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Football Super 16 For 2023 Onwards

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Replying To Mayonman:  "When you see the success of junior/intermediate club all Ireland competition it makes you wonder why the same can't happen at I/C level.

Either way all counties get into race for Sam it's just that only counties that have earned it get a second chance.

One aspect that probably needs to be looked at is seeding of provincial championships. Potentially based on league position."
The ladies have adopted the same format (Junior/Intermediate/Senior) very successfully..

Senior men's football seems to be a very different and complicated beast.

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 08/03/2022 14:42:01    2404469

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Replying To kentuckytucky:  "Tiered competitions haven't brought on meaningful competition at the top level in hurling though. We've been here before with football with the b all ireland and the tm cup but they both faded away."
I don't know about that with regards hurling. It could be argued that hurling is relatively strong in the developing Leinster counties like Laois, Carlow, Westmeath. Hurling has made strides in Meath at club and inter county level over the last 10-15 years. Kerry hurling has had some success too. I think Antrim are playing more competitive fixtures and hope that the future is bright for us.

Sometimes these things get measured by how much impact is made on the senior championship and I'm not sure if that's always the best metric.

Also the likes of Wexford and Clare who were at the weaker end of the elite teams have been consistently competitive for a while and are playing more games that might not be feasible without a tiered structure.

In football I don't think all 2nd tier championships are created equally and this competition feels much better designed than it's predecessors.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 08/03/2022 14:54:56    2404474

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "They already get 7 competitive games in the League. I think we'll see a lot of players go off to America rather than stick around for a second rate competition with little coverage."
I don't know, I think the America pull is sometimes overdone. Yeah you'll lose student age players and those with fewer life commitments but I mean what can you do. These people go off anyway as is, I don't see it likely to get worse.

What happened that you're no longer an advocate of the 4 groups of 4 system?

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 08/03/2022 14:57:34    2404477

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I don't know, I think the America pull is sometimes overdone. Yeah you'll lose student age players and those with fewer life commitments but I mean what can you do. These people go off anyway as is, I don't see it likely to get worse.

What happened that you're no longer an advocate of the 4 groups of 4 system?"
4 groups of 4 would be fine if there was promotion/relegation like the club championships. No provincial places, no prelimary quarter finals which just drag it out. And I've noticed a lack of interest in the Tailtean this year and that doesn't bode well. I just think a Tier 2 is never going to work.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 739 - 08/03/2022 15:01:18    2404479

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "I think the oul Munster, Leinster and All Ireland SHCs are pretty meaningful!"
I meant to say teams that won in the tiered comps haven't progressed in the main competitions such as you mentioned in the hurling

Leitrim_12 (USA) - Posts: 207 - 08/03/2022 15:09:06    2404481

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Replying To kentuckytucky:  "I meant to say teams that won in the tiered comps haven't progressed in the main competitions such as you mentioned in the hurling"
There's a top 9 in Hurling which are ahead if the rest.
There are only 7 Counties where hurling is the majority gaelic sport.
That won't be changing any time soon.
Tiered competitions in hurling mean all the Counties play in a Championship they have some hope of winning.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1438 - 08/03/2022 15:44:14    2404490

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Is it not a case where there will always be weaker county's that win nothing no matter what competition there is?

There seems to be a desperation to make weaker county's into Dublin. No offence but Leitrim will never be competitive in the All Ireland with there population and finance. I mean look at other sports, for every Manchester United there is Shrewsbury Town. For every New Zealand in rugby there is a Romania.

Same goes for about 70% of teams. Can make them more competitive by pumping money into youth structures and getting the right coaches into so called weaker teams. But the T Cup will always be a B competition.

The_Fridge (Tyrone) - Posts: 2088 - 08/03/2022 15:56:24    2404492

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "4 groups of 4 would be fine if there was promotion/relegation like the club championships. No provincial places, no prelimary quarter finals which just drag it out. And I've noticed a lack of interest in the Tailtean this year and that doesn't bode well. I just think a Tier 2 is never going to work."
The Tailteann this year is stupid given it doesn't have a place in next year's Sam Maguire and is straight knockout.

I think having lower level teams have a guaranteed 4 championship fixtures, a league that counts towards championship too is a big step forward.

A Tailteann team coming second in their group and getting to a TC final gets 7 fixtures from May to July. That's good quality.

You just can't give teams more meaningful games without tiering the competition.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 08/03/2022 15:59:38    2404493

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The only way the wider GAA public is going to care about Antrim footballers is if we improve and we're not going to do that sat on our hands while the Kerry's and Dublin's of this world are getting 3 times the number of competitive championship fixtures at the best time to play football than we get.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 08/03/2022 16:02:57    2404495

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "There's a top 9 in Hurling which are ahead if the rest.
There are only 7 Counties where hurling is the majority gaelic sport.
That won't be changing any time soon.
Tiered competitions in hurling mean all the Counties play in a Championship they have some hope of winning."
All good points. I think people over estimate what a good championship structure can do.

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 08/03/2022 16:11:43    2404496

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Replying To Whammo86:  "The Tailteann this year is stupid given it doesn't have a place in next year's Sam Maguire and is straight knockout.

I think having lower level teams have a guaranteed 4 championship fixtures, a league that counts towards championship too is a big step forward.

A Tailteann team coming second in their group and getting to a TC final gets 7 fixtures from May to July. That's good quality.

You just can't give teams more meaningful games without tiering the competition."
Will there be Tailteann all-stars whammo?

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 08/03/2022 16:16:51    2404498

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Replying To Whammo86:  "The Tailteann this year is stupid given it doesn't have a place in next year's Sam Maguire and is straight knockout.

I think having lower level teams have a guaranteed 4 championship fixtures, a league that counts towards championship too is a big step forward.

A Tailteann team coming second in their group and getting to a TC final gets 7 fixtures from May to July. That's good quality.

You just can't give teams more meaningful games without tiering the competition."
3 games against counties from Div 3 and 4 is not going to bring Antrim on. Call them championship fixtures if you want but it doesn't matter if they are played in front of poor crowds with minimal coverage. Tailteann will just turn into the hurling tiers. Most counties will be out by May and most club championships won't kick off until September so 3 months of summer with no intercounty football.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 739 - 08/03/2022 16:35:02    2404502

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "3 games against counties from Div 3 and 4 is not going to bring Antrim on. Call them championship fixtures if you want but it doesn't matter if they are played in front of poor crowds with minimal coverage. Tailteann will just turn into the hurling tiers. Most counties will be out by May and most club championships won't kick off until September so 3 months of summer with no intercounty football."
It could bring us on. The level that we've been at from the last 10 years is probably Tailteann cup round 2 or quarterfinal level. We reach a semi final or final in that competition we've either improved or are playing a team that's better than us. That's how you improve every step at the time.

If we won Tailteann we'd get 3 games against division 1 and 2 standard teams, which is more than we get in championship in an average 5 year span in the qualifiers.

The Tailteann cup shouldn't be judged in isolation, it's the whole system that can be of benefit.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 08/03/2022 17:36:09    2404519

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Replying To The_Fridge:  "Is it not a case where there will always be weaker county's that win nothing no matter what competition there is?

There seems to be a desperation to make weaker county's into Dublin. No offence but Leitrim will never be competitive in the All Ireland with there population and finance. I mean look at other sports, for every Manchester United there is Shrewsbury Town. For every New Zealand in rugby there is a Romania.

Same goes for about 70% of teams. Can make them more competitive by pumping money into youth structures and getting the right coaches into so called weaker teams. But the T Cup will always be a B competition."
I agree with you but there's zero wrong with weaker teams playing at their own level. The alternative is them just not playing at all.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 08/03/2022 17:37:15    2404520

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Replying To Mayonman:  "When you see the success of junior/intermediate club all Ireland competition it makes you wonder why the same can't happen at I/C level.

Either way all counties get into race for Sam it's just that only counties that have earned it get a second chance.

One aspect that probably needs to be looked at is seeding of provincial championships. Potentially based on league position."
Agreed. Connaught and Munster should draw teams 3&4 against teams 5&6 in their quarter-finals. Teams 1&2 should be kept apart in the semi-final draw.
Ulster should have teams 8&9 in the preliminary round. Teams 1-4 drawn against the rest in the quarter-final draw.
Leinster should draw teams 6-8 against teams 9-11 in their preliminary round. Teams 1-4 against the rest in the quarter-final draw.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 08/03/2022 18:38:28    2404529

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Replying To Whammo86:  "The Tailteann this year is stupid given it doesn't have a place in next year's Sam Maguire and is straight knockout.

I think having lower level teams have a guaranteed 4 championship fixtures, a league that counts towards championship too is a big step forward.

A Tailteann team coming second in their group and getting to a TC final gets 7 fixtures from May to July. That's good quality.

You just can't give teams more meaningful games without tiering the competition."
The Tailteann Cup this year isn't guaranteed to be 16 teams. Next year it will be a set 16. The winner next year is the 17th team in the championship and their reward is a Top 16 place in the following year.
Teams who are not making provincial finals, and have a low league ranking, should be utilising the Tailteann Cup. When a Division 3 or 4 county is seen to be utilising the Tailteann Cup to get into the All-Ireland series, others will be determined to follow.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 08/03/2022 18:47:06    2404530

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I agree with you but there's zero wrong with weaker teams playing at their own level. The alternative is them just not playing at all."
Yeah that's true to be fair. Listen im willing to see how it goes. Im just not that confident it will be a success. I hope it does and will be happy to be proven wrong.

The_Fridge (Tyrone) - Posts: 2088 - 09/03/2022 10:51:36    2404574

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The Tailteann Cup this year isn't guaranteed to be 16 teams. Next year it will be a set 16. The winner next year is the 17th team in the championship and their reward is a Top 16 place in the following year.
Teams who are not making provincial finals, and have a low league ranking, should be utilising the Tailteann Cup. When a Division 3 or 4 county is seen to be utilising the Tailteann Cup to get into the All-Ireland series, others will be determined to follow."
Exactly, totally agree.

A team getting relegated from division 2 in March 2023 and finding themselves in the 2023 Tailteann cup is unlikely to have the league as a pathway to the 2024 Sam Maguire cup, (promoted division 3 teams have some chance of making the top championship but it's far from guaranteed and involves only top teams or the previous year's Tailteann winner taking up all the Provincial finalists spots).

A Down, Armagh, Meath or Cork finding themselves in this boat will be taking Tailteann cup very seriously.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 09/03/2022 10:55:56    2404575

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A team which deservedly find themselves in a second level Competition have 2 choices
Try their best to win it and get back to Level 1
Or
Moan and whinge and try to get it abolished.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1438 - 09/03/2022 11:20:49    2404585

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Exactly, totally agree.

A team getting relegated from division 2 in March 2023 and finding themselves in the 2023 Tailteann cup is unlikely to have the league as a pathway to the 2024 Sam Maguire cup, (promoted division 3 teams have some chance of making the top championship but it's far from guaranteed and involves only top teams or the previous year's Tailteann winner taking up all the Provincial finalists spots).

A Down, Armagh, Meath or Cork finding themselves in this boat will be taking Tailteann cup very seriously."
Works the other way too.
Teams who qualify through the league will have no reason to take the provincial competition seriously so they could end up being lob sided wastes of time.
Eg this year you could easily see Mayo, Galway and Roscommon qualified through the league. Why would they then risk players in a meaningless provincial campaign? So Sligo, Leitrim or london could sneak through to a Connacht final and there's 5 championship slots gone.
Involving the provincials in any shape skews the whole thing and makes it a bit of a sham.

Greenfield (Meath) - Posts: 522 - 09/03/2022 12:08:40    2404593

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