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Football Super 16 For 2023 Onwards

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Playing at your level is not an issue. The Junior/intermediate/senior type format works well at many levels in the GAA.

The Tailteann cup is not pre-defined. You are going to have teams playing in it that qualified through poor performance. Hence the negativity! Teams are trying to avoid it. This makes it a plate/shield/All-Ireland B or what ever.

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 09/03/2022 12:15:44    2404595

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Replying To The_Fridge:  "Yeah that's true to be fair. Listen im willing to see how it goes. Im just not that confident it will be a success. I hope it does and will be happy to be proven wrong."
Yeah look, I'm hopeful that it will be a success but completely understand why people are sceptical of it given previous attempts at tiering the championship have been poor.

I think the design of this attempt is a lot better than what has come before.

Importantly it is an improvement on the top championship.

A good division 2 team could see themselves aiming for quarterfinals and semifinals in this competition and could need to play 5 or 6 games against division 1 and 2 level teams to get there at a good time of year. That's going to bring teams on. It's a competition worth being in.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 09/03/2022 12:22:44    2404597

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Replying To Greenfield:  "Works the other way too.
Teams who qualify through the league will have no reason to take the provincial competition seriously so they could end up being lob sided wastes of time.
Eg this year you could easily see Mayo, Galway and Roscommon qualified through the league. Why would they then risk players in a meaningless provincial campaign? So Sligo, Leitrim or london could sneak through to a Connacht final and there's 5 championship slots gone.
Involving the provincials in any shape skews the whole thing and makes it a bit of a sham."
Yeah I don't like the Provincial aspect of it either. Seems like just a necessary evil to get it through though.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 09/03/2022 12:45:00    2404603

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Any two tier system should simply be based on league standings alone. The provincial system makes no sense, having teams of all different standard play in 4 different championships with a different number of teams in each is not a way to determine championship placings.

PK57 (Louth) - Posts: 1656 - 09/03/2022 13:44:04    2404615

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Replying To PK57:  "Any two tier system should simply be based on league standings alone. The provincial system makes no sense, having teams of all different standard play in 4 different championships with a different number of teams in each is not a way to determine championship placings."
A tiered competition should just be its own thing. The LGFA have a league followed by a championship. Cut the provincial link and use the League to seed the groups of 4. Then have promotion and relegation like in the club championships. I'd be interested to see the model from Cavan and Donegal trialled. All 16 in one league table. Each county plays 4 games against a mix of teams and then the top 8 go into the QFs.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 739 - 09/03/2022 16:40:42    2404654

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Provincials need to go. Two tiers of 16 one up one down. And if the gaps get to big go to 3 tiers 12, 12 and the rest junior.

Meath women won the intermediate and then the senior the following year. So it can be done.

skirge7 (UK) - Posts: 251 - 09/03/2022 17:31:43    2404663

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Replying To Greenfield:  "Works the other way too.
Teams who qualify through the league will have no reason to take the provincial competition seriously so they could end up being lob sided wastes of time.
Eg this year you could easily see Mayo, Galway and Roscommon qualified through the league. Why would they then risk players in a meaningless provincial campaign? So Sligo, Leitrim or london could sneak through to a Connacht final and there's 5 championship slots gone.
Involving the provincials in any shape skews the whole thing and makes it a bit of a sham."
Provincial winners are to be the top seeds. There has to be meaningful reward for being top seeds.
2 home games suggestion:
1. Provincial winners awarded 2 home games.
2. Division 1 winner, Division 2 winner, Division 3 winner (should they qualify, not guaranteed) and Tailteann Cup winner should also be awarded 2 home games.
3. If any of the Division or Tailteann winners wins their province, or Division 3 winner has not qualified, a Seed 2 team can benefit from the vacant home advantage spot(s)
Seeds 1 and 2 with 2 home games:
1* 2, 3
2* 3, 4
3- 4
4- 1
Seeds 1 and 3 with 2 home games:
1* 2, 3
2- 4
3* 2, 4
4- 1
Seeds 1 and 4 with 2 home games:
1* 2, 3
2- 3
3- 4
4* 1, 2
A Tailteann Cup winner with 2 home games will give them 2 high

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 09/03/2022 17:48:29    2404667

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Replying To Greenfield:  "Works the other way too.
Teams who qualify through the league will have no reason to take the provincial competition seriously so they could end up being lob sided wastes of time.
Eg this year you could easily see Mayo, Galway and Roscommon qualified through the league. Why would they then risk players in a meaningless provincial campaign? So Sligo, Leitrim or london could sneak through to a Connacht final and there's 5 championship slots gone.
Involving the provincials in any shape skews the whole thing and makes it a bit of a sham."
Provincial winners are to be the top seeds. There has to be meaningful reward for being top seeds.
2 home games suggestion:
1. Provincial winners awarded 2 home games.
2. Division 1 winner, Division 2 winner, Division 3 winner (should they qualify, not guaranteed) and Tailteann Cup winner should also be awarded 2 home games.
3. If any of the Division or Tailteann winners wins their province, or Division 3 winner has not qualified, a Seed 2 team can benefit from the vacant home advantage spot(s)
Seeds 1 and 2 with 2 home games:
1* 2, 3
2* 3, 4
3- 4
4- 1
Seeds 1 and 3 with 2 home games:
1* 2, 3
2- 4
3* 2, 4
4- 1
Seeds 1 and 4 with 2 home games:
1* 2, 3
2- 3
3- 4
4* 1, 2
A Tailteann Cup winner with 2 home games will give them 2 high profile home games. If they can cause an upset in one of those, they'll have a great chance of progressing.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 09/03/2022 17:50:42    2404668

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Replying To PK57:  "Any two tier system should simply be based on league standings alone. The provincial system makes no sense, having teams of all different standard play in 4 different championships with a different number of teams in each is not a way to determine championship placings."
Rome wasn't built in a day. The Super 8 has been expanded to 16. The Tailteann Cup is also an increase from 8 to 16 from the previous competition. The top isn't so exclusive and Tier 2 is not so exclusionary.
Instead of having qualifiers, non-provincial finalists are ranked based on the league. Most are ok with that. 8 provincial spots and 8 league spots is a fair starting point.
An important component is meaningful reward for winning your province. It's a puzzle for the powers that be to solve.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 09/03/2022 18:07:34    2404673

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Replying To skirge7:  "Provincials need to go. Two tiers of 16 one up one down. And if the gaps get to big go to 3 tiers 12, 12 and the rest junior.

Meath women won the intermediate and then the senior the following year. So it can be done."
1 up and 1 down would be terrible.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 09/03/2022 19:54:32    2404692

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Replying To skirge7:  "Provincials need to go. Two tiers of 16 one up one down. And if the gaps get to big go to 3 tiers 12, 12 and the rest junior.

Meath women won the intermediate and then the senior the following year. So it can be done."
Ladies and men adult football aren't really comparable. A so called lesser team reaching a provincial final brings a lot more interest to players and supporters in that county than B All Ireland final ever would, especially the current B AI in place.

Gaa_lover (USA) - Posts: 3353 - 09/03/2022 20:00:53    2404693

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Provincial winners are to be the top seeds. There has to be meaningful reward for being top seeds.
2 home games suggestion:
1. Provincial winners awarded 2 home games.
2. Division 1 winner, Division 2 winner, Division 3 winner (should they qualify, not guaranteed) and Tailteann Cup winner should also be awarded 2 home games.
3. If any of the Division or Tailteann winners wins their province, or Division 3 winner has not qualified, a Seed 2 team can benefit from the vacant home advantage spot(s)
Seeds 1 and 2 with 2 home games:
1* 2, 3
2* 3, 4
3- 4
4- 1
Seeds 1 and 3 with 2 home games:
1* 2, 3
2- 4
3* 2, 4
4- 1
Seeds 1 and 4 with 2 home games:
1* 2, 3
2- 3
3- 4
4* 1, 2
A Tailteann Cup winner with 2 home games will give them 2 high profile home games. If they can cause an upset in one of those, they'll have a great chance of progressing."
I see what you're saying but I don't agree with you.

A competition should have everyone on an equal footing. I wouldn't try to even the provincials by incentivising that way, because then you create an imbalance in the next round. Double home advantage is exactly that: an advantage.

All this complication is there just to save the provincials which aren't worth saving.

Greenfield (Meath) - Posts: 522 - 09/03/2022 20:24:03    2404695

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Provincial winners are to be the top seeds. There has to be meaningful reward for being top seeds.
2 home games suggestion:
1. Provincial winners awarded 2 home games.
2. Division 1 winner, Division 2 winner, Division 3 winner (should they qualify, not guaranteed) and Tailteann Cup winner should also be awarded 2 home games.
3. If any of the Division or Tailteann winners wins their province, or Division 3 winner has not qualified, a Seed 2 team can benefit from the vacant home advantage spot(s)
Seeds 1 and 2 with 2 home games:
1* 2, 3
2* 3, 4
3- 4
4- 1
Seeds 1 and 3 with 2 home games:
1* 2, 3
2- 4
3* 2, 4
4- 1
Seeds 1 and 4 with 2 home games:
1* 2, 3
2- 3
3- 4
4* 1, 2
A Tailteann Cup winner with 2 home games will give them 2 high"
?? are you Omahant's twin?

TerraPovera (Leitrim) - Posts: 3 - 09/03/2022 21:39:26    2404703

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Rome wasn't built in a day. The Super 8 has been expanded to 16. The Tailteann Cup is also an increase from 8 to 16 from the previous competition. The top isn't so exclusive and Tier 2 is not so exclusionary.
Instead of having qualifiers, non-provincial finalists are ranked based on the league. Most are ok with that. 8 provincial spots and 8 league spots is a fair starting point.
An important component is meaningful reward for winning your province. It's a puzzle for the powers that be to solve."
If a new championship was being created tomorrow there is zero chance it would contain a different number of teams in 4 groups and teams of all different standards, that alone is unfair. On top of that, a team that has earned the right to play division 2 football should not be relegated out of the top tier due to a division 3 or 4 team making their provincial final. There is also zero logic in teams playing in a lower standard in the league then receiving a hammering from a top team in their province before returning to play at division 3/4 level in the Tailtean Cup. Teams should earn their Championship place through the league and no where else.

PK57 (Louth) - Posts: 1656 - 10/03/2022 09:38:02    2404713

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Replying To PK57:  "If a new championship was being created tomorrow there is zero chance it would contain a different number of teams in 4 groups and teams of all different standards, that alone is unfair. On top of that, a team that has earned the right to play division 2 football should not be relegated out of the top tier due to a division 3 or 4 team making their provincial final. There is also zero logic in teams playing in a lower standard in the league then receiving a hammering from a top team in their province before returning to play at division 3/4 level in the Tailtean Cup. Teams should earn their Championship place through the league and no where else."
I agree with you but at the same time you have to be realistic with what can be achieved within the politics of the GAA.

I can get behind provincial champions deserving a guaranteed place in the last 16 as a nod to tradition and maintain some link. Provincial champions are top seeded then as the incentive.

I don't like finalists reaching the top tier at the expense of league teams.

Better still it'd be good if league was just championship and teams just played in 2 groups of 8 in both tiers and the top teams move forward into the knockout rounds and bottom teams in tier 1 were relegated.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 10/03/2022 09:57:52    2404717

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The reality of the Teacup is that division two teams will be doing their utmost not to be in it. So that doesn't make it sound like a cup that is beneficial to anyone.

Leitrim_12 (USA) - Posts: 207 - 10/03/2022 10:29:06    2404727

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Replying To kentuckytucky:  "The reality of the Teacup is that division two teams will be doing their utmost not to be in it. So that doesn't make it sound like a cup that is beneficial to anyone."
Premier League teams do their utmost to not be in The Championship, if they find themselves there they then do their utmost to get out of it. That's what makes it competitive.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 10/03/2022 11:10:36    2404739

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Premier League teams do their utmost to not be in The Championship, if they find themselves there they then do their utmost to get out of it. That's what makes it competitive."
But it isn't competitive, if that is your meaning, only 3 teams maybe are likely winners of the premiership. Nobody knows who will win the Championship, it is a far more competitive league than the premiership.

What this new super 16 and discarded 16 Teacup competitions means is the same teams will be fighting for the all Ireland except without the nuisance 'weaker' counties blocking their path and perhaps injuring their players in games they or the GAA don't want but the Teacup players want.

Leitrim_12 (USA) - Posts: 207 - 10/03/2022 11:52:36    2404753

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Premier League teams do their utmost to not be in The Championship, if they find themselves there they then do their utmost to get out of it. That's what makes it competitive."
Except in that scenario teams know the competition they are competing In at the start of the season. There will be division 3 and 4 teams In provincial semi finals not knowing until after that game what competition they will compete in. By making the league the sole way of deciding championship places you ensure teams know the level they are competing at by the end of the spring. Instead every mention of the Tailtean Cup is teams trying to avoid it.

PK57 (Louth) - Posts: 1656 - 10/03/2022 11:58:13    2404754

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Replying To PK57:  "Except in that scenario teams know the competition they are competing In at the start of the season. There will be division 3 and 4 teams In provincial semi finals not knowing until after that game what competition they will compete in. By making the league the sole way of deciding championship places you ensure teams know the level they are competing at by the end of the spring. Instead every mention of the Tailtean Cup is teams trying to avoid it."
I agree with what you're saying. I hate the provincial finalists getting a spot and have flagged that as a problem.

I do think though that once the field is set, as badly as that is decided, that from that point on their is incentive for most teams to give their all to win it and not have to play it the following season.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 10/03/2022 12:50:39    2404764

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