincial Round Robin have a majority approval.
The Football Championship and the Hurling League are still looking for the right formula.
The Green Proposal is a step in the right direction for football.
Hurling needs to return to Divisions 1A and 1B on a metric system. Top 2 teams in all hurling divisions into their Division final. Lower division winners of 1B etc. should be promoted. The bottom team in all divisions should be automatically relegated.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7840 - 31/03/2022 11:21:55    2408588

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Teams are in Division 4 for a reason."
Yes. They are. But what are we going to do about that? You're making my point for me. Are we ever going to help them get better when we keep them down there and don't expose them to any decent grade above them regularly?

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2382 - 31/03/2022 11:33:47    2408596

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "Yes. They are. But what are we going to do about that? You're making my point for me. Are we ever going to help them get better when we keep them down there and don't expose them to any decent grade above them regularly?"
If a Division 4 county wins the Tailteann Cup, they'll be in the Top 16 in the following year. An ambitious Division 4 county will be targeting getting to Division 3 and winning the Tailteann Cup. Division 3 then can be the platform to follow in the footsteps of Limerick and get to Division 2. Clare have established themselves in Division 2. That reward is there for all to achieve.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7840 - 31/03/2022 11:40:42    2408600

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Interesting topic. The football league is quite a good competition at the moment; but the top teams playing the top teams over and over - in both league and championship will probably lead to a growing gap where football becomes more like hurling in terms of competitiveness.

The hurling top division is pretty much a closed shop; the football top division is becoming that way too.

So it depends - is the league there as a purely competitive competition or should it have a development aspect to it as well?

Playing games against the top teams can show where improvements can be made; can show how to better mark players; how to find a little bit of space against the top players; marginal improvements that wouldn't be seen overnight but would gradually bring up standards across the board. Both football and hurling leagues should be restructured to give a broader experience of games to teams.

The old Divisions 1 & 2 with A & B structure works best for the development aspect but it sacrifices some of the competitive games seen in Division 1 for this. Its a trade off which I feel would be worth it. Likewise moving hurling leagues to Divisions 1,2,3 & 4 would do the same for development.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 279 - 31/03/2022 12:01:51    2408612

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Replying To legendzxix:  "If a Division 4 county wins the Tailteann Cup, they'll be in the Top 16 in the following year. An ambitious Division 4 county will be targeting getting to Division 3 and winning the Tailteann Cup. Division 3 then can be the platform to follow in the footsteps of Limerick and get to Division 2. Clare have established themselves in Division 2. That reward is there for all to achieve."
Come on, you can't really believe that about the Tailteann Cup, can you? It's a secondary competition, and will be treated as so by the GAA, the media, the teams, the coverage of it, and the teams. The setup is for the big teams, and it wants to keep it that way. Either way, I'm more on about the teams in the centre who will be the yoyo teams. this system does not help, and closes things off at the top as they can play their thing without ever being at risk of going down. Do we not want a competitive competition with more than a handful of teams? Because it those teams who we need to bring along. A 2 tier system at least regularly exposes Division 2/3 teams to Division 1 teams, and Division 4 teams to Division 2/3 teams. The 4 divisions and 2 tier championship will only widen the gap.

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2382 - 31/03/2022 12:32:15    2408636

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Replying To brianb:  "Interesting topic. The football league is quite a good competition at the moment; but the top teams playing the top teams over and over - in both league and championship will probably lead to a growing gap where football becomes more like hurling in terms of competitiveness.

The hurling top division is pretty much a closed shop; the football top division is becoming that way too.

So it depends - is the league there as a purely competitive competition or should it have a development aspect to it as well?

Playing games against the top teams can show where improvements can be made; can show how to better mark players; how to find a little bit of space against the top players; marginal improvements that wouldn't be seen overnight but would gradually bring up standards across the board. Both football and hurling leagues should be restructured to give a broader experience of games to teams.

The old Divisions 1 & 2 with A & B structure works best for the development aspect but it sacrifices some of the competitive games seen in Division 1 for this. Its a trade off which I feel would be worth it. Likewise moving hurling leagues to Divisions 1,2,3 & 4 would do the same for development."
That's exactly it. Your point is very interesting, should it be purely competitive or some development aspect. At the moment, with the linking of the championship to a 4 Division League, it's being made competitive only. And you widen the gap. Only a handful of teams will ever bridge the gap, between promotion to Div 2, or winning the Tailteann Cup. They'll get Sam for 1 season, and will likely yoyo back down, so what is it really doing? Meanwhile the top teams stretch further ahead, while those adrift in Div 4 are not getting any exposure to better teams. The development of teams, and the exposure to different teams will be lost. Most will end up playing the same counties over and over

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2382 - 31/03/2022 12:39:36    2408638

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In 2021, Mayo gained promotion to Division 1.
Tyrone promoted in 2016. Donegal 2019 and Dublin have been relegated this year. There has been a fair turnover. In football teams get on with it after relegation.
In hurling, managers in 1A complained that the division was too competitive though Division 1B was providing a competitive platform!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7840 - 31/03/2022 12:55:47    2408644

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Teams are in Division 4 for a reason."
There isn't much development for a team like Roscommon getting constantly relegated from div 1 either, it doesn't benefit them in a development sense at all. They are a mid tier team who aren't good enough to be in top eight, but perhaps if there was a top 12 or 10 they might have a better chance

Leitrim_12 (USA) - Posts: 207 - 31/03/2022 13:46:37    2408660

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "So now that the League group games have finished for this year, and promotion and relegation has been sorted, should we think about re-Tiering the Leagues seeing as they will be tied into Championship even more from next year?

Going back to Divisions 1a and 1b, and 2a and 2b might make a little more sense if we look at how they are splitting the Championships post provincial into 16 for Sam Maguire, and 16 for Tailteann Cup. This essentially gives every team a chance to get into the Top 16 through the League every year. You could have playoffs between the bottom 4 sides in Division 1 to decide relegation, and the top 4 sides in Division 2 to decide promotion to replace them. You'd get your 2 groups of 16 from there and everyone has a chance to get into it. You could even stipulate that the Division 2 League final winner is guaranteed a place, as right now they're not. At the moment, the 2 promoted teams ranked 15 and 16 can still lose out if a Division 3 or 4 team makes their provincial final. Just a thought anyway..."
Only a Cavan man could propose such an idiotic idea. We have competitive games in all Divisions. Are you looking a handy way to get Cavan back to Division 1?

seamusorinn (USA) - Posts: 295 - 31/03/2022 14:24:51    2408672

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Replying To seamusorinn:  "Only a Cavan man could propose such an idiotic idea. We have competitive games in all Divisions. Are you looking a handy way to get Cavan back to Division 1?"
Who mentioned Cavan? I had an idea (one that the GAA had before), that ties up with what they're trying to do with Championship. Feel free to ignore it if you like, I hardly think it's idiotic, unlike your comment.

And either way, it's not affecting Cavan next year as we'll be in Division 3, or what would be the bottom tier of what I'm proposing. It would take time to put this in anyway. So don't get personal when I was just floating something, something that many here have already said they see merit in...

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2382 - 31/03/2022 14:30:05    2408675

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Replying To seamusorinn:  "Only a Cavan man could propose such an idiotic idea. We have competitive games in all Divisions. Are you looking a handy way to get Cavan back to Division 1?"
Cavan, should they beat Antrim, will have a last chance saloon clash with Donegal or Armagh. Embrace the challenge.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7840 - 31/03/2022 14:33:30    2408678

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Replying To kentuckytucky:  "There isn't much development for a team like Roscommon getting constantly relegated from div 1 either, it doesn't benefit them in a development sense at all. They are a mid tier team who aren't good enough to be in top eight, but perhaps if there was a top 12 or 10 they might have a better chance"
Better chance of what?

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1415 - 31/03/2022 14:54:18    2408687

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Better chance of what?"
Of staying in the top tier longer than a year as they currently are doing.

Leitrim_12 (USA) - Posts: 207 - 31/03/2022 15:53:21    2408707

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Replying To kentuckytucky:  "Of staying in the top tier longer than a year as they currently are doing."
That makes no sense, spending longer in the second tier will enable you to compete with the top teams better than playing the top teams every second year?

I don't think it has done Roscommon any harm. Two Connacht titles and back to back qualification for Super 8's was an achievement. Absolutley it's not ideal getting relegated but I prefer us having been up and down in Div than if we had we had been stuck in Div 2 the past six years. There hasn't been much in it in staying up some of those years. Roscommon might not have progressed as fast as fans would like but having played in Div and Super 8's has made Roscommon more game smart and has definitley led to improvements in s and c. It wasn't until they started playing the top teams that they realised how much they needed to catch up. I think our biggest failure was 2021 where tactical regression led to defeat against a very beatable Armagh team at that time.

MachaireConnacht (Roscommon) - Posts: 784 - 31/03/2022 16:25:23    2408722

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